Some poly, some kink, some other stuff ...

[Wild_Honey_66]

We spend a lot of time talking about stuff. He cares for me a great deal, and we're also really good at reading each other. And we've taken things very, very slowly. I'm lucky that I've found a person and a context that allows for all this.

Yes, you are. And I am very glad for you.

 

[Olderthanthat]

We spend a lot of time talking about stuff. He cares for me a great deal, and we're also really good at reading each other. And we've taken things very, very slowly. I'm lucky that I've found a person and a context that allows for all this.

It is very special that you would share your explorations. Thank you.

Permit me to inject this. One poly site lists the following options under the type of relationship in which one is interested:

Poly Friends; Play Partner; Closed V; Open V; Polyfidelitous Triad; Open Triad; Other; and Explicitly Non-Sexual Relationship.

Ha, an open relationship in which a couple is comfortable sounds much more welcoming to me!

Good luck!

 

[KimGordon67]

It is very special that you would share your explorations. Thank you.

Permit me to inject this. One poly site lists the following options under the type of relationship in which one is interested:

Poly Friends; Play Partner; Closed V; Open V; Polyfidelitous Triad; Open Triad; Other; and Explicitly Non-Sexual Relationship.

Ha, an open relationship in which a couple is comfortable sounds much more welcoming to me!

Good luck!

I find that 'ethical non-monogamy' is a pretty applicable catch-all term

 

[pplwatching]

You give him things he can't buy in a store. You give him trust, control, creative freedom for starters.

You give him yourself.

That is precisely why, in my opinion this relationship is a threat to your marriage. I know that there is more of your story yet to unfold, but a recurring theme (unless I am misreading) is that your husband doesn't know the whole story and you withhold that information from him. You give yourself to your lover and withhold yourself from your husband. Perhaps not in the sexual sense or even in the emotional sense, but this relationship has already fundamentally altered your relationship with your husband even though you seem to be saying that it hasn't.

I realize that I am projecting my experiences in marriage onto your situation, which is unfair and biased. More importantly, it's not my marriage and what works for me may not work for anyone else much less you. I have said before that I am risk-averse when it comes to this sort of thing.

Respectfully

 

[pplwatching]

Moving this from a PM to the thread at Kim's suggestion :

I am not a fan of the rocks analogy, in particular because if building a second pile of rocks means that the maintenance work isn't being done to keep the first pile of rocks from falling down then the analogy doesn't hold. The rocks may not be coming off of that pile, but a rockslide is devastating and hard to repair, and the first pile may be where the most attention is needed while you're building that second pile. We don't always see the forces at work under the pile and can't always split our attention. As a risk-averse person, my attention goes to the things that I think are most important, including maintenance work on my marriage. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it seems require my undivided attention.

That's not to say that you don't think that your marriage is important. Only that I think that you may be underestimating the risk and need to keep your focus there.

I understand your point but I think you're confusing the metaphors - the rocks are love, not the marriage. That's an entirely different structure.
A better analogy is maybe children. If you have more than one child, do you have a limited amount of love to share between them?
What you're talking is really time, attention, whatever.

I do tend to mix up love and marriage, but that's part of my personality and how I tend to think. Still, even if the rocks are love it seems to me that love isn't static. It's more like a balloon than a rock. We fill it up, and then it slowly deflates unless we keep coming back to put more air in it. Maybe that goes back to what you're saying about time. It takes time to go back around re-filling the balloons, making time the lynch-pin.

I don't think that children are an appropriate analogy either. Loving children is about investing a huge amount of time and resources in them - which goes back to time. Even when my wife and I were starting out we felt that we had an obligation not to have more children than we could nurture and care for. Learning to accept that they will be who they will be was kind of an eye opener, even though we already knew it. We have to love them even when they aren't who we might necessarily want them to have become, and even now that they are young adults it's a pretty big emotional investment. I might have infinite love for my kids, but they can be emotionally draining.

 

[KimGordon67]

That is precisely why, in my opinion this relationship is a threat to your marriage. I know that there is more of your story yet to unfold, but a recurring theme (unless I am misreading) is that your husband doesn't know the whole story and you withhold that information from him. You give yourself to your lover and withhold yourself from your husband. Perhaps not in the sexual sense or even in the emotional sense, but this relationship has already fundamentally altered your relationship with your husband even though you seem to be saying that it hasn't.

I realize that I am projecting my experiences in marriage onto your situation, which is unfair and biased. More importantly, it's not my marriage and what works for me may not work for anyone else much less you. I have said before that I am risk-averse when it comes to this sort of thing.

Respectfully

I understand your point. I don't think that I'm withholding myself from my husband though ... although I would never give myself totally to anyone. The boyfriend knows that what we have is only ever temporary, for the time that we're together - I've said to him more than once that my family is always my priority. And of course our relationship has changed - relationships alter all the time, for all sorts of reasons ... I'm not saying that it hasn't changed at all. In fact, I think I said somewhere before that his willingness to try this ultimately just increased my love and respect for him. And I'm more inclined to be kinder and generous in our marriage because I don't feel constrained by it. I get that choosing to not give him certain bits of information may make it seem that I'm 'withholding', and technically I guess I am ... it's complicated, because I understand that it makes it seem that he can't trust me. But I am utterly committed to doing things in a way that doesn't hurt him unnecessarily. I'm not always perfect at that, but really, who is perfect at doing relationships? And as I admitted, I've not revealed a lot of things ... but ultimately the thing I have been honest about is, really, far more significant than any of the things I've chosen to keep to myself.

We could say that if I really loved him, I'd give up the other relationship and live the monogamous marriage he really wants. And I've said, at various points, that I would do that if that was what he needed. But ultimately he was the one who said why should his preference take priority over mine.

I understand there are aspects of this which don't cast me in a particularly favourable light, and I feel that way myself. I guess I'm at a point where attempting to rectify that would, I think, cause more harm than good. I've clearly been a bit reckless at times, but I've also thought fairly carefully at other times about the greater good ... if certain things make me happy and ultimately aren't of detriment to others, then I think it's OK for me to have those things. Whether you think those things are detrimental to others is, I guess, dependent on your position on marriage as an institution. I can't remember if I said this earlier, but we've always been quite clear that we are our own people. When we married, the only thing we actually promised was to love each other - we never made any vows regarding fidelity or anything like that. And we did that because we took what we were saying pretty seriously.

Thanks for your thoughts ... I do always appreciate a different perspective (if it's expressed thoughtfully, rather than the diatribe that whatever-him-name was engaged in a thousand posts ago).

 

[pplwatching]

I personally believe that marriage is a commitment to constant personal change. I have to accept that I am a work in progress, and not only accept that my wife is too but to encourage, love, and support her as she grows into the person that she will become. I am ready and willing to accept that part of that growth may be a deep desire to experience things that are not within my comfort zone in marriage, such as loving more than one person. I would no doubt struggle with it, but I would make an effort to understand it. I don't think that I can ever be all and everything for her sexually or otherwise, but hope that our efforts to work together to compromise on important things (even sex) keeps her needs met. If they didn't, and she wanted to follow in your footsteps I would certainly not judge or abandon her. That's part of loving her unconditionally. It's an interesting hypothetical that would certainly be a challenge in reality.

Edited to add that it's interesting that we were writing about similar points at the same time.

 

[KimGordon67]

Moving this from a PM to the thread at Kim's suggestion :






I do tend to mix up love and marriage, but that's part of my personality and how I tend to think. Still, even if the rocks are love it seems to me that love isn't static. It's more like a balloon than a rock. We fill it up, and then it slowly deflates unless we keep coming back to put more air in it. Maybe that goes back to what you're saying about time. It takes time to go back around re-filling the balloons, making time the lynch-pin.

I don't think that children are an appropriate analogy either. Loving children is about investing a huge amount of time and resources in them - which goes back to time. Even when my wife and I were starting out we felt that we had an obligation not to have more children than we could nurture and care for. Learning to accept that they will be who they will be was kind of an eye opener, even though we already knew it. We have to love them even when they aren't who we might necessarily want them to have become, and even now that they are young adults it's a pretty big emotional investment. I might have infinite love for my kids, but they can be emotionally draining.

This happened after I'd written my lengthy response to your prior posts.
Trust me, the balloon gets refilled. The boyfriend really gets very little of my time ... maybe I hadn't made that clear, but we spend a night together every six weeks or so, sometimes more depending on circumstances. We do talk on the phone a bit, but only when I'm away for work, which would be time I wasn't spending with my family anyway. Me and my husband put a huge amount of care and energy into our marriage.

I think children are a good analogy, because they demonstrate that love is infinite. And I don't have more relationships that I can nurture and care for ... it just happens that, for me, that number is more than the traditional 'one'. Love isn't the problem here, if there is a problem ... it's other things.

 

[pplwatching]

I think children are a good analogy, because they demonstrate that love is infinite. And I don't have more relationships that I can nurture and care for ... it just happens that, for me, that number is more than the traditional 'one'. Love isn't the problem here, if there is a problem ... it's other things.

I think that here the English language starts showing its limitations. The Greeks have different words for different kinds of love.

Eros - sexual passion. The Greeks viewed this kind of love as passionate and dangerous.
Philia - deep friendship
Storge - the love of parents for their children.
Ludus - playful love, affection between children or young lovers
Pragma - longstanding, deep, mature love or love between married couples

I believe that we can have limitless love for our children (Storge), and big and warm hearted people can have Phila to spread around. I don't question that we can have boundless Pragma, but do question whether having more than one lover can affect how deeply we might love each.

A more detailed set of definitions can be found here (but I can't vouch for their accuracy)

 

[KimGordon67]

I think that here the English language starts showing its limitations. The Greeks have different words for different kinds of love.

Eros - sexual passion. The Greeks viewed this kind of love as passionate and dangerous.
Philia - deep friendship
Storge - the love of parents for their children.
Ludus - playful love, affection between children or young lovers
Pragma - longstanding, deep, mature love or love between married couples

I believe that we can have limitless love for our children (Storge), and big and warm hearted people can have Phila to spread around. I don't question that we can have boundless Pragma, but do question whether having more than one lover can affect how deeply we might love each.

A more detailed set of definitions can be found here (but I can't vouch for their accuracy)

Someone a while ago linked to an article that talked about one of the problems with long-standing poly relationships is 'new relationship energy' - which I guess can be translated as ludus - and the need to recognise the situational nature of that feeling, and not mistake it for 'real love' (or, I guess, pragma). I would say my husband and me share a very longstanding love. What I have with the boyfriend remains to be seen ... maybe more eros. Possibly the trick is containing the danger. I think, whether consciously or not, I've always had mechanisms in place to ensure that happens - with previous lovers it was a huge fuck-off ocean; in this instance, it's also distance, although there's no oceans.

 

[1mherenow]

Polyamourous

I just started reading this thread (and ended up reading all of it).... You write very well.... I will definitely subscribe to this thread. Well written and an interesting story.....

The one friend I do have that are polyamourous (openly) doesn´t have relationships like yours at all..... She used to live with two bf´s and the guys in that relationship were also bf´s to each other..... And when that ended, she got together with a woman who is a lesbian, and later on my friend got a bf as well. Now she has to divide her time between the two because her lesbian gf is, of course, not interested in my friend's bf.... To me, being polyamorous just seems to be a mess where people always gets hurt and you always feel guilt towards the person you are not currently together with.... I´ve seen her struggles....

But if being polyamourous also could mean a relationship that sounds more like having a lover..... I guess I could be polyamourous as well....

 

[quietlylooking]

Someone a while ago linked to an article that talked about one of the problems with long-standing poly relationships is 'new relationship energy' - which I guess can be translated as ludus - and the need to recognise the situational nature of that feeling, and not mistake it for 'real love' (or, I guess, pragma). I would say my husband and me share a very longstanding love. What I have with the boyfriend remains to be seen ... maybe more eros. Possibly the trick is containing the danger. I think, whether consciously or not, I've always had mechanisms in place to ensure that happens - with previous lovers it was a huge fuck-off ocean; in this instance, it's also distance, although there's no oceans.

Perhaps "new relationship energy" is more related to Eros than Ludus? That fantastic yet perilous state where sleep is optional and anything other than being with that other person seems... dull and a hindrance?

 

[Olderthanthat]

I just started reading this thread (and ended up reading all of it).... I will definitely subscribe....

Now she has to divide her time...An open relationship, of any kind, cannot succeed where one feels constrained to behave in a manner other than that which one would choose of one's own volition.

Being polyamorous just seems to be a mess where people always gets hurt and you always feel guilt... Inherent in adopting an open relationship lifestyle, I think, is a desire and commitment to work to, as best as one can, unlearn the jealousy and possessiveness which are instilled in us as kids as what we should feel. It's hardly an easy task, believe me! I, for one, feel psychologically healthier for having made the effort, one which I continue to make.

 

[1mherenow]

It's hardly an easy task, believe me!

I believe you!!! That's why I wrote that i think it's a mess....

 

[KimGordon67]

I just started reading this thread (and ended up reading all of it).... You write very well.... I will definitely subscribe to this thread. Well written and an interesting story.....

The one friend I do have that are polyamourous (openly) doesn´t have relationships like yours at all..... She used to live with two bf´s and the guys in that relationship were also bf´s to each other..... And when that ended, she got together with a woman who is a lesbian, and later on my friend got a bf as well. Now she has to divide her time between the two because her lesbian gf is, of course, not interested in my friend's bf.... To me, being polyamorous just seems to be a mess where people always gets hurt and you always feel guilt towards the person you are not currently together with.... I´ve seen her struggles....

But if being polyamourous also could mean a relationship that sounds more like having a lover..... I guess I could be polyamourous as well....

To be honest I would probably prefer something more along the lines you describe. I'm not sure if what I'm doing technically falls into the definition of polyamory ... I guess 'ethical non-monogamy' is maybe a more precise description.

 

[KimGordon67]

I believe you!!! That's why I wrote that i think it's a mess....

I'm not sure 'not easy' and 'a mess' are quite the same thing ... I think what I've chosen is definitely 'not easy', but I'm not a great for doing what everyone else does just because it's what everyone else does. My theory (yet to demonstrated) is that monogamy is the next social norm to be broken down after same-sex relations.

 

[1mherenow]

I'm not sure 'not easy' and 'a mess' are quite the same thing ... I think what I've chosen is definitely 'not easy', but I'm not a great for doing what everyone else does just because it's what everyone else does. My theory (yet to demonstrated) is that monogamy is the next social norm to be broken down after same-sex relations.

I don't think "not easy" is the same as "a mess"... But in this context i think "not easy" will easily lead into a mess.... At least when it comes to the way my friend lives her life, which, as I wrote, is different then yours....

 

[KimGordon67]

I don't think "not easy" is the same as "a mess"... But in this context i think "not easy" will easily lead into a mess.... At least when it comes to the way my friend lives her life, which, as I wrote, is different then yours....

Do you think the mess is maybe more to do with how the different people managed the situation, rather than the situation itself? I certainly know a lot of monogamous people who have marriages that are pretty messy ... I don't think that's because of marriage itself.

 

[1mherenow]

To be honest I would probably prefer something more along the lines you describe.

Good luck. I mean it... Just because something doesn't fit me, doesn't mean it can't work for others....

 

[1mherenow]

Do you think the mess is maybe more to do with how the different people managed the situation, rather than the situation itself? I certainly know a lot of monogamous people who have marriages that are pretty messy ... I don't think that's because of marriage itself.

I believe communication can be hard.... The older I get, the harder i think it is.... So much wants, wishes and needs. So many unsaid things. So many things get misinterpreted. So many people are having a hard time communicating just the two of them..... And then you add another person in the mix? A person who might not like/be able to communicate with your other partner despite the fact that he/she loves you..... Then I think you are heading for a situation where you feel torn between the two.

I´m sure there are people who will be able to manage this. I don´t think poly is going to be "a big thing" though.....

 

[KimGordon67]

I believe communication can be hard.... The older I get, the harder i think it is.... So much wants, wishes and needs. So many unsaid things. So many things get misinterpreted. So many people are having a hard time communicating just the two of them..... And then you add another person in the mix? A person who might not like/be able to communicate with your other partner despite the fact that he/she loves you..... Then I think you are heading for a situation where you feel torn between the two.

I´m sure there are people who will be able to manage this. I don´t think poly is going to be "a big thing" though.....

I guess I'm a glass-half-full kind of girl. I instead see more people to love, more care in my life, more people that I want to spend time with ... I love being in love, so being in love more is a good thing for me.
I know we have to work at our relationships, but I try to not feel them as 'work'. They've mostly a joy in my life. More relationships = more joy.

 

[1mherenow]

I guess I'm a glass-half-full kind of girl. I instead see more people to love, more care in my life, more people that I want to spend time with ... I love being in love, so being in love more is a good thing for me.
I know we have to work at our relationships, but I try to not feel them as 'work'. They've mostly a joy in my life. More relationships = more joy.

I get that your intentions are like that.... And you are the one who are in love.... The others might not be (with each other), but since they share you, they will have to work it out and that is where I see potential troubles.... What if you, hubby and mr X do get along fine on an everyday basis (like you said you wanted, not only every 6 weeks that you wrote somewhere) and then one of them brings another girl into the mix? And you have to hang out with someone you might not like at all...?

I am of course biased having this friend of mine.... She doesn´t want to change her life. She is who she is and she is poly and bisexual. But I also see her struggles and I'm glad it´s not for me.... Actually, I have another friend who expressed her poly and bi- tendencies a while back.... But so far she hasn´t acted upon them..... I wonder how that´ll work out if she does..... Lots of kids in that mix......

 

[KimGordon67]

I get that your intentions are like that.... And you are the one who are in love.... The others might not be (with each other), but since they share you, they will have to work it out and that is where I see potential troubles.... What if you, hubby and mr X do get along fine on an everyday basis (like you said you wanted, not only every 6 weeks that you wrote somewhere) and then one of them brings another girl into the mix? And you have to hang out with someone you might not like at all...?

I am of course biased having this friend of mine.... She doesn´t want to change her life. She is who she is and she is poly and bisexual. But I also see her struggles and I'm glad it´s not for me.... Actually, I have another friend who expressed her poly and bi- tendencies a while back.... But so far she hasn´t acted upon them..... I wonder how that´ll work out if she does..... Lots of kids in that mix......

My husband and the boyfriend have never met each other ... so in that respect, I guess it's not technically 'poly' in the full sense of the term. It would make me happy if they did get on, but neither of them are interested in that, so I have to respect that.
I actually just assumed the boyfriend was seeing other women for the first year - I was sort of surprised when he said he wasn't.
Me and my husband have talked about him dating someone, but it's never really happened. I don't think he's wired that way. I'd like to meet her, if he did, but I can't see it ever really happening. Who knows though?

 

[1mherenow]

My husband and the boyfriend have never met each other ... so in that respect, I guess it's not technically 'poly' in the full sense of the term. It would make me happy if they did get on, but neither of them are interested in that, so I have to respect that.
I actually just assumed the boyfriend was seeing other women for the first year - I was sort of surprised when he said he wasn't.
Me and my husband have talked about him dating someone, but it's never really happened. I don't think he's wired that way. I'd like to meet her, if he did, but I can't see it ever really happening. Who knows though?

I really don´t know the definition of poly.... I just assumed it was the way my friend has been doing it.... Yours sounded more like you have a lover.... But I guess, in some sense, that could be some sort of poly too...? In my mind I always thought that if you are poly you love more than one in the same way (just as much). But you seem to have a family that is number one and then a person on the side..... And you would go with your family if "shit hits the fan".

 

[KimGordon67]

I really don´t know the definition of poly.... I just assumed it was the way my friend has been doing it.... Yours sounded more like you have a lover.... But I guess, in some sense, that could be some sort of poly too...? In my mind I always thought that if you are poly you love more than one in the same way (just as much). But you seem to have a family that is number one and then a person on the side..... And you would go with your family if "shit hits the fan".

Technically 'polyamorous' would just mean loving more than one person. It's certainly not uncommon for people in poly situation to have a primary relationship, and for others to be secondary.