closed Thread

[jomar]

Too early.

A bit. But they do it for everyone and nobody goes from top to bottom or vice versa

What you don't seem to understand is that Trump took a side and stuck with.

No, I get what side trump is on

Iran killed hundreds of US soldiers so he chose Iran as a bad guy.

Cite? I didn’t see anything.

He had Iran at the brink of total financial collapse.

trump does love those sanctions

The Israelis proved to Trump that Iran was cheating during the JPCOA

They convinced him, huh? That seems suspicious in and of itself.

and pulled us out while applying crippling sanctions

Yes, because trump wanted to undo everything Obama and now Iran is closing in on nuclear capability, not to mention funding Hamas

all the while framing the foundation for the Abraham accords.

Which has been ok, but not really groundbreaking

Peace everywhere.

Yes, trump alone can keep the world from conflict and war! Seems we’re back to luck

He told Putin not to invade Ukraine,

And Putin listened to trump because he respected his foreign policy and worldview. Give me a break.

since the targeted strikes in Syria Putin thought Trump was nuts enough to follow through with war against Russia.

Now we’re onto something. Could be bad actors were a bit twitchy about trump’s impulsiveness and sanity

What do we have now. 3 dead service members and on the brink of world war 3.

Damn Biden for being a responsible leader on the world stage! trump alone could get us out of these desperate times! Meanwhile, I guess he’s busy supporting congress in securing our southern border

 

[silky52]

How much of that aid actually went to the Palestinians and how much went to tunnel systems and weapons.

I'd venture to say around 5%! Today they found tunnels in the Sinai, plus stolen arms there from all over the world. Some from Israel too, so some swine sold IDF arms to Hamas-ISIS too!

 

[Lazaran]

ineedhelp1 doesn’t dispute that the corrupt orange traitor destabilized, provoked and inflamed with various policies and actions, but then posits that the corrupt orange traitor bears no responsibility for the negative events that resulted from those policies and actions.



ineedhelp1

 

[silky52]

You don't think killing 500+ US military in Iraq entitled Soleimani to a dirt nap. We should consider taking out the Mullahs and free the people of Iran from this authoritarian theocracy.

We've tried to establish a peace solution in Palestine since the Kissinger days.

Way before Kissinger's days! Try again!

 

[ll74]

Will this help guide actions at all? I have my doubts.

Biden administration discussing slowing some weaponry deliveries to Israel to pressure Netanyahu

 

[policywank]

Diplomacy and negotiation are important elements of international relations. However, their effectiveness is undermined or even negated if one refuses to consider alternative approaches. The other party will realize that they can jamb you up by being intransigent, then just go ahead and do whatever they were going to do anyway. There has to be a point at which one is willing to walk away from the discussions (negotiating 101) and take more aggressive action. What that action ought to be and the point at which one walks away are obviously highly subjective - but if one does not recognize that these are critical factors, efforts are highly unlikely to be fruitful.

Meanwhile, if and when military action is taken one must recognize that this may have been the least bad alternative. It is naive to compare that outcome to some idealized version of how things could have been in a perfect world. It must be compared to a reasonable assessment of what would have happened had the action not been taken. One must recognize that there are situations where failure to act in a forceful way could be fatal.

And in assessing all of these things one must know your opponent. If things got overheated and both parties are looking for a way out of the mess they have gotten into, chances are something can be achieved with concessions and intervention from a neutral 3rd party. Places like Cyprus and Northern Ireland cooled down largely because the populations involved on both sides got sick of fighting. Outside parties helped bring those situations around, but they would not have been able to magically do so if the parties to the conflict weren't interested in peace.

Iran and its proxies in the region have openly declared their lack of interest in peace. They will take every chance they get to strike at Israel and/or the U.S. They aren't looking for an olive branch or any off ramp. They are a hostile enemy that would have already destroyed the U.S or Israel if they thought they had the forces to do it. Would an attack on Iran or their proxies bring them closer to doing something reckless? Maybe. Will letting them get away with aggression embolden them? Yes. Unfortunately, history seems to have shown that Iran behaves best when they think that POTUS just might unload a can of whoop ass on them.

 

[Rightguide]

"What you don't seem to understand..."


Never a good starting to an argument.

I noticed you failed to present a credible rejoinder.

 

[Lazaran]

Diplomacy and negotiation are important elements of international relations. However, their effectiveness is undermined or even negated if one refuses to consider alternative approaches. The other party will realize that they can jamb you up by being intransigent, then just go ahead and do whatever they were going to do anyway. There has to be a point at which one is willing to walk away from the discussions (negotiating 101) and take more aggressive action. What that action ought to be and the point at which one walks away are obviously highly subjective - but if one does not recognize that these are critical factors, efforts are highly unlikely to be fruitful.

Meanwhile, if and when military action is taken one must recognize that this may have been the least bad alternative. It is naive to compare that outcome to some idealized version of how things could have been in a perfect world. It must be compared to a reasonable assessment of what would have happened had the action not been taken. One must recognize that there are situations where failure to act in a forceful way could be fatal.

And in assessing all of these things one must know your opponent. If things got overheated and both parties are looking for a way out of the mess they have gotten into, chances are something can be achieved with concessions and intervention from a neutral 3rd party. Places like Cyprus and Northern Ireland cooled down largely because the populations involved on both sides got sick of fighting. Outside parties helped bring those situations around, but they would not have been able to magically do so if the parties to the conflict weren't interested in peace.

Iran and its proxies in the region have openly declared their lack of interest in peace. They will take every chance they get to strike at Israel and/or the U.S. They aren't looking for an olive branch or any off ramp. They are a hostile enemy that would have already destroyed the U.S or Israel if they thought they had the forces to do it. Would an attack on Iran or their proxies bring them closer to doing something reckless? Maybe. Will letting them get away with aggression embolden them? Yes. Unfortunately, history seems to have shown that Iran behaves best when they think that POTUS just might unload a can of whoop ass on them.

A good take on the situation and the options.

I would say, however, that the world economy and inflation are affecting (to some extent) the calculus of the U.S. response.

Even a slightly disproportional military response toward Iran would likely trigger a spike in oil prices / inflation and rattle the world economy.

President Biden has been careful to authorize carefully considered proportional military responses in the wake of recent attacks that send a message without triggering an out of control chain reaction.

The very definition of “threading the needle”.

I expect President Biden will continue to “thread the needle” with proportional military responses unless these attacks on U.S. forces become more frequent and more deadly.

*nods*

 

[ll74]

I noticed you failed to present a credible rejoinder.

Lol.

 

[Rightguide]

Iran and its proxies in the region have openly declared their lack of interest in peace. They will take every chance they get to strike at Israel and/or the U.S. They aren't looking for an olive branch or any off ramp. They are a hostile enemy that would have already destroyed the U.S or Israel if they thought they had the forces to do it. Would an attack on Iran or their proxies bring them closer to doing something reckless? Maybe. Will letting them get away with aggression embolden them? Yes. Unfortunately, history seems to have shown that Iran behaves best when they think that POTUS just might unload a can of whoop ass on them.

My feeling is we should go after Iran, they use proxies for a reason, to protect themselves from blame. We have hit them in the past and they've done nothing. We need to hit them again and when doing so forget this nonsense about a "proportional response." If we do hit them, it should be with overwhelming force with a crippling result if we're looking for effective deterrence. The targets should be their leadership, strategic economic targets, and or their ability to make war, including their nuclear capabilities.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Bernie Sanders is fed up with Israel

"The United States must make clear to Netanyahu that we will not provide another dollar to support his inhumane, illegal war"

Robnote: I've begun to suspect that Netanyahu has lost control of this war. He appears clueless, and three ultra-right fringe members of his cabinet ("Messianic Jews") are driving policy now. My understanding is that Netanyahu was given support by the ultra-right Messianic party in exchange for key cabinet positions, something he had not needed in order to govern in the past. I might be wrong here, I'm no expert on Israeli internal government scheming...and I'm sure someone here will correct me if I've made so much as a spelling error.

 

[ll74]

Well this is an interesting turn of events
This actually could be a catalyst moving things in the right direction if it pushes through

UK considering recognising Palestine state, Lord Cameron says​

 

[Rightguide]

Bernie Sanders is fed up with Israel

"The United States must make clear to Netanyahu that we will not provide another dollar to support his inhumane, illegal war"

Robnote: I've begun to suspect that Netanyahu has lost control of this war. He appears clueless, and three ultra-right fringe members of his cabinet ("Messianic Jews") are driving policy now. My understanding is that Netanyahu was given support by the ultra-right Messianic party in exchange for key cabinet positions, something he had not needed in order to govern in the past. I might be wrong here, I'm no expert on Israeli internal government scheming...and I'm sure someone here will correct me if I've made so much as a spelling error.

Biden won't do that. Netanyahu is the longest-serving Prime Minister and the first to be native-born in Israel and the first to be directly elected by popular vote. He is a well-known leader of the Likud Party. He has many supporters both at home and abroad, and enemies as well. He tough and now he's a wartime leader, I believe he'll leave his blood in the dirt of Israel before accepting defeat. Like Churchill who would have sacrificed all for Britain and seen them through to victory, Bebe could be tossed aside when it's all over. Right now I think he's safe for the duration. Like you, I could be wrong as well.

 

[ll74]

Biden won't do that. Netanyahu is the longest-serving Prime Minister and the first to be native-born in Israel and the first to be directly elected by popular vote. He is a well-known leader of the Likud Party. He has many supporters both at home and abroad, and enemies as well. He tough and now he's a wartime leader, I believe he'll leave his blood in the dirt of Israel before accepting defeat. Like Churchill who would have sacrificed all for Britain and seen them through to victory, Bebe could be tossed aside when it's all over. Right now I think he's safe for the duration. Like you, I could be wrong as well.

He should be ousted from office as his policies directly led to the Oct 7 attack on Israel not to mention his offensive campaign has not achieved any security or release of the majority of hostages.

 

[silky52]

Bernie Sanders is fed up with Israel

"The United States must make clear to Netanyahu that we will not provide another dollar to support his inhumane, illegal war"

Robnote: I've begun to suspect that Netanyahu has lost control of this war. He appears clueless, and three ultra-right fringe members of his cabinet ("Messianic Jews") are driving policy now. My understanding is that Netanyahu was given support by the ultra-right Messianic party in exchange for key cabinet positions, something he had not needed in order to govern in the past. I might be wrong here, I'm no expert on Israeli internal government scheming...and I'm sure someone here will correct me if I've made so much as a spelling error.

Well, if you didn't talk such nonsense we wouldn't need to correct you!!!

Please note: Messianic Judaism is a modernist and syncretic movement of Protestant Christianity that incorporates some elements of Judaism and other Jewish traditions into the Christian movement of evangelicalism.

Should those in the government such as Ben Gvir and Smotrich and his party hear of your description they would probably have heart attacks, which might get rid of them, but I doubt it! They are FYI right wing orthodox Jews such as are found in the Chabad Movement, (which they do not belong to) which you may have heard of. Please get your facts right!!

As for your information Netanyahu has not lost control of the war. He is not clueless and as much as I can't stand the sight of him he does know what he is doing, and those idiots that you call Messianic are not driving policy, although they like to think they are. He has always needed a coalition government, but that is how Israeli politics work.

 

[silky52]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-s...g-oct-7-like-attack-hiding-in-jenin-hospital/

 

[silky52]

Well this is an interesting turn of events
This actually could be a catalyst moving things in the right direction if it pushes through

UK considering recognising Palestine state, Lord Cameron says​

I very much doubt it! The UK has very little standing in Israel.

 

[silky52]

Biden won't do that. Netanyahu is the longest-serving Prime Minister and the first to be native-born in Israel and the first to be directly elected by popular vote. He is a well-known leader of the Likud Party. He has many supporters both at home and abroad, and enemies as well. He tough and now he's a wartime leader, I believe he'll leave his blood in the dirt of Israel before accepting defeat. Like Churchill who would have sacrificed all for Britain and seen them through to victory, Bebe could be tossed aside when it's all over. Right now I think he's safe for the duration. Like you, I could be wrong as well.

I hope you are wrong. He's a liar, a thief, narcissist and trying to escape prosecution. He will not admit responsibility for the atrocities that were committed by Hamas-ISIS on October 7th. He is a coward. However, you are right he has a lot of supporters, both in Israel and abroad. I sincerely hope he does not get in again. Just like the US we need new blood and maybe someone who is only partially corrupt. IMHO all politicians are corrupt.

 

[ll74]

I very much doubt it! The UK has very little standing in Israel.

Lol...of course it doesn't

 

[ShandyLeer]

I very much doubt it! The UK has very little standing in Israel.

All the more reason to do it then.

 

[silky52]

All the more reason to do it then.

You would need the agreement of the Arabs for that, which is unlikely. They have been offered such solutions numerous times, but all they can do is sing: From the river to the sea!! I hope you realise how serious that is, and exactly what they mean. If you don't, then just take a look at what happened on October 7th!

 

[ShandyLeer]

You would need the agreement of the Arabs for that, which is unlikely. They have been offered such solutions numerous times, but all they can do is sing: From the river to the sea!! I hope you realise how serious that is, and exactly what they mean. If you don't, then just take a look at what happened on October 7th!

I think the intent is symbolic. Everyone knows a fix that doesn’t result in a state for the Palestinians isn’t a fix at all. They are no less, and no more, entitled to that than you are.

I totally understand the significance of the insinuation of the words and the history the Palestinian leadership has over the years of getting to the point of a deal then backing out. I get it that Israel is surrounded by enemies of one sort or another, and is a perpetual powder keg.

Its why a proper peace deal would be welcome, except to messianic headcases.

 

[silky52]

I think the intent is symbolic. Everyone knows a fix that doesn’t result in a state for the Palestinians isn’t a fix at all. They are no less, and no more, entitled to that than you are.

I totally understand the significance of the insinuation of the words and the history the Palestinian leadership has over the years of getting to the point of a deal then backing out. I get it that Israel is surrounded by enemies of one sort or another, and is a perpetual powder keg.

Its why a proper peace deal would be welcome, except to messianic headcases.

We need a real peace, with people who don't hate us. I do believe that most of the so-called Israeli-Arabs would be up for it. However, what are you going to do, herd all the Arabs that live in Israel into a Palestinian State? It's a terrible dilemma, and up to recently I have always believed that those who wish to should live in their own state. The question is would they leave us alone then? Would there be no more trouble? Would there be no more slaughter? It's not what Hamas-ISIS and their ilk are after. They are after the destruction of the Jewish people from the river to the sea. Nothing new about that, antisemitism has been around since the Jews refused to convert to Islam! It's all so sad.

 

[ll74]

We need a real peace, with people who don't hate us. I do believe that most of the so-called Israeli-Arabs would be up for it. However, what are you going to do, herd all the Arabs that live in Israel into a Palestinian State? It's a terrible dilemma, and up to recently I have always believed that those who wish to should live in their own state. The question is would they leave us alone then? Would there be no more trouble? Would there be no more slaughter? It's not what Hamas-ISIS and their ilk are after. They are after the destruction of the Jewish people from the river to the sea. Nothing new about that, antisemitism has been around since the Jews refused to convert to Islam! It's all so sad.

You can have real peace with people who do hate you.

 

[silky52]

You can have real peace with people who do hate you.

Indeed!! You are pretty naive, if you think that, and have never come across a Hamas-ISIS operative!! Have you ever been to the Middle East?