Incest Writers: Sister should be virginal?

[HappySpouse]

It is a strange creature that leaves negative reviews on the content of Erotica. I genuinely appreciate a criticism or suggestion, and I can see negatively commenting on the writing itself. But when I see a comment that hopes my main character dies from AIDS and takes her husband with her, I can only assume that saying shit like that brings that person joy.

So, take comfort in knowing that while you story did nothing for them, your presentation of an opportunity to berate a stranger still brought them some manner of release.

 

[jaF0]

I don't believe I've ever posted any form of definitive closing on any story. How would you even do that? Death of all involved? There is a SciFi section here, so they could all be resurrected, no?

 

[lovecraft68]

I don't believe I've ever posted any form of definitive closing on any story. How would you even do that? Death of all involved? There is a SciFi section here, so they could all be resurrected, no?

I suppose an epilogue with maybe a "five years later' and they're living as a couple in another state where no one knows them? It can be done I just don't choose to.

 

[SimonDoom]

My stories tend to be first times-not as in virginal-but the first encounter between the family members. I never write sequels because for me, its the thrill of the kill so to speak, that first time, that crossing the line....

After that, unless there is a solid storyline to be found most incest series I've found aren't much more than "Chapter Two...they do it when Mom's upstairs" Chapter Three "They go on vacation and screw in the hotel"

[

Agreed, which ties in with another general guideline I have with my stories, in other categories, too, which is "First time is the best time" for erotica. Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule. But the tension and drama are at their peak the FIRST time the taboo line is crossed, whatever that line is, and it's difficult to duplicate it in a subsequent chapter. The only way that can be done as I see it is to hold back a little in the first chapter and keep upping the intensity of the action in subsequent chapters. That's what I did with my 8-chapter Hot Mom series, which I think worked OK. Things didn't finally come to "fruition," so to speak, until the final chapter. Of course, some readers got impatient with that and angrily told me along the way they were dropping out.

You can't please everyone and you shouldn't try.

Another thing I did in that story is muddy the waters somewhat in terms of who is pursuing whom. It's told from the son's POV, so he he doing the pursuing throughout the series, but in the end it turns out to be more complicated than he thought.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Without apologies, I tend to write some themes that only appeal to a certain niche of our readers. Few, if any, seem to have any awareness that I'm typically challenging myself more with the nuts and bolts of writing than anything else.

I came to Lit as a playground to explore learning how to write in the 3rd person (which I'm still trying to master) and how to write longer format material (which I seem to have accomplished in spades, LOL).

While I like seeing red H's as much as the next guy, but I especially enjoy them when a commenter says something like, "I don't usually read this kind of thing, but . . ."

I'm in or near the top 50 of the most favorited authors, so I guess people seem to like my bs well enough. It's doubtful that I would stop writing even if I never made that list or if Lit were to do away with publishing that list. I wrote elsewhere before Lit and would probably do the same if I were to leave Lit.

Still, I'm consistently fascinated with the tropes that some readers seem to expect and I find it interesting what other authors are experiencing. for everyone offering their experiences.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

It is a strange creature that leaves negative reviews on the content of Erotica. . . . <snip> . . . So, take comfort in knowing that while you story did nothing for them, your presentation of an opportunity to berate a stranger still brought them some manner of release.

Very fun outlook on the negative comments!

. . .<snip> . . . which is "First time is the best time" for erotica. . . .

Agreed! I've often said that the appeal of writing incest is the inherent drama of "This is so wrong!" that it affords. I see parallels to first times, too!

What's interesting to me is that while first times are often memorable, in my experience, sex gets decidedly better with practice, especially when it's practiced repeatedly with the same partner(s). Not sure how to reflect that in a story, but thanks for the plot bunny element!

 

[jaF0]

I suppose an epilogue with maybe a "five years later' and they're living as a couple in another state where no one knows them? It can be done I just don't choose to.

I've had one stuck in my head for a while that may or may not ever spew out. Basically an outsider starts dating one of the parents. The (adult) kids are enticed to get involved with each other. At some point, the four take a vacation somewhere that no one knows them and laws aren't an issue, the outsider and the parent acting as one couple, the kids acting as another.

 

[Blind_Justice]

So what I'm learning is
1) Mom shouldn't want anal (previous discussion)
2) Sisters (and I'm assuming daughters) should be inexperienced.

How does that track for you and your writing? Is this advice you would give to other Incest/Taboo authors?

If I were into I/T, I'd say "what the fuck?" and move on. For me, more experienced partners are a huge turn on. We're talking I/T here. What's hotter than sister sneaking into brother's bed and showing him what's what? The best way of learning what girls like is if a girl shows them, right? If I were a girl and could chose between a lover who has been lovingly taught by his sister or one who learned all he knew from porn, then I'll happily take the first guy. The last thing I need is a drunk dickhead trying to ass-fuck me on our first date (probably without lube to boot) because that's what he saw on PornHub.

 

[lovecraft68]

If I were into I/T, I'd say "what the fuck?" and move on. For me, more experienced partners are a huge turn on. We're talking I/T here. What's hotter than sister sneaking into brother's bed and showing him what's what? The best way of learning what girls like is if a girl shows them, right? If I were a girl and could chose between a lover who has been lovingly taught by his sister or one who learned all he knew from porn, then I'll happily take the first guy. The last thing I need is a drunk dickhead trying to ass-fuck me on our first date (probably without lube to boot) because that's what he saw on PornHub.

This is my personal kink within I/T big sis showing her brother how to take care of a woman, whether the story is about her always wanting to be the woman he takes care of, or she's just being 'cool big sis' and showing him.

I like the concept of mom in that role as well, son is inexperienced, Mom becomes the sex teacher....

I'm a switch so I think that also plays to the part of me that can be submissive, that the older woman is in control( even in an easy going playful manner) and the boy is just overwhelmed by the situation and their experience.

I write more mom son than anything else, but bro/sis is my kink....maybe that's why I write less of it, the idea has to really appeal to me because I don't want to swing and miss on my personal fav

I'll just keep whiffing at other things

 

[lovecraft68]

Agreed, which ties in with another general guideline I have with my stories, in other categories, too, which is "First time is the best time" for erotica. Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule. But the tension and drama are at their peak the FIRST time the taboo line is crossed, whatever that line is, and it's difficult to duplicate it in a subsequent chapter. The only way that can be done as I see it is to hold back a little in the first chapter and keep upping the intensity of the action in subsequent chapters. That's what I did with my 8-chapter Hot Mom series, which I think worked OK. Things didn't finally come to "fruition," so to speak, until the final chapter. Of course, some readers got impatient with that and angrily told me along the way they were dropping out.

You can't please everyone and you shouldn't try.

Another thing I did in that story is muddy the waters somewhat in terms of who is pursuing whom. It's told from the son's POV, so he he doing the pursuing throughout the series, but in the end it turns out to be more complicated than he thought.

Well there's no conflict or tension if there's already something there.

My wife had an excellent analogy for slow burn stories vs stroke and how both have their place in comparing it to sex.

She said sometimes you want the full experience, kissing, touching, slow undressing, lips and fingers all over, a nice slow building orgasm, then sex

Other times skirt up panties down, bent over the bed is just fine.

I married a woman as romantic as I am.

 

[AvroAnson]

In my latest Incest/Taboo story, "Amy's College Pussy" - I made Amy very experienced - purposefully. She has a lust for lust and that lustfulness drives her to have taboo sex with her brother just for the thrill of doing it with her brother.

It isn't the taboo element of I/T that draws me to the category. It's the idea that while sex is my favorite free-time activity, and has been for 62 years, for me -- possibly because I am female -- it has to be about more than just pleasurable friction. To me sex is a deep communication, an expression of love with those I care for.

IRL "incest" is a problematic word. The word is used in a criminal law context to describe situations where people are abused in a way covered by other criminal laws. Since abuse of power is the real problem in this situation, this should be clarified by lawmakers -- but it's too political for those clueless eunuchs to touch.

Research, and my own knowledge from speaking to friends is that often IRL the first sexual explorations people have is with a like aged sibling or cousin. (Many places including where I live have laws against "incest." But each place defines "incest" differently. In my jurisdiction it is defined as either sex between a mother and her children, or siblings who share a mother.)

In the comments, one person asked, "Had she really sucked and screwed that many guys or was it just a way to get her brother to have SEX with her" while another wrote, "Didn't like that she apparently was an actual whore." (She was never an actual whore, but she is motivated by her lust.)

Biologically I do not have a brother, but I have two wonderful male cousins my age whom appear in fiction as my brothers, so I can project feelings and emotions into my writing from those relationships. IRL conganguine relations are often incredibly strong because there is a "third familiar bond" in addition to the sexual and possibly romantic bonds of non-consangiune relationships.

A whore is a businesswoman who sells a product. I have no prejudices against them, and I dislike the term being used as an insult. A prostitute who delivers the goods is to me morally superior to many in the business world who overpromise and underdeliver. They are far more ethical than bureaucrats who seek to regulate what they don't understand and officials who use their offices for personal gain.

By my definition I am a "slut," an old broad who enjoys sex as much as a man and isn't afraid to say so or fuck somebody I choose to under the table. Often simply as a gift because I know that they will enjoy it too. Zane and I understood one another perfectly when he proposed and I accepted 58 or so years ago.

A couple of the email/PM messages I received suggested similar thoughts - one even told me, "I don't believe Amy was really that experienced. I think she just said all that."

Every story here is a Rorschach test for the readers.

So, apparently, a sister (or daughter, I would assume) is supposed to be something close to virginal? To me, that borders on discrimination. Women like sex, too! (Shocker, I know!)

In this anti-sexual climate, virginity is seen as a virtue. How odd. Does anyone want their surgeon to be a "virgin" who never performed an operation before? How about the architect who builds a house, pilot who flies your family through a thunderstorm, engineer who builds the bridge they are on or the car being driven across it? Unless my kid produced it, I'm not so interested in hearing a "first" violin recital or viewing someones "first" movie.

So what I'm learning is
1) Mom shouldn't want anal (previous discussion)

Anal is fun, our butts are big 'ole erogenous zones. In theory, IF I was getting fucked by my son, wouldn't I want to have the most fun possible? Why would anything be off of the table? But I am not the majority opinion, in my stories when sons fuck their mothers it is out of love. The conflict is external like Helga and Herman in Kurt Vonnegut's 'Mother Night'. They are two -- or seventeen, I live* group sex -- against a world that would destroy them.

(*EDIT: I meant to type "love," but "live" is equally accurate.)

2) Sisters (and I'm assuming daughters) should be inexperienced.

IMHO the value a society places on virginity is in inverse proportion to the value it places on women as human beings. Good sexual experiences makes one a better future lover. There were many good stories here about first time explorations between two -- or more -- inexperienced parties. Mine and countless others fell victim to the logical interpretation of an illogical rule.

(This is not a comment on the rule. I understand the "18" rule that holds sway here and abide by it. It was a necessary evil that protects the website. Losing a few stories to it -- stories that are posted elsewhere anyway -- is no price at all to pay to help keep this site from being demonized and destroyed and losing everything.)

Since most people have their first sexual experiences ("sex' as it is defined at LitE) at about 13 or 14 years of age (according to Australian DoH, Health Canada, the UK's DHSC, the US Dept of HHS, and the WHO) ALL or at least the VAST MAJORITY of stories about two virgins experimenting involve persons whom IRL would be under 18 years of age.

It's a big circular argument. If characters are realistically uncertain, ill informed and "juvenile," then they are seen as being underage. If they knowledgeably utilize correct information they presumably received that information from a class or parent when they were underage. Either way the story is now "verbotten." It isn't LitE. It's a bi-polar society that has LGBT student organizations in schools where the nurses hand out condoms but aren't permitted to explain what they are, or what they're used for.

How does that track for you and your writing?

I have written stories where the inexperienced younger sister seduces the older brother. Typically, she recognizes that her one big advantage over all his other choices is that she offers him unconditional love. Often she bides time to permit him to see what his other options are like. How they come up short. For me it's always a conscious choice, it's never "oh my it's so wrong," rather it's "oh my it's so right, but we can't let a jealous world find out what we've discovered here."

I have written a few where the younger brother, who loves his sister platonically, figures it all out without having to go through the heartache of being in relationships with people who don't accept him for being who he is. He is struck by the blinding light of an epiphany, that they can be completely honest with one another.

Having had a 35 year long engagement to "Zane" starting when I was 20 or so, it's rather easy to morph that relationship into daddy-daughter stories. He was my father's age, his lifelong friend, and business partner part of the time I was growing up. He asked me, and I said "yes" but we never formalized it because both families, while they liked / loved us, they did not want us to marry one another.

Is this advice you would give to other Incest/Taboo authors?

My advice is: "write what you would like to read and ratings be damned."

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

As a writer, I find virginal characters utterly uninteresting. All my female characters tend to be on the 'easy' side. I find sluttiness a big turn on, and virgins are so boring.

 

[SimonDoom]

To backtrack a bit and fall back on general principles, I think the general form to any question about story content (provided it abides by Laurel's rules) that begins "Should . . . ?" should be answered with a statement of the general form:

"No, do what you want. But if you want to understand the peculiarities of Literotica readers, be mindful of the following . . .."

 

[lovecraft68]

To backtrack a bit and fall back on general principles, I think the general form to any question about story content (provided it abides by Laurel's rules) that begins "Should . . . ?" should be answered with a statement of the general form:

"No, do what you want. But if you want to understand the peculiarities of Literotica readers, be mindful of the following . . .."

The old adage....you can please some of the people....applies to many topics here.

 

[SamScribble]

As I have discussed with one or two (more actually) authors over the past few years, one of the things about some – many? – Lit readers is that they don’t seem to be able to distinguish between real life and erotic fiction.

Many of the characters in my fiction are loosely modelled on real people, but the loosely modelled characters are still fictional. It’s not reportage. Fictional mothers do sometimes like a bit of anal action. Fictional sisters are sometimes experienced in the ways of the world. I’m afraid my response is: You want a virginal sister? You write one.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I purposefully put a line in my Valentines story that the female character liked sex and had had many partners including too many one-night-stands to count. The paragraph then goes on to explain that very few of these men were in tune with the character sexually and were more interested in pleasing themselves than pleasing her. Of course, I got a comment saying that that was a huge turn off for a man and any man she ended up with would be wondering who she was thinking of when they made love. Le sigh.

 

[GingerCat1]

Admittedly that's a part of my reason for having the sister be older, more in control and the more experienced lover. I excel at angering the 'real men"

I personally prefer the sister being older for a similar reason. I generally feel like the older sister stories the older sister has more agency and more control of the situation than in the younger sister stories. I mean that obviously isn't true of all younger sister stories but the idea that the girl should "save herself" for the guy is much more prevalent in younger sister stories.

I like the idea of the sister being portrayed as human, someone who likes dating, and shock horror, likes sex too.

I think another thing that is a problem sometimes is brothers can be portrayed as super creepy, like finding his sisters unwashed underwear and sniffing it. As soon as a main character does that in a story I am done with it as that is really weird. Also happens more often in younger sister stories (a bit more often anyway).

 

[GingerCat1]

As a writer, I find virginal characters utterly uninteresting. All my female characters tend to be on the 'easy' side. I find sluttiness a big turn on, and virgins are so boring.

I think it is a fine line. Being on the easy side is perfectly fine, but it can be super boring if an author makes the sister too easy if that makes sense, like if she sees her brother naked and instantly wants to have sex with him then it not only makes her an unrealistic character but takes away any taboo of them being brother and sister.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

It isn't the taboo element of I/T that draws me to the category. It's the idea that while sex is my favorite free-time activity, and has been for 62 years, for me -- possibly because I am female -- it has to be about more than just pleasurable friction. To me sex is a deep communication, an expression of love with those I care for.
My advice is: "write what you would like to read and ratings be damned."

Thank you for sharing each one of your thoughts. As for the last one, I most certainly do write what I would like to read. At the same time, I've done enough writing for magazines, I'm okay with slanting a story for the market. It often costs nothing to add (or subtract) a minor element.

I purposefully put a line in my Valentines story that the female character liked sex and had had many partners including too many one-night-stands to count. The paragraph then goes on to explain that very few of these men were in tune with the character sexually and were more interested in pleasing themselves than pleasing her. Of course, I got a comment saying that that was a huge turn off for a man and any man she ended up with would be wondering who she was thinking of when they made love. Le sigh.

Not to get too personal, but Mrs. Bucky Duckman was very experienced by the time I met her, as was I. In her case, she had even been married once, too. Her prior experience and lust for lust were a bonding point. I suspect that these men who long to "break a woman in" have little experience with actually doing that. I also suspect these same men are secretly fearful of their lovemaking, afraid of being with a woman who might be able to tell the difference between good sex and okay sex.

It reminds me of an old joke about an elderly couple sitting on the couch reading magazines. The woman is reading a "Cosmo" that she bought and after an hour, she rolls it up and slaps her husband with it.

"What was that for?" he complains.

"That's forty-five years of bad sex!"

A few minutes later, the man repays the woman's slap with one of his own.

"What was that for?" she complains.

"For knowing the difference."

- - - - - -

There seems to be some crossover between I/T and LW readers when it comes to a brother sharing his sister, too, which is a bit disappointing to me. The idea of discovery, not just of each other, but sharing their taboo relationship - that's a fun plot bunny for me. If you've crossed into the taboo, who do you allow to know about it? Who else can accept the taboo nature of your shared lust?

 

[NotWise]

There seems to be some crossover between I/T and LW readers when it comes to a brother sharing his sister, too, which is a bit disappointing to me. The idea of discovery, not just of each other, but sharing their taboo relationship - that's a fun plot bunny for me. If you've crossed into the taboo, who do you allow to know about it? Who else can accept the taboo nature of your shared lust?

Asymmetry abounds. I have two stories in which the sister shares her brother. Both stories are popular. I also have one written (not so popular) and one in progress in which a mother shares her son.

 

[drscar]

Every story here is a Rorschach test for the readers.

Amen.

My advice is: "write what you would like to read and ratings be damned."

Again, amen.

 

[8letters]

I think you've hit a key point here. I purposely made Amy promiscuous as a shortcut to the action. Lazy writing, but then again, I wanted to see if I could write something shorter (it's only 6000 words, two Lit pages).

For me, the fun of writing incest lies in overcoming the "but this is wrong!" barrier and justifying the character's actions. (Then again, that's true of most of my stories, including the bi-guy stories, too.) I might be a little heavy-handed in the hesitancy/reluctance part of my I/T stories, but it is what it is.

To me, a first time can be lust. A second time, it becomes a choice.

To me, I/T is Romance except with a blood relative. Readers want the sex to be emotionally significant for the two characters. I can see a story where she's like "I've fucked every other guy, I might as well fuck my brother" not having near enough romance for the average I/T reader.

As for readers wanting a "Happy Ever After", that goes with I/T being Romance. Readers want the couple to live happily together, get married and have kids.

There isn't a lot of "romance" in modern relationships. There's no sudden "I love you and want to be with you forever" moments. Dating is like sausage making - no one wants to watch it. Relationships taking a series of tiny steps forward until one day they are married. With I/T, you can let those romantic tensions build up and up until the two characters just have to declare their love for each other.

 

[HappySpouse]

It reminds me of an old joke about an elderly couple sitting on the couch reading magazines. The woman is reading a "Cosmo" that she bought and after an hour, she rolls it up and slaps her husband with it.

"What was that for?" he complains.

"That's forty-five years of bad sex!"

A few minutes later, the man repays the woman's slap with one of his own.

"What was that for?" she complains.

"For knowing the difference."

It reminds me of an old joke about an elderly couple sitting on the couch reading magazines. The woman is reading a "Cosmo" that she bought and after an hour, she rolls it up and slaps her husband with it.

"What was that for?" he complains.

"That's forty-five years of bad sex!"

A few minutes later, the man repays the woman's slap with one of his own.

"What was that for?" she complains.

“Forty-five years of bad sex.”



There I fixed it. Takes two to tango.

 

[yowser]

To me, I/T is Romance except with a blood relative. Readers want the sex to be emotionally significant for the two characters. I can see a story where she's like "I've fucked every other guy, I might as well fuck my brother" not having near enough romance for the average I/T reader.

As for readers wanting a "Happy Ever After", that goes with I/T being Romance.

This strikes me as accurate, but I have a slightly different question, as to how same-sex contact is received in IT. Seems to me IT is pretty much a hetero-category.

And the HEA part is thus perhaps more complicated to deliver plausibly. Can a same-sex IT story work well for this audience? My own efforts and anecdotal evidence from others suggests not.

 

[imusis]

To be honest, as a reader I really don't care if the sister or brother is virginal or not. If the story has a bro and sis doing the do, that's enough for me. The past experience of the characters doesn't really matter.