Loving Wives And The Incel Movement

[gordo12]

First of all, I think I owe a small apology to LC. I've seen his posts on the Incel movement and been guilty like a lot of people of just going yeah, yeah, heard it before, so what?

That was ignorant of me!

But I'm also going to say that there are clearly Incels in LW, but most people aren't! I've had too much feedback, votes, emails and comments to ever believe that.

This morning there was an article on the Incel movement in my newsfeed. It's written from a Canadian point of view, although the problem is clearly worldwide.

Some interesting facts: The incel movement was started by a woman. Originally, it was a lonely hearts club kind of thing where lonely people were welcomed regardless of gender or orientation. It's morphed.

A feminine version called Femcels reflects women expressing the same kind of views, except they want men. (Perhaps both movements should get together )

One of the more outrageous beliefs is the idea that Canada should start a state-organized girlfriend distribution program so these males can have sex. And monogamy should be enforced. (I guess it means sexual slavery for women )

It really represents a reprehensible train of beliefs among the male adherents. The more extreme examples have resorted to murder.

It's an eye-opening read, although I'm not too fond of the format. It's laid out with 25 pictures and explanations underneath. Well worth your time, however.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/a-look-inside-the-spine-chilling-incel-subculture/ss-AALZXon?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

 

[AngelRider]

Incels are nothing new. They just have a label now.

There have always been people who lack social skill and self esteem. They suffer from depression and often isolate themselves rather than seek help. The gross majority are not incels or femcels. Sometimes these traits are due to aspergers or being on the spectrum and other times there are external factors that have contributed to a person believing they have no value. Set aside the anger and hate we associate with the incel and manosphere movement. Consider what it must feel like to believe that you are ugly, that you have no value, that you have nothing to offer another person. I have observed it in my career many times, it is soulcrushing to observe that level of depression and low self esteem.

Now you have that person desperately trying to understand why they feel that way, why they cannot develop meaningful emotional and sexual relationships. Consider how freeing it may be to be told it isn't your fault, that women are all narcissistic hypergamist and mercenary sociopaths who only care about their self interests. If you are a woman then it's men only care about one thing, beautiful women with giant tits and could never possibly care about you. You find whole communities online which lead to groups in the world who have whole systems of thought designed to make you feel like a victim and as such it was never your fault at all. These groups target those men and women and of they can brainwash them into being militant, so much the better. The sad reality is they are victims, victims to their poor mental health, maybe horrible upbringing, maybe lack of proper attention and diagnosis from the schools and medicine and definitely victims of manipulation and coercion by the manosphere and antimale radical feminist groups (no not all feminists are radical man hating women).

As I wrote, they have always been around but social media gives them voice and the reaction to their provocations only draws more attention to their behavior. I actually feel bad for some because I believe their actions come from a place of desperation and cult like brainwashing. They believe they are owed something because they believe they have been harmed. As a group, the incel movement is terribly toxic, don't get me wrong. I can't write all of them off with a broad brush however because they are a mixture of misogynists who get off on gaslighting women and mentally ill men who need legitimate help.

The story you read was most certainly a product of a misogynistic piece of shit who is out to stir the pot, piss off women and feminist groups in order to draw comment. Nothing creates more incels and manosphere adherents than wide spread publication of toxic masculinity and rape culture theory. The two sides feed off each other. The sad truth. There are elements of truth on both sides. Women can be hypergamous and entitled. Some men do pressure women for sex and aren't above using coercion and manipulation to get it. These are obvious and there is an element of truth that our society has facilitated these behaviors. That however doesn't mean all men are like that or all women are like that. That all men are abusive sexual predators and boys need to be taught not to rape. Nor are all women these gentle nonviolent beings who never intentionally seek to harm others and certainly never with physical or sexaul violence. These are both bullshit beliefs intended to elevate one group over the other. The reality is we are all human and humans are a spectrum of saints to evil mother fuckers. Most of us are in between.

I try to remember that, call out hate when I see it but try to remember there is very often a damaged person behind the filth and bile. Sometimes things are black and white but in my experience there is far more nuance than certainty of fact.

First of all, I think I owe a small apology to LC. I've seen his posts on the Incel movement and been guilty like a lot of people of just going yeah, yeah, heard it before, so what?

That was ignorant of me!

But I'm also going to say that there are clearly Incels in LW, but most people aren't! I've had too much feedback, votes, emails and comments to ever believe that.

This morning there was an article on the Incel movement in my newsfeed. It's written from a Canadian point of view, although the problem is clearly worldwide.

Some interesting facts: The incel movement was started by a woman. Originally, it was a lonely hearts club kind of thing where lonely people were welcomed regardless of gender or orientation. It's morphed.

A feminine version called Femcels reflects women expressing the same kind of views, except they want men. (Perhaps both movements should get together )

One of the more outrageous beliefs is the idea that Canada should start a state-organized girlfriend distribution program so these males can have sex. And monogamy should be enforced. (I guess it means sexual slavery for women )

It really represents a reprehensible train of beliefs among the male adherents. The more extreme examples have resorted to murder.

It's an eye-opening read, although I'm not too fond of the format. It's laid out with 25 pictures and explanations underneath. Well worth your time, however.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/a-look-inside-the-spine-chilling-incel-subculture/ss-AALZXon?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

 

[LAHomedog]

First of all, I think I owe a small apology to LC. I've seen his posts on the Incel movement and been guilty like a lot of people of just going yeah, yeah, heard it before, so what?

That was ignorant of me!

But I'm also going to say that there are clearly Incels in LW, but most people aren't! I've had too much feedback, votes, emails and comments to ever believe that.

This morning there was an article on the Incel movement in my newsfeed. It's written from a Canadian point of view, although the problem is clearly worldwide.

Some interesting facts: The incel movement was started by a woman. Originally, it was a lonely hearts club kind of thing where lonely people were welcomed regardless of gender or orientation. It's morphed.

A feminine version called Femcels reflects women expressing the same kind of views, except they want men. (Perhaps both movements should get together )

One of the more outrageous beliefs is the idea that Canada should start a state-organized girlfriend distribution program so these males can have sex. And monogamy should be enforced. (I guess it means sexual slavery for women )

It really represents a reprehensible train of beliefs among the male adherents. The more extreme examples have resorted to murder.

It's an eye-opening read, although I'm not too fond of the format. It's laid out with 25 pictures and explanations underneath. Well worth your time, however.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/a-look-inside-the-spine-chilling-incel-subculture/ss-AALZXon?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

Who knew?! I guess I'm just an out-of-touch old fucker with his head in the sand. Guess I'll have to learn about all of this. Thanks... I guess

 

[gordo12]

Who knew?! I guess I'm just an out-of-touch old fucker with his head in the sand. Guess I'll have to learn about all of this. Thanks... I guess

That about describes me too!

 

[gordo12]

The story you read was most certainly a product of a misogynistic piece of shit who is out to stir the pot, piss off women and feminist groups in order to draw comment.

I don't agree with that. Newspapers, tv, magazines and news articles all thrive on the "if it bleeds, it leads" approach. Authors also use that approach. No one wants to write a boring story. Readers want the gory details REGARDLESS of what they say!

Calling the writer misogynistic is a little extreme.

 

[lovecraft68]

No need for any apology, I'm more well read on them then most people due to my causes and volunteer work, 'know thy enemy' but glad you looked into it.

As for the minority, 2-3 years ago I think they were. There's always been factions vocal against cheating, but incels are different and extreme breed. They have been getting more vocal and there seems to be more of them as time goes on.

Part of this is the growing movement(everything these days is a movement, thanks to divisive media, social media and politicians) on its own, another is all the incel authored stories appealing to their already pathological hatred of women who have the nerve to sleep with who they want and its not them.

I think the sad fact is as we all know, a small percentage of readers comment for whatever reason, but a very high percentage of trolls, especially these trolls, do so whether they are a statistical minority they have a much bigger presence thanks to it being too much work for the average person here to leave a comment.

Hate always advertises whereas decency seems to keep to itself, I suppose.

Not sure on the value of discussing it here, LW authors will pretend they're not fueling this and defend it, others simply still think its not real, and one way or another, what's to be done about it?

I used to wonder if writing taboo stories and those who write NC were encouraging what in real life is deviant and usually abusive behavior, but when looking at comments and also, at least with taboo, the fact the readers there want fun and flame anything abusive, I felt better about it

But when writing in a category with so much hate and rage and filled with just about every form of prejudice out there its a different story. I never advocate censorship, but hatespeech is not subject to free speech and its too bad the site wouldn't realize the attention that's going to be drawn to it because LE is tracking these fruits and following them all over the net to see what gets them going.

 

[EVSardis]

Not a Mental Health Issue

There have always been people who lack social skill and self esteem. They suffer from depression and often isolate themselves rather than seek help. The gross majority are not incels or femcels. Sometimes these traits are due to aspergers or being on the spectrum and other times there are external factors that have contributed to a person believing they have no value. Set aside the anger and hate we associate with the incel and manosphere movement. Consider what it must feel like to believe that you are ugly, that you have no value, that you have nothing to offer another person. I have observed it in my career many times, it is soulcrushing to observe that level of depression and low self esteem.

Now you have that person desperately trying to understand why they feel that way, why they cannot develop meaningful emotional and sexual relationships. Consider how freeing it may be to be told it isn't your fault, that women are all narcissistic hypergamist and mercenary sociopaths who only care about their self interests. If you are a woman then it's men only care about one thing, beautiful women with giant tits and could never possibly care about you. You find whole communities online which lead to groups in the world who have whole systems of thought designed to make you feel like a victim and as such it was never your fault at all. These groups target those men and women and of they can brainwash them into being militant, so much the better. The sad reality is they are victims, victims to their poor mental health, maybe horrible upbringing, maybe lack of proper attention and diagnosis from the schools and medicine and definitely victims of manipulation and coercion by the manosphere and antimale radical feminist groups (no not all feminists are radical man hating women).

As I wrote, they have always been around but social media gives them voice and the reaction to their provocations only draws more attention to their behavior. I actually feel bad for some because I believe their actions come from a place of desperation and cult like brainwashing. They believe they are owed something because they believe they have been harmed. As a group, the incel movement is terribly toxic, don't get me wrong. I can't write all of them off with a broad brush however because they are a mixture of misogynists who get off on gaslighting women and mentally ill men who need legitimate help.

The story you read was most certainly a product of a misogynistic piece of shit who is out to stir the pot, piss off women and feminist groups in order to draw comment. Nothing creates more incels and manosphere adherents than wide spread publication of toxic masculinity and rape culture theory. The two sides feed off each other. The sad truth. There are elements of truth on both sides. Women can be hypergamous and entitled. Some men do pressure women for sex and aren't above using coercion and manipulation to get it. These are obvious and there is an element of truth that our society has facilitated these behaviors. That however doesn't mean all men are like that or all women are like that. That all men are abusive sexual predators and boys need to be taught not to rape. Nor are all women these gentle nonviolent beings who never intentionally seek to harm others and certainly never with physical or sexaul violence. These are both bullshit beliefs intended to elevate one group over the other. The reality is we are all human and humans are a spectrum of saints to evil mother fuckers. Most of us are in between.

I try to remember that, call out hate when I see it but try to remember there is very often a damaged person behind the filth and bile. Sometimes things are black and white but in my experience there is far more nuance than certainty of fact.

While there may be incels who suffer from depression or other mental health issues, being involuntary celibate is certainly not a medical condition. To suggest so, is to say racism, misogyny or bigotry are medical or psychological conditions, also. That’s simply not true.

 

[gordo12]

To suggest so, is to say racism, misogyny or bigotry are medical or psychological conditions, also. That’s simply not true.

"A psychological disorder is a condition characterized by abnormal thoughts, feelings, and behaviors."

I would suggest by this definition that racism, bigotry and misogyny are psychological conditions.

 

[TadOverdon]

"A psychological disorder is a condition characterized by abnormal thoughts, feelings, and behaviors."

I would suggest by this definition that racism, bigotry and misogyny are psychological conditions.

Nah, the devil is in the word "abnormal." It's generally taken to mean things that are unusual and not "average," or that are uncommon within a group. And by any definition like that, many kinks and fantasies would represent, well, "psychological disorders."

Definitions like that are slippery things.

 

[lovecraft68]

I want to clarify in my comment about LE, that nothing is illegal to write, and as far as hate speech goes, I'm not 100% sure on the law as in can the site get in trouble, lit is a platform and not sure can be held accountable for what users say or use it

But one of the reasons that Laurel claims she doesn't want underage or rape isn't the legality, but the crowd the material draws which LE follows and who needs them crawling around?

And now that lit is screening comments they can no longer claim "well, there's thousands of comments a day, we don't know what everyone is saying because now they do see everything before they're approved.

Last point is if it has not happened yet, incels are going to be branded a hate group, if they are, then LE might be able to hold sites accountable for that type of speech which will be a big problem internet wide.

Just not sure why this crowd and LW is worth giving a pass to on all the crap there, but the site boots stories where people say they saw someone having sex when they were 15.

 

[gordo12]

Nah, the devil is in the word "abnormal." It's generally taken to mean things that are unusual and not "average," or that are uncommon within a group. And by any definition like that, many kinks and fantasies would represent, well, "psychological disorders."

Definitions like that are slippery things.

A very slippery slope. Are we saying that racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions?

Although, given all the kinks and fantasies represented here, I think we hit the motherlode of crazies.

 

[NotWise]

A very slippery slope. Are we saying that racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions?

Although, given all the kinks and fantasies represented here, I think we hit the motherlode of crazies.

I agree that being an incel (or a racist, bigot or misogynist) isn't a psychological illness. However, the article makes it clear that many self-indentified incels have abnormal psychological conditions, especially depression and suicidal thoughts.

 

[Bramblethorn]

A very slippery slope. Are we saying that racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions?

*looks around at the world*

Yup.

(remember, "normal" is orthogonal to "good")

 

[EVSardis]

"A psychological disorder is a condition characterized by abnormal thoughts, feelings, and behaviors."

I would suggest by this definition that racism, bigotry and misogyny are psychological conditions.

I think incel fits perfectly in a group with racism, bigotry and misogyny. It’s all a choice and abhorrent. If a racist, bigot, misogynist or incel happens to also suffer from mental health, that doesn’t excuse the choices they make.

 

[gunhilltrain]

A very slippery slope. Are we saying that racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions?

Although, given all the kinks and fantasies represented here, I think we hit the motherlode of crazies.

Few white people will say that they are racist or bigots, but how many of them live in mostly white neighborhoods? The vast majority of them, in fact. "Oh, the schools are better here," or something like that.

Ever see one of those maps that shows how segregated American cities are? Some of them show white, Black, Latino, and "Asian" (how do you define that?) neighborhoods. Yep, they're very segregated. In California, Chicanos are at odds with Blacks, and Blacks are at odds with Koreans. It's better in New York, but while people share workplaces and public spaces, in personal affairs they stick with others like themselves. No amount of good intentions can change that.

 

[SimonDoom]

We have to be careful about trying to shoe-horn all the Loving Wives unpleasantness into one description. It doesn't work that way and it's not true.

An "incel" is someone who doesn't have any sex and who blames women for the fact he's celibate. That describes some of the Loving Wives crowd, but not all of it.

There's another component: men who've been married or in relationships and feel they've been screwed over by their wives or girlfriends and are mad at the system. They enjoy stories where women get their comeuppance because they feel the system works against men. But they're not incels in any meaningful sense.

Then there are authors who write these stories that don't neatly fit in either of these categories. As I've pointed out, Blackrandi writes "revenge against cheating women" stories, and obviously she doesn't fit in these categories. She's not seething with rage about anything, as far as I can tell. There was a site event a little while back featuring these stories, and I don't think any of the authors fit clearly within these stereotypes.

In America, there's no such thing as "hate speech." You're free to hate things or people, and to communicate your hate. Some things and ideas are worth hating. Some aren't, but you're free to hate them anyway. That's what the First Amendment is about. It's not there to protect nice speech; it's there to protect speech that some people can't stand.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There have always been people who lack social skill and self esteem. They suffer from depression and often isolate themselves rather than seek help. The gross majority are not incels or femcels. Sometimes these traits are due to aspergers or being on the spectrum and other times there are external factors that have contributed to a person believing they have no value.

I agree that being an incel (or a racist, bigot or misogynist) isn't a psychological illness. However, the article makes it clear that many self-indentified incels have abnormal psychological conditions, especially depression and suicidal thoughts.

About that...

Article: "According to a Vice story, 78 per cent of incels report experiencing extreme loneliness, and 82 per cent have considered suicide." That's an accurate representation of the Vice story: "78 percent of incels reported suffering from extreme sadness and anxiety, while 82 percent have considered suicide".

But the source Vice gives for those claims is a page on "incels.wiki", which appears to be a site run by/for incels. Vice links to a "numbers" section that no longer exists on that page, and I can't find any numbers matching the ones claimed in Vice. I took a quick look through the article's history, and while I didn't find the source for Vice's claims, it looks like it's mostly relying on self-reporting surveys from specific incel forums. This is, to say the least, not a reliable source.

Plenty of autistic people do have trouble finding romantic or sexual partners. During my teens and early twenties I was miserable with the idea that I'd never find someone. And yet most of us don't turn that into hate for the ones we desire. I'm tired of seeing people suddenly announce that they're "autistic" the day after they get busted for something repugnant, like Kevin Spacey coming out as gay to deflect from his abuse of minors. I imagine people with depression and anxiety feel the same way.

As a favour to those of us who do have these conditions, when you see somebody attribute their asshole behaviour to mental illness/autism/Asperger's/etc., please stop and ask "is that actually true, or are they maybe just assholes using mental health issues as an excuse?"

 

[SimonDoom]

A very slippery slope. Are we saying that racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions?

)

Of course, they are. They've been with us forever. They persist in every country, and they always have.

Go back in time 50 years or so and do a mental assessment of what most people in all countries of the world thought. Wouldn't you characterize those beliefs as racist, bigoted, misogynistic, religiously biased, homophobic, and transphobic? Of course you would. And yet, those beliefs were "normal." The people who held those beliefs were nice to their kids and neighbors, did their daily jobs well, and were in most ways, productive citizens. "Normal" is not "good." But "bad" does not mean "psychologically disordered." Psychologically healthy people do bad things and commit crimes and elect fascist dictators and lynch people whose skin color is different from theirs. It's always been this way. This is why we need civilization. It provides necessary but razor-thin protection against falling back on our base instinct, which is to murder people different from us. That instinct is base and morally wrong, but it's not disordered or abnormal.

 

[Blind_Justice]

I can't speak for the LW readership, but I've lurked on an incel forum for a few days, trying to understand their mindset. I have never seen a similar cesspool of madness and delusion - and that's coming from someone who's been on the receiving end of a neonazi beatdown.

On the one hand these guys moan and cry how they, as the nice guys they are, seemingly can't get laid. And within the same breath they are totally okay with someone threatening to punish a woman who rejected him by throwing acid in her face and that of her friends.

It takes a special kind of crazy to call themselves "nice guy" and condone, no, encourage such violence. That place was an echo chamber for rabid animals and the few moderate voices with a hint of common sense were treated almost as bad as the girls which supposedly done them all wrong.

I'm not easily scared, but the idea of a frenzied incel deciding the day I'm buying new shoes is the day he gets his vengeance against society by plowing into a group of people with his car (as has happened last year in Trier) does it every time.

Since these guys are so desperate to get fucked: Let them have it - with a barbed wire dildo up the ass. Reap what you sow and then some.

 

[NotWise]

As a favour to those of us who do have these conditions, when you see somebody attribute their asshole behaviour to mental illness/autism/Asperger's/etc., please stop and ask "is that actually true, or are they maybe just assholes using mental health issues as an excuse?"

The incel's self-reported problems are (mostly) psychological. The problems you're sighting are (mostly) psychiatric.

From the original article and from what you've said, I don't see any reason to think the incels are trying to excuse their assholeness by citing psychological problems. I don't even see them as admitting to being assholes. They're simply admitting to anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts, which they probably blame on women. It gives them more reasons to resent women.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The incel's self-reported problems are (mostly) psychological. The problems you're sighting are (mostly) psychiatric.

I'm not sure I recognise the distinction you're making here.

There is a difference between "psychiatrists" and "psychologists" (a psychiatrist is a MD who can prescribe medications, a psychologist usually isn't and can't though exceptions exist). But there's a huge overlap in the conditions they treat; anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, and autism/Aspergers are all well within that overlap. I'm not aware of an acknowledged distinction between "psychological problems" and "psychiatric problems".

From the original article and from what you've said, I don't see any reason to think the incels are trying to excuse their assholeness by citing psychological problems. I don't even see them as admitting to being assholes. They're simply admitting to anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts, which they probably blame on women. It gives them more reasons to resent women.

I was responding there to a comment by AngelRider, who was suggesting depression and autism/Asperger's as factors feeding into the incel movement.

 

[XerXesXu]

I think there are plenty of communities where racism, bigotry and misogyny are normal conditions; some self-reflextion might be sobering.

For example, if 'racism' is considered 'judging on race' or 'judging on looks', I think there are very few people who can sincerely plead 'not guilty'; I definitely am guilty of doing so. Yesterday, my wife (Ethiopian), talked about the way black men treat their wives, and how that's different from white men. I believe that our mind functions because of generalization - simplification saves computational energy in the brain - and racism certainly is about generalization. It is a slope, though, how much you give in to that; how much you let it affect your judgement and your dealing with individual people.

I've book-marked Off the Beaten Track. Your other link seems to point to the wrong target.

 

[NotWise]

I'm not sure I recognise the distinction you're making here.

There is a difference between "psychiatrists" and "psychologists" (a psychiatrist is a MD who can prescribe medications, a psychologist usually isn't and can't though exceptions exist). But there's a huge overlap in the conditions they treat; anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, and autism/Aspergers are all well within that overlap. I'm not aware of an acknowledged distinction between "psychological problems" and "psychiatric problems".

My wife is a psychiatric nurse who often works in emergency services. The distinction between psychological problems and psychiatric problems is drawn by doctors on a clinical basis every day, many times a day. It's part of triage, and it determines whether a patient is released, referred to counseling, or hospitalized and medicated, probably with counseling followup.

There is a large overlap, and some problems (depression and anxiety, for instance) can be triaged as either psychological or psychiatric. That often depends on patient history.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My wife is a psychiatric nurse who often works in emergency services. The distinction between psychological problems and psychiatric problems is drawn by doctors on a clinical basis every day, many times a day. It's part of triage, and it determines whether a patient is released, referred to counseling, or hospitalized and medicated, probably with counseling followup.

There is a large overlap, and some problems (depression and anxiety, for instance) can be triaged as either psychological or psychiatric. That often depends on patient history.

Okay, then: on what basis do you think the issues I mentioned are "psychiatric" rather than "psychological"?

 

[RejectReality]

The thing that bothers me the most about the way these discussions usually go is the snide shaming of people with a lack of social skills, equating them with the extremists who've gone beyond depression and bitterness into straight up hate.

Whether intentional or simply blind to the associations they're drawing, it's that kind of commentary that affirms someone's lack of self-worth, and makes them even more of a prime candidate to slip over the edge.

"Sad losers who can't get a date. LOL"

You may think that in context of the discussion, everyone understands you're talking about the misogynistic/violent individuals the term incel has come to mean. For someone who's perpetually lonely and depressed, all they see is someone else laughing at them.

You know who's not laughing at them? The whack-jobs who think every male should be issued a female for their personal use, like they were pretzels on an airplane.