Interethnic Sex

[PastMaster]

And that's fine; there is a place for offensive art, including erotica. But it's like my old English teacher used to say, "Understand the rules before you break the rules."

If someone is crafting something in a way that's intended to be offensive, fine. I probably won't engage with it, but I won't pooh pooh those that do; I used to laugh my ass off at South Park, Bill Hicks, Dennis Leary, etc. Those guys were trying to piss people off and make them laugh at the same time; it's not my jam anymore, but to each their own.

Things like sensitivity readers are there specifically for the people that aren't trying to offend people. Note that I said "not trying to offend people," not "trying to not offend people." The latter leads to weasel words, the kind of corporate doublespeak that I think you and PastMaster are trying to avoid.

The former, though, is just an admission that not everyone can know everything. If your goal is not to offend, if it's just to write an interesting story about something like a Black man and a white woman falling in love, and you have very little experience with Black culture, why wouldn't you both do your research and ask someone afterwards that does have that experience, "Hey, does this seem write?" A sensitivity reader is just the formalization of that process, asking a person with specialized knowledge first "does this seem right," and afterwards, "did I nail that?"

There's a certain level of arrogance that says "you shouldn't be offended," or "people didn't used to be offended by this." No, they probably were, they just didn't say anything, because they felt, rightly or wrongly, unsafe about doing so. If you want to write a good story, like I said, use the resources available to you. You can still push ahead without them, or ignore their input, but there are literally people that will look at your shit for free and help you make it better/more accurate. Why wouldn't you?

I guess my problem, then, is with the label of 'sensitivity reader'. It has connotations that i disagree with in literature.

I do - if writing about cultures, and things i do not have first hand knowledge of, research and try and get things accurate - I have, for instance, had several long conversations with trans members here as i am writing a trans character into one of my stories. If that is what is meant by a sensitivity reader then I'm all for that.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I guess my problem, then, is with the label of 'sensitivity reader'. It has connotations that i disagree with in literature.

I do - if writing about cultures, and things i do not have first hand knowledge of, research and try and get things accurate - I have, for instance, had several long conversations with trans members here as i am writing a trans character into one of my stories. If that is what is meant by a sensitivity reader then I'm all for that.

Pretty much, yeah. You ask ahead of time, "hey, here's my general idea, does this sound accurate/not offensive?" And then afterwards you let them take a look at it and say, "okay, did I get any of the detail wrong, or did I put my foot in my mouth here and say something insulting?"

 

[PastMaster]

Pretty much, yeah. You ask ahead of time, "hey, here's my general idea, does this sound accurate/not offensive?" And then afterwards you let them take a look at it and say, "okay, did I get any of the detail wrong, or did I put my foot in my mouth here and say something insulting?"

Then it's my bad for misinterpreting the idea.

I stand by my point about being able to challenge people and ideas in writing, but to have someone 'cast an eye' as you describe for accuracty and unintentional faux-pas is no a bad shout

 

[NoTalentHack]

I'll just add this: from a reach standpoint, it can be a real boon. Sensitivity readers will sometimes hype your work with them, because it's partially their work, in the same way that editors do. It's a good way to expand your readership as well as improve quality.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I had it pointed out some years ago that in efforts to be more inclusive, majority people need to be willing to go ahead and try, and accept sometimes they'll make mistakes. If authors for example only write about their own characteristics, people in currently under-represented groups will be waiting a very long time for the few already-underrepresented authors to write about them.

Even if I get feedback on a Lit story that it's so terrible that I agree I should take the story down pending a rewrite, it's not like having to recall and pulp hardcopy books that have been distributed all over - I don't lose anything. So when writing a story I wasn't sure I knew enough about - I grew up where the only ethnic minority was Irish, and it was dinned into me that you never try to explain the Troubles, or even speak of the Troubles, if you're not from NI - I edited the hell out of it, and eventually decided to post it. No complaints, though not that many people have read it.

I was way less concerned about representing a British Bangladeshi guy, given the story didn't go into that much detail of his life beyond working in a gas station. It wasn't a stereotypical story for several reasons. A bunch of people liked that white wasn't the default and thanked me for it, which was nice, but I didn't write it for that reason - I'd been inspired quite simply by a hot guy working in the local gas station store!

While my young childhood was very white, after that I've been surrounded by very diverse people. Often when needing a random character I might look across the street or office and use them, though for main characters I choose features I know a bit about at least. I had a generic character recently where I nicked speech patterns off a few friends, then realised after her story went live that she must be from Malaysia or Singapore. So I ran with that for her second story, giving her the background similar to some friends of mine, though what's in the resulting story is a few dialect phrases and her repeatedly grumbling that England isn't set up for people under 5'2"...

Various characters from around the world pop up in my stories especially with a series about international science conferences, so lots of people get a couple sentences. A couple people have said they like that; again, no-one's said I've said anything terrible.

Sensitivity readers are a great idea but sometimes they just don't exist (or a few people of whatever minority group get overwhelmed - bit like the daily requests I get to be an obviously-disabled interviewer to make the panel diverse...) I'm about to publish a trans story which is based on friends' experiences, but I'm not going to ask them to do work that's likely emotionally draining just so other people can get their rocks off. After a few months and some requests I've had someone look who has a bit more up-to-date knowledge than I do. We'll see how it goes down.

 

[SimonDoom]

There's a certain level of arrogance that says "you shouldn't be offended," or "people didn't used to be offended by this." No, they probably were, they just didn't say anything, because they felt, rightly or wrongly, unsafe about doing so. If you want to write a good story, like I said, use the resources available to you. You can still push ahead without them, or ignore their input, but there are literally people that will look at your shit for free and help you make it better/more accurate. Why wouldn't you?

I don't quite agree with you on this. One person's offense is no more privileged than another person's pleasure. A person who insists upon being offended and tries to coerce another person into abiding by that person's sense of offense is every bit as arrogant as the person who says you shouldn't be offended.

You raise an interesting empirical question. Is it true that in the past people were just as offended, but didn't speak out about it? I don't know. I don't think you do either, or that anyone else here knows for sure. In the past were people as offended by Huckleberry Finn and To Kill a Mockingbird the way they are now, but just didn't speak up about it? I don't know, but I doubt it. I think we have embraced a somewhat new culture of offense where people are looking for ways to be offended where in the past they were not as offended. I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject or to know for sure, but that's my sense. It would be a difficult thing to prove, one way or another. But I think we have become very silly on the subject of taking offense. I grew up with the "sticks and stones" concept, and I still believe that, and I think it's a better and more civilized way to live. I don't think it's any more arrogant to say "people should lighten up" than it is to say "we should be offended."

 

[PastMaster]

I don't quite agree with you on this. One person's offense is no more privileged than another person's pleasure.

Sadly that is no longer the case.
These days in most arena's all one has to say is - that's offensive - or I'm offended by that, and it's game over.
I loved the interview with Jordan Peterson

where he reversed the position with cathy newman

 

[MelissaBaby]

I guess my problem, then, is with the label of 'sensitivity reader'. It has connotations that i disagree with in literature.

I do - if writing about cultures, and things i do not have first hand knowledge of, research and try and get things accurate - I have, for instance, had several long conversations with trans members here as i am writing a trans character into one of my stories. If that is what is meant by a sensitivity reader then I'm all for that.

Back on Page 1, I discussed running racial issues past my husband, and no one seems to have seen that as an objectionable practice. Same thing, no label.

 

[PastMaster]

Back on Page 1, I discussed running racial issues past my husband, and no one seems to have seen that as an objectionable practice. Same thing, no label.

exactly that - it was the label rather than the practice I had a problem with, and then only because i misinterpreted the role of such a reader

 

[MelissaBaby]

Sadly that is no longer the case.
These days in most arena's all one has to say is - that's offensive - or I'm offended by that, and it's game over.

Yeah, you never even hear about Dave Chappelle or Louis CK anymore...

 

[MelissaBaby]

exactly that - it was the label rather than the practice I had a problem with, and then only because i misinterpreted the role of such a reader

Good conversation, then, understanding advanced all around.

 

[SparrowUnit]

I love you...
No - I dont thin people would be better of if people were more insensitive.

I do, howeve think, that people, in general, need to be a little less quick to take offence and automatically assume that what was written was meant in the worst possible way that it could be interpreted.

As Ricky Gervais said - if someone says they're offended - he says 'yeah so what?'

People seem to be looking for reasons to be offended these days.

I'm not talking about blatent and out an out racism or sexism or any other ism. Those are and should be challenged at every turn. But if we censor - and I use the word advisedly - every word that we speak or write for fear of offending someone, then we lose the opportunity to challenge people and challenge ideas.

I agree that a lot of people definitely ARE looking for a reason to be offended. We now live in a world with many special snowflakes, or maybe we always have but it's okay now to feel attacked/offended/whatever. I'm not sure that plays a major role in writing smut, but who knows?

re: interethnic (which, I'm guessing is a somehow more agreeable variation of interracial.)
I think the perpetually regurgitated "BBC that ruins marriages, addicts innocent, giant-titted Blondes, and ultimately leads to said Blonde's BF/Hubby becoming addicted as well, but in spite of that, we need to repeat BBC, or 'black cock' in nearly every sentence of the story" is boring, lazy and a half-dozen other things. I think it's refreshing when I read a story that includes multiple ethnicities, that can (but doesn't need to.) include those ethnicities into the story, but it never becomes the story's major theme.

 

[Duleigh]

I've written a lot of interethnic stories and have had a lot of fun with the characters, and my readers really love them. I have nearly half a million words posted on a interethnic couple the MMC was white, the FMC was Asian and their ratings are quite high. I did a quick 750 word story on them and I put the story in the Interracial category and it's the lowest rated story I have. I fully intend to do another 750 story on them next year, almost exactly the same story, it will be easy to do, but I will put it in Romance and see what the ratings are. Then I think I'll write a little essay on my findings.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you are missing the point. There is a big difference between conscious intent to be transgressive or challenging, and unintentionally offending readers because you didn't understand some nuance in what you've written, which would be the point of using a sensitivity reader.

I'll confess that until today I had never heard of such a thing as a "sensitivity reader" and I did not know that such a thing existed.
Without coming on too strong or rendering a definitive opinion, which I'm not prepared to have on the subject, I'm somewhat skeptical that anyone is in a position to take this role. There's no neutral or objective way to be "sensitive," because in actual practice what it's likely to mean is "sensitive to my way of thinking."

 

[tenyari]

And why are the girls always white. It goes back to KKK crap about black men and “our womenfolk”.

Yep.

The history / facts on this stuff is EXTREMELY unpleasant...

If you look at DNA... in the USA "White People" have 1% Sub-Saharan African DNA - almost all of it from the maternal line. Meaning some ancestor was a Black Woman. The percentage implies (but doesn't prove) most of it dating to before 1865... "Black People" have 25% "Caucasian" DNA. Almost all of it from the paternal line. Some Ancestor was a White man, almost always a slave owner, though often also from the Jim Crowe era. The percentage would imply either there was a LOT of rape going on (known to be true) or it's still going on (also known to be true). The lopsided nature of this hints it at not being the result of voluntary inter-mixing - that would lead to mixed families and something like the Mulatto people of Latin America (where someone like me comes in).

The story here is that Black Woman were and continue to be raped by white men just as a matter of routine. Go to Starbucks and get your morning latte, rape a black woman, go to work, rape another black woman, go home, rape another black woman and then go to bed. Just a casual daily routine for "WASP" men up until very recently (about 5 minutes ago). I'm exaggerating but it's pretty recent that that was not too far off.

If you look at actual statistics on these things - the safest place a young naked very sexy looking white woman can be is in the middle of a pack of Black Guys. Ain't nobody gonna risk touching her. But every one of those Black men could be a dead man walking... Not too long ago and that was guaranteed. Stories like OJ's are extremely unusual. Obviously they exist, but that's not the norm no matter what the Klan claims.

 

[tenyari]

There's a marked difference between the sub-genre called "Interracial" and writing erotica that features people across ethnic lines being intimate.

It's pretty much just as easy to spot and avoid as the difference between writing a consensual vs nonconsensual sex scene. And actually for often the same kinds of reasons about tone, respect, character, etc.

Inter-ethnic romance and sex is basically the norm in a lot of the world now. In some place it has been for centuries, and in others this is a recent change. But it's pretty normal.

If you just treat the characters as individuals and not as fetish objects, there's very little risk of even coming across wrongly by accident.

You don't need to, in fact don't want to, erase people's ethnicities to do that. You just need to handle your characters as if they were fully fleshed out people.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'll confess that until today I had never heard of such a thing as a "sensitivity reader" and I did not know that such a thing existed.
Without coming on too strong or rendering a definitive opinion, which I'm not prepared to have on the subject, I'm somewhat skeptical that anyone is in a position to take this role. There's no neutral or objective way to be "sensitive," because in actual practice what it's likely to mean is "sensitive to my way of thinking."

If someone is writing about what it's like to be X, they are not X, and a beta-reader is X, then the author at least considering the beta-reader's views on being X might be an idea.

As an example, I've read a few stories where an author decides to have a deaf character and wants input from someone deaf. The stories vary but it's not uncommon for characters to magically learn the local sign language in a couple months (if only...), and for a deaf person to be dependent on the Lovely Saviour. Patronising as fuck, basically. It's annoying.

I wouldn't say I was 'offended' by such stories, and not just because certain people overreact to the word. I save my offence for people who have what they claim are solutions for deaf or disabled people and persuade funds to be spent on them, without actually consulting any of said deaf/disabled people to see if the thing would be useful. Bonus offence if they know their solution is useless but tout it anyway. Scammers.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Amongst others, they've dragged Roald Dahl through Sensitivity Readers. E.g.


Ian Fleming as well. He'd already indicated that some of his work had crossed his line.

Surely you understand the difference between altering an author's work after the fact, and an author seeking advise before publishing.

 

[alohadave]

I'll confess that until today I had never heard of such a thing as a "sensitivity reader" and I did not know that such a thing existed.
Without coming on too strong or rendering a definitive opinion, which I'm not prepared to have on the subject, I'm somewhat skeptical that anyone is in a position to take this role. There's no neutral or objective way to be "sensitive," because in actual practice what it's likely to mean is "sensitive to my way of thinking."

No one complete represents a group they belong to. They have their own experience that they bring to the table.

I was in the Navy, and if asked, I could tell you whether something reads right, or the tone is correct in general, and I can be more precise with things I've experienced directly. I can't speak for all veterans, as many had a different experience than I did. But I could tell you if something was wrong or didn't feel right.

You'd be free to use or disregard anything I tell you.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Surely you understand the difference between altering an author's work after the fact, and an author seeking advise before publishing.

Also Dahl's works are being edited for two reasons - one to keep them in the public eye and get more sales, and the other is that they're books that young children read alone, before they're old enough not to quote them in the playground. Given that, it's not such a bad idea to have editions for that purpose. No-one's suggested any editing of his books for adults or older readers, and classic editions will still be available.

He's dead and his estate think it's a good idea. Primary schools will be offered cheap sets of the mass-produced new books as a promotion. I suppose that means we're stuck with Roald Dahl dress-up day at primary schools for the foreseeable future, but thankfully I don't have any kids that age now.

 

[SimonDoom]

Also Dahl's works are being edited for two reasons - one to keep them in the public eye and get more sales, and the other is that they're books that young children read alone, before they're old enough not to quote them in the playground. Given that, it's not such a bad idea to have editions for that purpose. No-one's suggested any editing of his books for adults or older readers, and classic editions will still be available.

He's dead and his estate think it's a good idea. Primary schools will be offered cheap sets of the mass-produced new books as a promotion. I suppose that means we're stuck with Roald Dahl dress-up day at primary schools for the foreseeable future, but thankfully I don't have any kids that age now.

I think it's appalling. Dahl himself would probably be outraged if he were alive. It's incredibly disrespectful to him as an artist.

I don't understand this thinking at all. Kids are not as stupid as people seem to think they are. I read Huckleberry Finn as a child. It didn't make me use the N-word on the playground. I understood even as a child that the word was offensive and that racism and slavery were awful. There are so many assumptions built into this form of censorship that are completely unfounded. The right way to deal with culture from the past, IMO, is to deal with it unedited and unvarnished, and to learn that people in the past thought and behaved differently. That, after all, is the reality.

 

[alohadave]

I think it's appalling. Dahl himself would probably be outraged if he were alive. It's incredibly disrespectful to him as an artist.

I don't understand this thinking at all. Kids are not as stupid as people seem to think they are. I read Huckleberry Finn as a child. It didn't make me use the N-word on the playground. I understood even as a child that the word was offensive and that racism and slavery were awful. There are so many assumptions built into this form of censorship that are completely unfounded. The right way to deal with culture from the past, IMO, is to deal with it unedited and unvarnished, and to learn that people in the past thought and behaved differently. That, after all, is the reality.

My take is that the whole thing was a publicity stunt pushed by the estate and/or the publisher to drive sales. If people responded well, they have new editions to sell, if not, they can mea culpa and have reprints of the previous version ready to sell to those outraged.

It should also be noted that Dahl edited Willy Wonka back in the 70s when then movie was coming out. He changed the Oompa Loompas from pygmies to orange dwarves.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Maybe sometime we can have a discussion of racial issues in erotica that doesn't turn into a discussion of white male grievance.

 

[PastMaster]

Also Dahl's works are being edited for two reasons - one to keep them in the public eye and get more sales, and the other is that they're books that young children read alone, before they're old enough not to quote them in the playground. Given that, it's not such a bad idea to have editions for that purpose. No-one's suggested any editing of his books for adults or older readers, and classic editions will still be available.

He's dead and his estate think it's a good idea. Primary schools will be offered cheap sets of the mass-produced new books as a promotion. I suppose that means we're stuck with Roald Dahl dress-up day at primary schools for the foreseeable future, but thankfully I don't have any kids that age now.

The estate think it's a good idea because it's publicity and more sales as you say.

I'm skeptical about the rest - Kids have been reading Dahl and Dr Seuss (Also being 'edited') for generations with no problems - why all of a sudden are there issues. My other problem is that they are doing this at exactly the same time as they are advocating teaching primary school children about transgender and gender issues. I really dont see the consistency.

 

[SimonDoom]

Maybe sometime we can have a discussion of racial issues in erotica that doesn't turn into a discussion of white male grievance.

Maybe sometime we can have a discussion of racial issues in erotica without someone falsely claiming that disagreement is based on white male grievance. Wouldn't that be something. It would be nice to have a discussion that raises different points of view without one side accusing the other of having racially-based motives.