'BBC' cucks - can we improve a problematic fetish?

[subliminalmassage]

I've been into cuckoldry since Eve cheated on Adam. I don't like that I'm into it, but after several unsuccessful tries at not being, I've long since given up. Worse still, from my point of view, is that I like the version of this fetish where the man is black, and a big deal is made of that point. It generally incorporates ideas around women exclusively committing to black men. These ideas, like many fetishes, are silly. They're also racist.

Needless to say, just at the moment, I'm feeling fairly guilty about how my dick sees the world.

I'd already been trying to write a version of my fantasy that centred the black characters a lot more, gave them rational motives, inner conflict etc. as well as highlighting issues of structural racism that exist in society via various B plots. I keep going to write it now and wondering if I shouldn't just shelve the whole thing... or if I should double down and try and create something that criticises and explores these tropes.

My dream outcome would be to create a story that deconstructs, rather than forgives, an unusual and perhaps socially harmful fetish, whilst still being (I hope) sexy, funny, weird and interesting.

Oh and if you read the whole thing, it teaches you intersectionalism.

 

[sirhugs]

I think you should go for it. Be careful about the criticism or you risk offending a core audience.

You will need to decide at some point if this is structured as an essay, which is a fringe category on Lit, or a fictionalized story, which will get a broader readership. If you go with fiction, make sure that reservations notwithstanding, you supply lots of sexual action.

 

[loquere]

It is problematic but you're taking a positive step forward, I think you should go ahead while continuing to examine your steps forward. I'm not speaking for all black men here, just me and my opinion as a black man.

I've been into cuckoldry since Eve cheated on Adam. I don't like that I'm into it, but after several unsuccessful tries at not being, I've long since given up. Worse still, from my point of view, is that I like the version of this fetish where the man is black, and a big deal is made of that point. It generally incorporates ideas around women exclusively committing to black men. These ideas, like many fetishes, are silly. They're also racist.

Needless to say, just at the moment, I'm feeling fairly guilty about how my dick sees the world.

I'd already been trying to write a version of my fantasy that centred the black characters a lot more, gave them rational motives, inner conflict etc. as well as highlighting issues of structural racism that exist in society via various B plots. I keep going to write it now and wondering if I shouldn't just shelve the whole thing... or if I should double down and try and create something that criticises and explores these tropes.

My dream outcome would be to create a story that deconstructs, rather than forgives, an unusual and perhaps socially harmful fetish, whilst still being (I hope) sexy, funny, weird and interesting.

Oh and if you read the whole thing, it teaches you intersectionalism.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Thank you for starting this thread. I think it's tremendously positive that you have.

I offer the following not as an opinion on the solution, but as a comment on the problem and on identifying similar problems. It's just my perspective. I'm neither black, nor a man, so my perspective is necessarily limited. I think it's important for everyone to talk about, though.

A little bit of background: I grew up in one of those families where the parents throw around the N-word, and then when the kid objects, they say something along the lines of "Not all black people. Just the bad ones." Naturally, they also had a black friend to bring up when it was at issue. Like a lot of kids who aren't particularly racist themselves, living in that constant state of opposition, particularly in an abusive home where the opposition could have serious consequences, I temporized and negotiated with my conscience. I always hated it, but I let some of the rationalizations shut me up, when I really ought to have continued to speak up. I didn't really realize the concessions I was making until later. I imagine most kids don't.

I became a young adult who felt reasonably free of racism. I still think that's a fair assessment, but I wasn't grasping the difference between racism and unconscious prejudice. More to the point, I was blindly ignorant of the way life looked from a black person's perspective. I may remain ignorant of it in the sense I can't actually experience it, but back then, I was ignorant of it in the sense that I thought walking around being black was the same experience as walking around being white. Even after growing up listening to the N word all the time, I did not see a difference. To me, being black was just like being white, despite the fact that I really ought to have figured out otherwise by the time I was an adult. Even though I was acutely aware of racial slurs, I didn't understand how fundamentally horrible they were as opposed to other cruel comments. Where I was really ignorant was the way being black affected a person's daily life, and all the little decisions necessary to safely navigate, and most of all, how they were seen by white people.

One of my first significant relationships was with a black man. I had never thought of the whole BBC thing in the context of our relationship. I was aware of what people said about it, of course, but I thought of it more as a stupid thing people say, like correlating hand or foot size to penis size. It had not occurred to me that it was racist. I'm sure part of that was because it attributed a characteristic that most men seem to view as very positive. I didn't see it as fetishizing a black man's genitals or ignoring the fact that a person is attached to the cock being spoken of. I didn't see it as something that would be embarrassing to a black man. I also didn't see it as related to the whole racist bit about black men coming for all the white women.

A really innocuous experience changed the way I saw it. My boyfriend and I were watching Blazing Saddles with some other people. I still love that movie, but I wonder how I would feel about it if I went back and watched it now? Anyway, a good time was being had until we got to the part where Lili Von Shtupp asks Bart if it's true that "you people" are really "gifted." The lights go out, presumably she has a chance to check, and she says, "It IS true, it IS true."

I'd watched that movie several times before and never thought anything of that line. All of a sudden I was sitting there with my face on fire, embarrassed for my boyfriend, embarrassed for myself, and feeling like everyone was thinking about our sex life. (Based on the glances we got, they were.) Suddenly, those couple of lines seemed a whole lot different than every other time I heard them. My boyfriend wasn't that bothered by it. He was older than I was and had been dealing with crap much worse than that his whole life. I was just appalled, though. I had never thought about people (men and women) speculating on the size of his cock solely as a function of his race, or speculating on it at all for that matter. I had never thought of the fact that walking around with me made him even more susceptible to that kind of thinking. I wasn't so naive that I didn't realize it made him a target for other things, but I didn't realize it made people's minds get in his pants like that.

What seemed so harmless or even complimentary, was suddenly obnoxious, intrusive and offensive, and that was even before I'd grasped the concept of fetishizing a black man's junk. It was a wake-up call. I started seeing a lot of comedy bits in a new light, too. You know - the ones where the comedian say, "White people are like [does impression], but black people are like [does impression]." Regardless of the race of the comedian or the racial compositions of the audience, the comedy is based on stereotypes. My right to laugh at something isn't more important than someone else's right to not feel laughed at. I know a lot of people might find this overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. "Snowflake?" I can live with that.

For non-adult topics, my rule is that if I wouldn't be comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something that has some sort of racial implication in front of a black kid, I shouldn't be doing it at all. (I use kid as an example because I think we have better instincts when a kid's involved.) If it's an adult topic, would I have been comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something beside my black boyfriend? I realize it sounds simplistic and it risks boiling black experience down to whomever you are using as an example. There are probably a dozen ways to shred and drag this little test. What it does, though, is allow you to see yourself through the eyes of someone else. We can't imagine what someone's whole experience is like, but it's actually pretty easy to imagine how they'd feel about a specific thing. And if it's not easy, then you know you should ask.

For what it's worth, that's what made me see the whole BBC thing differently, and how it made me look at similar issues.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't write as you've discussed. I don't feel like I really have the right to try to answer that when there are other people with a more personal stake in it who can answer for themselves. I just wanted to offer a lens through which to examine the issue.

 

[lovecraft68]

Seeing racism is a hotbed topic I'll say that for years I've felt his stuff is nothing but pure racism in every way you slice it

The black man many times portrayed as some kind of thug animal, the white husband always totally demeaned, and the wife is 'extra trashy' for being with a black man.

Furthermore black/white as a fetish is one thing, but the fact that it is somehow still 'dirty' for a white woman to be with a black woman speaks to the racism of the readers and the authors not just in LW but the interracial section.

I don't think it can be fixed because you'd have to fix people's perceptions and not sure that's happening.

Sorry, I generally don't consider myself preachy, and I'm a live and let live type, but seeing the door was open I figured I'd step in and say how I've felt, and not just now when its trendy and 'woke' to talk about this, but for as long as I can remember.

 

[loquere]

That was really very beautifully said, like something I'd read in the Atlantic. Thank you for sharing your personal experience, looking through the lens of others is essential. I go back and forth on these topics myself. I had an incident and I described it on this forum, I think you may have commented on it. The guy I was having sex with randomly said, "fuck me N......." While I was, you know fucking him.

I ended up forgiving him because he's Latin American and somewhat new here, & he claimed he didn't realize it was offensive but supposedly it had happened once before & that guy did the right thing & cut things off right away. None the less I decided to give him one more chance because he was very apologetic, but it was super awkward from there on, then one night he sent me a meme based on the George Floyd incident with a black guy with a huge penis sitting on the officer who killed George Floyd. So I finally at that point blocked him.

There were warning signs now that I look back, he was very specific about the guy's he'd date. Black or Latino as a preference, a skin tone preference I think but no BBC request, no white guys. I as a black guy had no issue with that at the time but the BBC lovers & fetishers were a no go, but now that I think there is more to it & I would never date a man or woman who specically writes off any race. Although I am cautious about dating people who aren't of colour now, I'm not writing them off as an entire group.

Thank you for starting this thread. I think it's tremendously positive that you have.

I offer the following not as an opinion on the solution, but as a comment on the problem and on identifying similar problems. It's just my perspective. I'm neither black, nor a man, so my perspective is necessarily limited. I think it's important for everyone to talk about, though.

A little bit of background: I grew up in one of those families where the parents throw around the N-word, and then when the kid objects, they say something along the lines of "Not all black people. Just the bad ones." Naturally, they also had a black friend to bring up when it was at issue. Like a lot of kids who aren't particularly racist themselves, living in that constant state of opposition, particularly in an abusive home where the opposition could have serious consequences, I temporized and negotiated with my conscience. I always hated it, but I let some of the rationalizations shut me up, when I really ought to have continued to speak up. I didn't really realize the concessions I was making until later. I imagine most kids don't.

I became a young adult who felt reasonably free of racism. I still think that's a fair assessment, but I wasn't grasping the difference between racism and unconscious prejudice. More to the point, I was blindly ignorant of the way life looked from a black person's perspective. I may remain ignorant of it in the sense I can't actually experience it, but back then, I was ignorant of it in the sense that I thought walking around being black was the same experience as walking around being white. Even after growing up listening to the N word all the time, I did not see a difference. To me, being black was just like being white, despite the fact that I really ought to have figured out otherwise by the time I was an adult. Even though I was acutely aware of racial slurs, I didn't understand how fundamentally horrible they were as opposed to other cruel comments. Where I was really ignorant was the way being black affected a person's daily life, and all the little decisions necessary to safely navigate, and most of all, how they were seen by white people.

One of my first significant relationships was with a black man. I had never thought of the whole BBC thing in the context of our relationship. I was aware of what people said about it, of course, but I thought of it more as a stupid thing people say, like correlating hand or foot size to penis size. It had not occurred to me that it was racist. I'm sure part of that was because it attributed a characteristic that most men seem to view as very positive. I didn't see it as fetishizing a black man's genitals or ignoring the fact that a person is attached to the cock being spoken of. I didn't see it as something that would be embarrassing to a black man. I also didn't see it as related to the whole racist bit about black men coming for all the white women.

A really innocuous experience changed the way I saw it. My boyfriend and I were watching Blazing Saddles with some other people. I still love that movie, but I wonder how I would feel about it if I went back and watched it now? Anyway, a good time was being had until we got to the part where Lili Von Shtupp asks Bart if it's true that "you people" are really "gifted." The lights go out, presumably she has a chance to check, and she says, "It IS true, it IS true."

I'd watched that movie several times before and never thought anything of that line. All of a sudden I was sitting there with my face on fire, embarrassed for my boyfriend, embarrassed for myself, and feeling like everyone was thinking about our sex life. (Based on the glances we got, they were.) Suddenly, those couple of lines seemed a whole lot different than every other time I heard them. My boyfriend wasn't that bothered by it. He was older than I was and had been dealing with crap much worse than that his whole life. I was just appalled, though. I had never thought about people (men and women) speculating on the size of his cock solely as a function of his race, or speculating on it at all for that matter. I had never thought of the fact that walking around with me made him even more susceptible to that kind of thinking. I wasn't so naive that I didn't realize it made him a target for other things, but I didn't realize it made people's minds get in his pants like that.

What seemed so harmless or even complimentary, was suddenly obnoxious, intrusive and offensive, and that was even before I'd grasped the concept of fetishizing a black man's junk. It was a wake-up call. I started seeing a lot of comedy bits in a new light, too. You know - the ones where the comedian say, "White people are like [does impression], but black people are like [does impression]." Regardless of the race of the comedian or the racial compositions of the audience, the comedy is based on stereotypes. My right to laugh at something isn't more important than someone else's right to not feel laughed at. I know a lot of people might find this overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. "Snowflake?" I can live with that.

For non-adult topics, my rule is that if I wouldn't be comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something that has some sort of racial implication in front of a black kid, I shouldn't be doing it at all. (I use kid as an example because I think we have better instincts when a kid's involved.) If it's an adult topic, would I have been comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something beside my black boyfriend? I realize it sounds simplistic and it risks boiling black experience down to whomever you are using as an example. There are probably a dozen ways to shred and drag this little test. What it does, though, is allow you to see yourself through the eyes of someone else. We can't imagine what someone's whole experience is like, but it's actually pretty easy to imagine how they'd feel about a specific thing. And if it's not easy, then you know you should ask.

For what it's worth, that's what made me see the whole BBC thing differently, and how it made me look at similar issues.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't write as you've discussed. I don't feel like I really have the right to try to answer that when there are other people with a more personal stake in it who can answer for themselves. I just wanted to offer a lens through which to examine the issue.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Thank you for sharing your personal experience, looking through the lens of others is essential.

... then one night he sent me a meme based on the George Floyd incident with a black guy with a huge penis sitting on the officer who killed George Floyd...

Jesus effing Christ. Unbelievable that people are making memes like that. That's just sick.

 

[yukonnights]

I've been into cuckoldry since Eve cheated on Adam. I don't like that I'm into it, but after several unsuccessful tries at not being, I've long since given up. Worse still, from my point of view, is that I like the version of this fetish where the man is black, and a big deal is made of that point. It generally incorporates ideas around women exclusively committing to black men. These ideas, like many fetishes, are silly. They're also racist.

Needless to say, just at the moment, I'm feeling fairly guilty about how my dick sees the world.

I'd already been trying to write a version of my fantasy that centred the black characters a lot more, gave them rational motives, inner conflict etc. as well as highlighting issues of structural racism that exist in society via various B plots. I keep going to write it now and wondering if I shouldn't just shelve the whole thing... or if I should double down and try and create something that criticises and explores these tropes.

My dream outcome would be to create a story that deconstructs, rather than forgives, an unusual and perhaps socially harmful fetish, whilst still being (I hope) sexy, funny, weird and interesting.

Oh and if you read the whole thing, it teaches you intersectionalism.

I think most people who have a semi-functioning brain grasp the fallacy of the BBC trope — all humans come in different and unique packages. There are men of all races that are more — or less — endowed. An interesting question is; Why is the trope so popular? What is it about the fetish that that arouses the one being aroused? Thus, the really interesting question is; What's going on inside the heads of the white folks who get off on this?

It sounds like you have high aspirations for something more than fap-fodder. I hope you keep trying to make your dream come to fruition. I'm a fan of using erotica to send a message and/or plant a seed of thought on a social subject of importance. The only thing I can think of in way of a suggestion is that you consider reaching out to someone who can look over your story who has a broader perspective. I don't know anyone personally, but someone like 'loquere' would be invaluable in my opinion.

 

[subliminalmassage]

It is problematic but you're taking a positive step forward, I think you should go ahead while continuing to examine your steps forward. I'm not speaking for all black men here, just me and my opinion as a black man.

Thank you. If I may, I'd like to send you a private message?

Seeing racism is a hotbed topic I'll say that for years I've felt his stuff is nothing but pure racism in every way you slice it

The black man many times portrayed as some kind of thug animal, the white husband always totally demeaned, and the wife is 'extra trashy' for being with a black man.

Furthermore black/white as a fetish is one thing, but the fact that it is somehow still 'dirty' for a white woman to be with a black woman speaks to the racism of the readers and the authors not just in LW but the interracial section.

I don't think it can be fixed because you'd have to fix people's perceptions and not sure that's happening.

Sorry, I generally don't consider myself preachy, and I'm a live and let live type, but seeing the door was open I figured I'd step in and say how I've felt, and not just now when its trendy and 'woke' to talk about this, but for as long as I can remember.

I asked for preachy, and I appreciate your candour. I agree it's unlikely I'll be able to fix racism with my porno. In fact I agree with almost everything you've said. The only part I'd disagree with would be that the perception within the cuckold interracial sub genre is that white women who have sex with black men are trashier. This, in my experience, is not the predominant narrative, though I have no doubt there are audience members who experience the content that way.

In general, cuckold porn is about the inferiority, weakness and failure of the husband, in contrast to the superiority and success of his sexual replacement - regardless of race and (very occasionally) gender. As such I think blackness is most commonly instrumentalised to communicate to the audience that the lead is 'other' to them. This is also racist, but in a different way, and for different reasons, to the one you describe. In fact, it may be a more insidious form of racism: when this fetish was developing many moons ago, I justified it to myself on the basis that any racism occurring was of the 'positive' kind. I don't hold that view any more, but I have seen it expressed by others.

Thank you for starting this thread. I think it's tremendously positive that you have.

I offer the following not as an opinion on the solution, but as a comment on the problem and on identifying similar problems. It's just my perspective. I'm neither black, nor a man, so my perspective is necessarily limited. I think it's important for everyone to talk about, though.

A little bit of background: I grew up in one of those families where the parents throw around the N-word, and then when the kid objects, they say something along the lines of "Not all black people. Just the bad ones." Naturally, they also had a black friend to bring up when it was at issue. Like a lot of kids who aren't particularly racist themselves, living in that constant state of opposition, particularly in an abusive home where the opposition could have serious consequences, I temporized and negotiated with my conscience. I always hated it, but I let some of the rationalizations shut me up, when I really ought to have continued to speak up. I didn't really realize the concessions I was making until later. I imagine most kids don't.

I became a young adult who felt reasonably free of racism. I still think that's a fair assessment, but I wasn't grasping the difference between racism and unconscious prejudice. More to the point, I was blindly ignorant of the way life looked from a black person's perspective. I may remain ignorant of it in the sense I can't actually experience it, but back then, I was ignorant of it in the sense that I thought walking around being black was the same experience as walking around being white. Even after growing up listening to the N word all the time, I did not see a difference. To me, being black was just like being white, despite the fact that I really ought to have figured out otherwise by the time I was an adult. Even though I was acutely aware of racial slurs, I didn't understand how fundamentally horrible they were as opposed to other cruel comments. Where I was really ignorant was the way being black affected a person's daily life, and all the little decisions necessary to safely navigate, and most of all, how they were seen by white people.

One of my first significant relationships was with a black man. I had never thought of the whole BBC thing in the context of our relationship. I was aware of what people said about it, of course, but I thought of it more as a stupid thing people say, like correlating hand or foot size to penis size. It had not occurred to me that it was racist. I'm sure part of that was because it attributed a characteristic that most men seem to view as very positive. I didn't see it as fetishizing a black man's genitals or ignoring the fact that a person is attached to the cock being spoken of. I didn't see it as something that would be embarrassing to a black man. I also didn't see it as related to the whole racist bit about black men coming for all the white women.

A really innocuous experience changed the way I saw it. My boyfriend and I were watching Blazing Saddles with some other people. I still love that movie, but I wonder how I would feel about it if I went back and watched it now? Anyway, a good time was being had until we got to the part where Lili Von Shtupp asks Bart if it's true that "you people" are really "gifted." The lights go out, presumably she has a chance to check, and she says, "It IS true, it IS true."

I'd watched that movie several times before and never thought anything of that line. All of a sudden I was sitting there with my face on fire, embarrassed for my boyfriend, embarrassed for myself, and feeling like everyone was thinking about our sex life. (Based on the glances we got, they were.) Suddenly, those couple of lines seemed a whole lot different than every other time I heard them. My boyfriend wasn't that bothered by it. He was older than I was and had been dealing with crap much worse than that his whole life. I was just appalled, though. I had never thought about people (men and women) speculating on the size of his cock solely as a function of his race, or speculating on it at all for that matter. I had never thought of the fact that walking around with me made him even more susceptible to that kind of thinking. I wasn't so naive that I didn't realize it made him a target for other things, but I didn't realize it made people's minds get in his pants like that.

What seemed so harmless or even complimentary, was suddenly obnoxious, intrusive and offensive, and that was even before I'd grasped the concept of fetishizing a black man's junk. It was a wake-up call. I started seeing a lot of comedy bits in a new light, too. You know - the ones where the comedian say, "White people are like [does impression], but black people are like [does impression]." Regardless of the race of the comedian or the racial compositions of the audience, the comedy is based on stereotypes. My right to laugh at something isn't more important than someone else's right to not feel laughed at. I know a lot of people might find this overkill, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. "Snowflake?" I can live with that.

For non-adult topics, my rule is that if I wouldn't be comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something that has some sort of racial implication in front of a black kid, I shouldn't be doing it at all. (I use kid as an example because I think we have better instincts when a kid's involved.) If it's an adult topic, would I have been comfortable saying, doing, watching, or listening to something beside my black boyfriend? I realize it sounds simplistic and it risks boiling black experience down to whomever you are using as an example. There are probably a dozen ways to shred and drag this little test. What it does, though, is allow you to see yourself through the eyes of someone else. We can't imagine what someone's whole experience is like, but it's actually pretty easy to imagine how they'd feel about a specific thing. And if it's not easy, then you know you should ask.

For what it's worth, that's what made me see the whole BBC thing differently, and how it made me look at similar issues.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't write as you've discussed. I don't feel like I really have the right to try to answer that when there are other people with a more personal stake in it who can answer for themselves. I just wanted to offer a lens through which to examine the issue.

Gosh.

This is such an incisive analysis of your own journey. I really appreciate you sharing it. I think that litmus test you describe will prove very useful in assessing the themes and devices I employ.

 

[SimonDoom]

I appreciate the OP starting this thread. This, in my view, is a very tricky subject. I have conflicted feelings about it.

There's no question that the BBC/cuckold fantasy stories, and black male/white female interracial stories in general, usually (though not always) play to disturbing racial stereotypes and themes.

Personally, I don't think one has to feel guilty about one's fantasies, or about what one wants to read. Many erotica themes are disturbing -- incest, underage, nonconsent. But people fantasize about these things anyway. What do we do about that? We can pretend it doesn't exist. We can try to purge ourselves of these thoughts, or try to stand strong and never read these stories.

I don't believe in doing that. My own view is that for many of us our erotic fantasies and kinks are tied into a lot of dark stuff buried deep within us, and, rather than suppress it, it's better to carve out a fantasy/entertainment space where we can read stories and indulge these fantasies. Unlike many, I don't judge people by what they read, even if it's pretty yukky stuff. Seriously, how is reading a child porn or bestiality story worse than watching a Saw or Hostel movie?

I take a somewhat different view as an author. I'm working on an interracial story, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle the material. I'm trying to find a way to play with the genre without pandering to it, and that's difficult. I'm not sure what the answer is. But I don't judge authors who come to answers that may be different from mine. I'm not sure that in the context of erotica there is a "right" or "enlightened" answer, because in the case of erotica enlightenment may not be what's called for, and that's OK.

So, in response to the OP, I'd say I applaud his being mindful and keeping an open mind about changing his attitude about these stories but I don't think he has to feel guilty about his fetishes or reading interests.