How EV sales are losing momentum with US buyers

[TastySuckToy]

Yes, that's the key. The biggest problem in my opinion is the range per charge. Cars can easily get 300 miles/480 km per tank and it takes 10 minutes to refill a tank.. While EVs get 100/300 miles 160km/480 km per charge it takes 6-10 hours to charge an EV.. I don't believe physics will allow for a quicker charge time so until the range per charge reaches 600-900 miles/480km-1440km ICE will rule the roads..

Technological progress on EVs already beats ICE. For example:

https://carboncredits.com/toyota-re...ery-with-745-mile-range-cuts-emissions-by-39/

745 mile range, 10 minute charging times, very quick googling on my part. This is just one of many battery technologies in development; others include elimination of issues like fire/explosion hazard, cold environment operation/charging, etc.

It's not a question of if, but only when, EV technology dramatically surpasses ICE. I've been watching technologies like this for some time. The ICE era simply has historical momentum and familiarity going for it. EVs will rapidly replace them sooner than people think, especially with the ongoing breakthroughs in materials and manufacturing technologies.

 

[John_von_Neumann]

It's simple. I read the news that Ford is slashing it's EV production by 50% because of unsold inventory. Chevy, Toyota, and the rest are following suit.

If the manufacturers aren't producing because the product isn't selling that SHOULD BE ringing a bell somewhere inside your head that whatever source you're listening to that says differently is lying to you.

Great. Now tell us about the sales of top EV manufacturers, rather than the also rans, dumbass.

 

[Rick345]

745 mile range, 10 minute charging times, very quick googling on my part. This is just one of many battery technologies in development; others include elimination of issues like fire/explosion hazard, cold environment operation/charging, etc.

I agree it's not if its when. Toyota says 745/10 by 2028-29 so by 2030 I think EVs will rule the highways soon after.

It would be interesting to see what problems EVs will bring...

In 1903 people in New York City were literally up to their knees in horse shit. When the horseless carriage came along they were a godsend just a little smoke out the tailpipe not to mention they didn't get sick, and were more reliable....

When Henry Ford figure how to lower the price by mass production horses were quickly replaced as day to day transportation. And nowadays the car is the number one polluter and killer in America and I would guess Canada as well.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I'd like to have a Ford F-150 Lightening. I buy old clunkers though that last me 200,000 miles. I have another 100,000 to go on my current F-150.

Living in coal country, I fully support coal powered EVs.

 

[Chernosoth]

Technological progress on EVs already beats ICE. For example:

https://carboncredits.com/toyota-re...ery-with-745-mile-range-cuts-emissions-by-39/

745 mile range, 10 minute charging times, very quick googling on my part. This is just one of many battery technologies in development; others include elimination of issues like fire/explosion hazard, cold environment operation/charging, etc.

It's not a question of if, but only when, EV technology dramatically surpasses ICE. I've been watching technologies like this for some time. The ICE era simply has historical momentum and familiarity going for it. EVs will rapidly replace them sooner than people think, especially with the ongoing breakthroughs in materials and manufacturing technologies.

The batteries are still made with lithium. We're using all the lithium we can get for a tiny percentage of car production and some disposable batteries. When there's no lithium left to mine, that's the EV fad gone, along with some disposable batteries. There is still the energy cost per mile, including the mining and manufacturing. If that is still higher than gas cars, then the EV fad disappears as energy gets more expensive. The entire car market will shrink and disappear. We will run out of energy for road maintenance and oil for asphalt. Concrete will become scarce as we run out of builder grade sand, which comes from rivers, lakes, and beaches, not deserts. Some town roads may be cobblestone or something similar while others are dirt roads, walking paths, or blaze your own trail.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The batteries are still made with lithium. We're using all the lithium we can get for a tiny percentage of car production and some disposable batteries. When there's no lithium left to mine, that's the EV fad gone, along with some disposable batteries.

Change lithium to oil and batteries to ICE's. Oh and show me the post of yours like this about oil and ICE's.

Nostradumbass

 

[TastySuckToy]

The batteries are still made with lithium. We're using all the lithium we can get for a tiny percentage of car production and some disposable batteries. When there's no lithium left to mine, that's the EV fad gone, along with some disposable batteries. There is still the energy cost per mile, including the mining and manufacturing. If that is still higher than gas cars, then the EV fad disappears as energy gets more expensive. The entire car market will shrink and disappear. We will run out of energy for road maintenance and oil for asphalt. Concrete will become scarce as we run out of builder grade sand, which comes from rivers, lakes, and beaches, not deserts. Some town roads may be cobblestone or something similar while others are dirt roads, walking paths, or blaze your own trail.

You're clearly not following battery developments if you think lithium or rare earth materials are an unsolvable problem.

Nor are you following global trends in energy production and developments. We have no shortage of energy, we get tens of thousands times more than we need from solar alone. Solar is already the cheapest form of energy, the EROEI was passed years ago, we're adding hundreds of gigawatts of capacity per year, the cost of it keeps going down. The objections to solar are based upon old information or lack of information on all the new ongoing developments.

Peak Oil is an issue regarding our hunter gather method of obtaining it, but given we're creating synthetic oil and going to be replacing massive consumption sectors of it, it's not the end times issue some think it is.

Despite the pessimistic nature of so many people arguing about the future, we're rapidly heading into an era of abundance of resources and energy.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Peak Oil is an issue regarding our hunter gather method of obtaining it, but given we're creating synthetic oil and going to be replacing massive consumption sectors of it, it's not the end times issue some think it is.

While I agree with most of what you stated, I'm having trouble with this part about synthetic oil. To be clear 90% of today's "synthetic oil" is made from standard crude oil. There is also recycled "synthetic oils,made from used crude, which is about 5%. There is also some block chain "synthetic oils" made from renewable plants and trees, but that is only a small portion and extremely expensive at this point in time.

We are not ever going to replace our 400 million year old crude, with modern "synthetic oil" and carry on with ICE's as we do today.

 

[TastySuckToy]

While I agree with most of what you stated, I'm having trouble with this part about synthetic oil. To be clear 90% of today's "synthetic oil" is made from standard crude oil. There is also recycled "synthetic oils,made from used crude, which is about 5%. There is also some block chain "synthetic oils" made from renewable plants and trees, but that is only a small portion and extremely expensive at this point in time.

We are not ever going to replace our 400 million year old crude, with modern "synthetic oil" and carry on with ICE's as we do today.

Poor clarification on my part. I was referring to developments where we have technologies like genetically engineered bacteria that are producing practical amounts of actual crude oil we can process into products, including gasoline. But as you said, not for sustaining a gasoline guzzling fleet of ICEs, but for the many other products we create, like plastics, etc. Which we can then recycle using other genetically engineered organisms that consume plastic and break it down into reuseable materials, including feeding the afore mentioned crude oil equivalent producing organisms.

It's in the same field of technologies whereas we solved the issue of fertilizer supply by engineering crops/bacteria hybrids that extract nitrogen directly out of the atmosphere, thus eliminating the issue of nitrogen fertilizer products, since our atmosphere is approximately 78% nitrogen.

 

[Chernosoth]

You're clearly not following battery developments if you think lithium or rare earth materials are an unsolvable problem.

Nor are you following global trends in energy production and developments. We have no shortage of energy, we get tens of thousands times more than we need from solar alone. Solar is already the cheapest form of energy, the EROEI was passed years ago, we're adding hundreds of gigawatts of capacity per year, the cost of it keeps going down. The objections to solar are based upon old information or lack of information on all the new ongoing developments.

Peak Oil is an issue regarding our hunter gather method of obtaining it, but given we're creating synthetic oil and going to be replacing massive consumption sectors of it, it's not the end times issue some think it is.

Despite the pessimistic nature of so many people arguing about the future, we're rapidly heading into an era of abundance of resources and energy.

I generally ignore the glowing reports from hustlers running subsidy dumpsters.

A future of energy abundance would be nice, but just assuming we will have one, without preparing for energy scarcity, can lead to cold nights of shivering in darkness.

 

[TastySuckToy]

I generally ignore the glowing reports from hustlers running subsidy dumpsters.

A future of energy abundance would be nice, but just assuming we will have one, without preparing for energy scarcity, can lead to cold nights of shivering in darkness.

Nothing wrong with preparation and skepticism.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Poor clarification on my part. I was referring to developments where we have technologies like genetically engineered bacteria that are producing practical amounts of actual crude oil we can process into products, including gasoline. But as you said, not for sustaining a gasoline guzzling fleet of ICEs, but for the many other products we create, like plastics, etc. Which we can then recycle using other genetically engineered organisms that consume plastic and break it down into reuseable materials, including feeding the afore mentioned crude oil equivalent producing organisms.

It's in the same field of technologies whereas we solved the issue of fertilizer supply by engineering crops/bacteria hybrids that extract nitrogen directly out of the atmosphere, thus eliminating the issue of nitrogen fertilizer products, since our atmosphere is approximately 78% nitrogen.

Ok, I see what you were going for. Yes bio engineering will be an interesting field in the near future.

 

[Chobham]

GM is investing over $500 million in it's next gen small block V8 while closing down it's EV lines.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

GM is investing over $500 million in it's next gen small block V8 while closing down it's EV lines.

Ummm not exactly true. Yes GM is investing in it's next gen V8, It is not closing down EV lines. Fuck do you even read the articles or just grab the headlines and make up your own ideas?

From EVERY article I have read the plant will also produce components for EV's.

"It's no secret that General Motors (GM) is investing heavily in electrification. The company plans to introduce 30 vehicles worldwide by the end of the decade, 20 of which will be offered in Canada. That includes those already announced, like the Equinox EV and Blazer EV.

That doesn’t mean the auto giant is done with combustion engines of course. In fact, the company has just announced it is going to invest 854 million USD to produce a sixth-generation small-block V8 engine. The first such engine appeared for the first time back in the mid-1950s. "

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/gm-investment-small-blockv8-engine/69990/

Now this part is what you dumbfucks don't understand, with the exception of the battery,EV are way cheaper to produce. Electric motors are running at 98% efficiency. You don't need endless computer control to make them run clean,unlike in new ICE vehicles. Hell a new F-150 ICE has over 80 computers on board. While the lightning has 8.....

Once the battery issues are improved (and improve they will) Auto manufactures will bail on making them, faster than Chubby and AJ's posts get debunked.

 

[Chobham]

Over 400 Ford dealers have told Ford, "Nope, we aren't going to invest $$$$$$ to sell that shit and you can't make us."

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Over 400 Ford dealers have told Ford, "Nope,

True

we aren't going to invest $$$$$$ to sell that shit and you can't make us."

but the reason isn't the EV's, it's the fee's...

An Automotive News report last week revealed Ford would ease EV dealer requirements following “changes in the market.” The program has been met with its fair share of criticism. Last week, Illinois’ state motor vehicle board handed Ford dealers a victory after about 26 of them argued the company’s EV program violated state laws.

But hey, you keep looking for those headlines and make these idiotic posts without actually reading the articles. It's too fucking funny!!!

 

[ishtat]

It might be useful to throw in a few facts:

November 2023 sales figures for EV's world wide by manufacturer/Model.

1 Tesla Y 115,000
2 Tesla 3 54,327
3 BYD Song 44,327
4 BYD Dolphin 41,063
5 BYD Atto 3 33,076
6 Wu Ling Hong Mini 24,032 (GM has a 33% interest)
7 Wu Ling Bingo 22,722
8 GAC Aion 22,666
9 VW ID4 16,948
10 VW ID3 16237

Ford about 2,000 for the month GM about 4,500. Tesla sold 1.8 million EV's in 2023, BYD 1.6 million but BYD overtook Tesla sales in the final quarter.

Some additional facts: 37% of the worlds EV's run CATL batteries 17% run BYD . LG the main non-Chinese supplier has just had its GM contract cancelled due to technical issues.

Prices. Tesla has reduced prices by about 10% in the year. BYD sells the Seagull for under USD 12,000 in China, the Dolphin for under $20,000 and the Atto 3 for under $27,000.

It looks fairly dire for the US EV industry but it has some major advantages and additional disadvantages of its own. Most important, the USA has access to cheaper Oil and Gas than any other 1st world economy. That will buy it time, more time than currently envisaged. Its current EV products are massively overpriced, and massively subsidized by US taxpayers. It is in better shape than the Europeans and Japs because firstly the US sells a far smaller % of product overseas, secondly the EU and Japan have no cheap energy resources and thirdly almost all Jap and European sales in E.Asia have collapsed in 2023.

 

[Chobham]

It might be useful to throw in a few facts:

November 2023 sales figures for EV's world wide by manufacturer/Model.

1 Tesla Y 115,000
2 Tesla 3 54,327
3 BYD Song 44,327
4 BYD Dolphin 41,063
5 BYD Atto 3 33,076
6 Wu Ling Hong Mini 24,032 (GM has a 33% interest)
7 Wu Ling Bingo 22,722
8 GAC Aion 22,666
9 VW ID4 16,948
10 VW ID3 16237

Ford about 2,000 for the month GM about 4,500. Tesla sold 1.8 million EV's in 2023, BYD 1.6 million but BYD overtook Tesla sales in the final quarter.

Some additional facts: 37% of the worlds EV's run CATL batteries 17% run BYD . LG the main non-Chinese supplier has just had its GM contract cancelled due to technical issues.

Prices. Tesla has reduced prices by about 10% in the year. BYD sells the Seagull for under USD 12,000 in China, the Dolphin for under $20,000 and the Atto 3 for under $27,000.

It looks fairly dire for the US EV industry but it has some major advantages and additional disadvantages of its own. Most important, the USA has access to cheaper Oil and Gas than any other 1st world economy. That will buy it time, more time than currently envisaged. Its current EV products are massively overpriced, and massively subsidized by US taxpayers. It is in better shape than the Europeans and Japs because firstly the US sells a far smaller % of product overseas, secondly the EU and Japan have no cheap energy resources and thirdly almost all Jap and European sales in E.Asia have collapsed in 2023.

To be clear, I have no objection to EV's. Where they make sense by all means look into buying one.

What I am pointing out is that there are a great many unresolved problems with the vehicles due to the immaturity of the technology. Starting with the fact that moving the pollution from X to Y doesn't begin to solve the asserted problem. An EV has to be driven for 10 years to cross the "Carbon Neutral" threshold. Few of them are going to last that long.

There is no economical way to recycle the batteries as we speak. That issue will be resolved............eventually but that day is relatively far in the future. (Or you can save your worn out batteries, the lithium in indispensable if you want to make a home made thermo-nuclear weapon.)

Even minor accidents can result in the total write off of the vehicle if the integrity of the battery shield is in question.

Miles between charges are quoted for new vehicles and that distance diminishes over time. There is nothing that can be done to address that issue.

Because of the battery degradation issue EV's are losing resale value faster than ICE powered vehicles. Astronomically so in some cases.

Another issue that is seldom addressed is the battery replacement problem. First of all there is the expense. But what is not talked about is that the manufacturer is under no long term obligation to produce the same battery pack year after year, or the motor's for that matter. As styles and technology moves forward the design of each will change and backwards compatibility is neither to be expected nor required. While you may be able to pull a motor out of a wrecking yard not so for the battery pack.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

To be clear, I have no objection to EV's. Where they make sense by all means look into buying one.

Yah sure, you've harped against them for a while now. STFU, people can buy what they want, and governments can act in the best interests of the people and the planet.

What I am pointing out is that there are a great many unresolved problems with the vehicles due to the immaturity of the technology. Starting with the fact that moving the pollution from X to Y doesn't begin to solve the asserted problem. An EV has to be driven for 10 years to cross the "Carbon Neutral" threshold. Few of them are going to last that long.

Bullshit. Toyota has been making Hybrids for decades, many are still on the road to this very day, go check out a Corolla website.

There is no economical way to recycle the batteries as we speak. That issue will be resolved............eventually but that day is relatively far in the future. (Or you can save your worn out batteries, the lithium in indispensable if you want to make a home made thermo-nuclear weapon.)

Not that far in the future, more like today....also not all EV's and Hybrids use Lithium, there is a fair share of Nickle Metal Hydrate ones as well. Mines a 2023 and is NImIhi.

Even minor accidents can result in the total write off of the vehicle if the integrity of the battery shield is in question.

true, but so what, they wrote off my Rav4 ICE from a 10 mile an hour rear end collision. Seems they hit just right to bend the uni frame and the pan. Accidents and write off's are a fact of driving.

Miles between charges are quoted for new vehicles and that distance diminishes over time. There is nothing that can be done to address that issue.

Same is true of ICE's. As the engine wears, so does the economy, another straw-man argument, by the King of Straw-men.

Because of the battery degradation issue EV's are losing resale value faster than ICE powered vehicles. Astronomically so in some cases.

https://www.kbb.com/used-cars/
Fill your boots and back up your claim.

Another issue that is seldom addressed is the battery replacement problem. First of all there is the expense.

See below for the video and cost....

But what is not talked about is that the manufacturer is under no long term obligation to produce the same battery pack year after year, or the motor's for that matter.

Nor should they be. They should be allowed to change the battery to newer upgrades. Remember the D cell flashlights, well they work just as good on rechargable batteries as Alkaline ones, but last longer....More Straw-man

As styles and technology moves forward the design of each will change and backwards compatibility is neither to be expected nor required.

Irrelevant.

While you may be able to pull a motor out of a wrecking yard not so for the battery pack.

Not true for either. The electric motors, like ICE motors are vehicle specific as are the physical dimensions of the battery packs.

 

[John_von_Neumann]

An EV has to be driven for 10 years to cross the "Carbon Neutral" threshold. Few of them are going to last that long.

This information, much like yourself, is obsolete. That ten year figure comes from a debunked Facebook meme.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Still a growing market but growth in the US continues to hit speed bumps.

Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars​

Hertz's decision underscores the bumpy road EVs have hit as the growth rate on sales of those vehicles has slowed, causing carmakers like General Motors (GM.N) and Ford (F.N) to scale back production plans of those vehicles.

Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas in a note said the car rental firm's move was a warning across the EV space and it was another sign that EV expectations need to be "reset downward across the market."

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...rtz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

 

[HisArpy]

Still a growing market but growth in the US continues to hit speed bumps.

Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars​

Hertz's decision underscores the bumpy road EVs have hit as the growth rate on sales of those vehicles has slowed, causing carmakers like General Motors (GM.N) and Ford (F.N) to scale back production plans of those vehicles.

Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas in a note said the car rental firm's move was a warning across the EV space and it was another sign that EV expectations need to be "reset downward across the market."

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...rtz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/

I'd consider picking one up as a 2nd vehicle but Hertz has them overpriced for the market and condition. 75K miles is a lot of miles on the battery pack. Buying one from Tesla usually means they put in a new pack. Not so if buying from Hertz.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I'd consider picking one up as a 2nd vehicle but Hertz has them overpriced for the market and condition. 75K miles is a lot of miles on the battery pack. Buying one from Tesla usually means they put in a new pack. Not so if buying from Hertz.

I wouldn't buy any rental car with 75k. Up here they get turned over by the time they reach 15K.

 

[Chernosoth]

I heard of Rivian a while ago and ignored it, since my budget is never close to a new truck. But damn, it's ugly. Like the Tesla truck and nearly everything in the new car market.
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2022-rivian-r1t-first-edition-urbano-103-1643302430.jpg?crop=0.391xw:0.293xh;0.426xw,0.401xh&resize=1200:*

 

[Chernosoth]

If an EV could be only slightly more complicated than kids' powered riding toys, then I could see a little bit of future for EVs. I don't see a future for the bloat wagons loaded with unnecessary hardware and software.