How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Tryharder62]

Yeah, I was raised and catechized as a MS Lutheran. I actually made it a point to read and learn, not only the bible, but the history of Christianity, the actual history, not the limited, cherry-picked story fed to the sheep.
Paul was an innovator who didn't insist that men had to chop off part of their dicks to be part of his particular mystery cult. Nothing all that spectacular about understanding the demographic to which one is trying to peddle one's wares.

And a youtube video that does not cite sources means just as much as referring to the sales brochure as "evidence", i.e. sweet fuck all. Don't care he's a cold case detective. Arguments from authority which don't cite sources or refer to peer-reviewed literature, especially those which have a demonstrable bias, are on par with a tv infomercial.
You've done nothing more than demonstrate your inability to justify your belief or prove that you're little more than an Easter and X-mas Christian, except you maybe go once a week.
Well, that and to demonstrate you have zero understanding of the concept of intellectual honesty or objectively demonstrable, independently verifiable evidence.

Seriously, you think a fucking youtube vid and a website with uncited sources equals "more evidence for the existence of Jesus than the existence of Julius Caesar".

But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself.

Oh, and BTW, fuck you for making me agree with eyer on ANYTHING.
Seriously, Fuck You with eyer's wrinkly limp dick, right from the same hole you spew your hypocritical religious crap.

The You tube video did site the sources. You just don't like that he is is defending the gospels. He also sited the writings of the other men who had dealings with the "eye witnesses" outside the bible. Like he has pointed out there is no way I am going to be able to answer your questions so there is no possible doubt. But there is enough evidence to prove Jesus existed beyond a reasonable doubt. I have no doubt that you have studied into the bible and the history of Christianity, but so have I. Thank you for watching the video. I thought it was fascinating. Sorry that you did not.

Again, I am amazed at the amount of anger that exists in your post. You were nice enough to share you faith history so I will tell you mine. I was raised a Christmas and Easter Catholic. In college I couldn't really reconcile the abuse that I grew up in. It's hard to explain but after I got away from it for the first time it all hit me like a rock. I had two true friends in college one a Southern Baptist and One that was Evangelical Free. I studied and finally one night I asked God to help me if he was out there. It's been a ride ever since then. I settled into an Independent Baptist denomination. My nursing career I worked 17 years as a mental health nurse in a hospital and the community. Now I work in a hospital program that bases nurse out of churches. I worked as a nurse in a Methodist church and now work in a Catholic church. (I'm in one church or another almost every day!) This comic kind of gives my thoughts on denominations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRCHVWEkOU8. It's short.

When I see so much anger in the post I wonder if there has been some terrible experience with a Christ follower. I hope not but it can happen. Imagine you have been to the most wonderful pizza place that had the most amazing pizza you have ever had. Then a group of your friends gets together and start talking about pizza places. Wow you just want to share every bit about the amazing pizza place so that they will try it. Put that on steroids and magnify it a million times and you might get the amazing way Christians feel about Christ. You just have to share at the right time and place instead of shoving "pizza" down someone's throat.

There are a lot of ways to sin. Even if you look at just the seven deadly sins in the bible I expect at times I have committed all of them. I'm glad I don't have to be perfect. If I was perfect I wouldn't need a savior.

Have a good one!
Tryharder62 (not perfect but I tryharder lol)

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

if you want heaven, you have to fight your hardest to create it here. nothing is guaranteed.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Wow.

Your ignorance of even the history and origins of your own faith is absolutely stunning.

You know that bible you profess to follow?
Where and when did you think it was compiled?

Do you recite the Nicene Creed? How about the Apostolic Creed?
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? As Jesus as both human and God? The physical existence of said Jesus?

Do you have even the slightest fucking clue as to when, where or under whose direction all those things were decided?

Perhaps you should look into the First Council of Nicaea, which was called into existence by,

Wait for it,

The Emperor Constantine I in 325 CE.


And which "church" are you a part of? How do you know the doctrines espoused by your particular denomination are correct? Have you or anyone in your "church" tested any of your doctrines against observable reality?
How do you know that you and your fellow sheep are following the "true church" instead of having been deceived by The Accuser, aka The Adversary, aka Satan?

Oh, right, your "faith" in horseshit you cannot demonstrate nor will not put to the test.

Because when it comes to religion, ignorance is not only bliss, it's absolutely necessary.

I do not recite the Nicene Creed or the Apostolic Creed. I am not a Catholic. I do know where the Bible was canonized at the council of Nicea. Yep. Stop swearing at me or I won't engage you. There are different cannons of the Bible, depending on which denomination you belong to. Catholics accept books that protestants do not. They are the Apocryphal writings. Yes I believe in the Holy Trinity. Jesus is God in the flesh. I am not going to argue about the history of the Catholic Church. Let's just say that I am not a Catholic.


THIS VIDEO WILL EXPLAIN HOW THE NEW TESTAMENT OF THE BIBLE WAS CANONIZED (CAME TO BE):

WHOLE VIDEO:

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=D76LD7NX

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm glad I don't have to be perfect. If I was perfect I wouldn't need a savior.

Have a good one!
Tryharder62 (not perfect but I tryharder lol)

If your god wasn't so hateful towards his imperfect creations you wouldn't need a savior either.

 

[eyerami]

I do not recite the Nicene Creed or the Apostolic Creed. I am not a Catholic. I do know where the Bible was canonized at the council of Nicea. Yep. Stop swearing at me or I won't engage you. There are different cannons of the Bible, depending on which denomination you belong to. Catholics accept books that protestants do not. They are the Apocryphal writings. Yes I believe in the Holy Trinity. Jesus is God in the flesh. I am not going to argue about the history of the Catholic Church. Let's just say that I am not a Catholic.

Then why not just plainly state what dripping from Constantine's universal (catholic) church you consider yourself a member of today?

Do you believe that the Christ appeared to Constantine the night before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge?

Can you share with the GB the status of your "Church" leading up to that night and the next day? (its name back then; what it was preaching; what it was claiming to be its words of God, etc).

Was the Christ a Jew?

Did he ever renounce being Jewish; did her ever dismiss his Jewish religion?

Can you cite from any Holy Bible where the Christ proclaimed he came to create a new religion and be the leader of it?

You state, "Jesus is God in the flesh"...

Can you reference anywhere in God's Words which reveal his insistence that this world needed another religion and it should be called "Christianity"?

If neither the Son, the Father, or the Holy Spirit proclaimed that a new religion must be born...

...who, then, did create this "Christianity" you claim as your own?

 

[Tryharder62]

If your god wasn't so hateful towards his imperfect creations you wouldn't need a savior either.

Hey Botany,

I tell you I for one don't know why some things happen. If I were God I wouldn't give any of you a choice but to love me and worship me. ( Yes, even Eyer ) I sure as hell wouldn't make a very young girl like me get molested for 6 years!!! I wouldn't make children sick or anyone sick for that matter. Pretty much I would tell you all exactly what to do and give you no choice. Can't debate my power because you have no choice. I would make my apostles those who could cook since I won't get fatter. Since I will exist forever I will set up a diet pepsi plant just for me. (Nasty stuff but can't kick it).

Now some could argue that I went through what I went through in order to help people who had gone through it too. I have done that. It is hard to understand though why he still "allowed' things to happen.

I truly think it takes a much bigger God than me to give us choice. With choices comes consequences not just to bad people but to good people too.

I know you've heard the free will or choice argument many times. So why did I say it again for you? My birthday is in July, but I wasn't born of a virgin. No I am not dissing my mother. I could make you a disciple by then. Do you cook? Have access to diet pepsi?

Live long and prosper, (Hey, I like that)
Tryharder

 

[eyerami]

Give it up for Joel Osteen and His Bubble Gum Christianity Machine, everybody.

 

[Jennifer]

I haven't read this thread as its too long and no doubt tedious.

But I have to say that I'm surprised in 2016 any rational person believes in this shit.

 

[nerfhearder]

I was surprised (but not too much) that this thread was still here. Constant bickering over something that no living person will ever know is dumb. Might as well argue over what happens in a black hole or what was there before the big bang. Impossible to know so why fight over it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Hey Botany,


Now some could argue that I went through what I went through in order to help people who had gone through it too. I have done that. It is hard to understand though why he still "allowed' things to happen.

I truly think it takes a much bigger God than me to give us choice. With choices comes consequences not just to bad people but to good people too.

I'm not talking about the bullshit choices in life. Or even the suffering that goes on all over, thanks for that god!! Hey he's all knowing and in control right?

I'm talking about his direct threat and contradiction that he loves us, but he made us flawed and we must unquestioningly worship and love him, following all his mostly irrational rules against these 'flaws' that HE gave us or face eternal agony.....

"I love you so much I made you all fucked up but if you don't love me back for fucking you up I'll torture you eternally because I love you so much - Gawd" is how I view Christianity.

That's like the mafia....pay us protection money to protect yourself form what we will do to you if you don't pay us the protection money.

It's a seriously asshole move at the very leas. Most of the civilized world considers that shit criminal.

 

[Tryharder62]

I'm not talking about the bullshit choices in life. Or even the suffering that goes on all over, thanks for that god!! Hey he's all knowing and in control right?

I'm talking about his direct threat and contradiction that he loves us, but he made us flawed and we must unquestioningly worship and love him, following all his mostly irrational rules against these 'flaws' that HE gave us or face eternal agony.....

"I love you so much I made you all fucked up but if you don't love me back for fucking you up I'll torture you eternally because I love you so much - Gawd" is how I view Christianity.

That's like the mafia....pay us protection money to protect yourself form what we will do to you if you don't pay us the protection money.

It's a seriously asshole move at the very leas. Most of the civilized world considers that shit criminal.

He didn't make us all fucked up. We fucked ourselves up. He doesn't ask us to love him but to believe in him. If you don't believe in him why are you worried about eternal torture.

 

[BotanyBoy]

He didn't make us all fucked up.

Did he not create us? Either he made us, flaws and all, or he did not.

We fucked ourselves up.

LOL so he's not really in control is he? Some god....

He doesn't ask us to love him but to believe in him.

Fine, believe in me or I'll torture you for eternity because I love you so much.

In the modern world we call that a psychopath.

If you don't believe in him why are you worried about eternal torture.

I'm not worried about eternal torture.

 

[Tryharder62]

Did he not create us? Either he made us, flaws and all, or he did not.

He made us perfect. Put us in a perfect place. We chose not to listen to his instructions.

LOL so he's not really in control is he? Some god....

He is in control. It's the whole choice thing. He gives us choice. It won't always be that way.

Fine, believe in me or I'll torture you for eternity because I love you so much.

I have no problem with this. Like I said if you believe in him why worry. If you don't believe in him why worry. If I'm right I'll be in heaven. If I'm wrong I'll fertilize a tree with you. I'll have lived the way I want to with a pretty cool mentor.

I'm not worried about eternal torture.

I really hope you have peace. Sorry I thought we could joke with each other earlier. My bad.

 

[BotanyBoy]

He made us perfect. Put us in a perfect place. We chose not to listen to his instructions.

Obviously we aren't perfect because we aren't listening. So he makes us flawed and then punishes us for it.

Do you not see how fucked up that is?

He is in control. It's the whole choice thing. He gives us choice. It won't always be that way.

If we are choosing then he's not in control. It's one or the other you can't have both.

I have no problem with this.

Clearly. It's not a matter of worry it's a matter of how fucked up it is to threaten something you allegedly created and supposedly have ENDLESS love for....with TORTURE.

Like I said when humans do that we call it psychopathy.

I really hope you have peace. Sorry I thought we could joke with each other earlier. My bad.

I do have peace.

No need to apologize, I just don't see anything funny in threats of torture like you and your god do.

 

[phrodeau]

There can't be eternal torture. Lewis Carroll made that clear.

http://www.skepticaleye.com/2008/01/lewis-carrol-on-eternal-punishment.html

 

[Tryharder62]

Botany,

True love cares enough to punish wrongdoing. For this reason, a God of love must also be a God of justice, recognizing separating and punishing wrongdoers. God's love requires the provision of human freedom, and free will necessitates consequences. Finally the power of God necessitates victory. God's victory of evil will be achieved in eternity.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

What you believe is fine for you but don't even try to get up in my face about it. I don't care what you believe. My relationship with my God doesn't need your help.

I am not in your face, but you are in my thread. You chose to click on this thread and engage it. If you don't want to discuss it, kindly move on to the next thread.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Regarding this issue, there exists just 3 types of man:

1. The Natural Man: he is incapable of acknowledging any greater intellectual power than man himself. That "great" intellectualism of his commands that nothing truly exists which can't be physically demonstrated - which foolishly rules out any spiritualism (in the forms of everything non-physical/non-material which does exist) existing at all. The natural man maintains no Creator is needed to explain existence itself - shit, as natural man loves to put on Tshirts - just happens.

2. The Carnal Man: he is the prototypical fence sitter - one foot perpetually in the natural world and one foot perpetually in the spiritual world. The carnal man is one who proclaims "faith" and sometimes even "belief" in a Creator he knows exists, yet never can progress further because he adores the natural world just as much [see 1 John 2:15-17]. Thus, the carnal man is one of the "many are called"...

3 The Spiritual Man: he is one of the "few are chosen"; he inherently understands that the immortality of human life is ALL spiritual, that everything that is physical/material naturally dies, that it is only the spirit's essence which lives after death (eg: the memories of our loved ones establishing their presences in our lives and others long after they've gone, the love we still hold for them, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum). The spiritual man has progressed beyond "a mustard seed of faith", beyond mere "belief", to the level of spiritual knowledge - the final stage of human evolution:

The kingdom of heaven on earth.

Actually, there are only two. The carnal and the natural man are one and the same.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

You think I lack intellectual honesty because I don't agree with you.

I have always enjoyed discussions on here. Phrodeau has knowledge of the bible that blows me away even though we don't agree. I don't even mind Eyer calling me a Harlot. He can have his opinion.

On here, though, I have never been able to get anyone to acknowledge that Jesus even lived here on earth. Not as a son of God but just a person who lived here for 33 years. However there is more evidence to say that he did then there is that Julius Caesar lived. (Yes, I am excluding the bible.) No one questions Julius Ceasar's part in history. People question my intelligence and say there is no Jesus, yet date their checks using the date, 2016 (AD). After His death. It's common sense.

Tell them about this:

http://www.nelsonprice.com/early-secular-writings-regarding-christ/

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

TACITUS: (55-117) A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”
PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.
“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”
BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”
THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”
Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.
JUSTIN MARTYR: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew.
HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.
“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences.
And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.
JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.
SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

So the given option, "Other" didn't have any pre-defined meaning so you could play a goal-shifting post-hoc word game as it suits you?

Sure, that sounds totally legit. No problems here.

Some people will read into anything. Tiii I put it there for those who can't a definite answer. No other reason. I wrote it. I aught to know, NOT you.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Hey, xfrodobagginsx:

What about this question:

I am sure this source if fairly accurate. Read it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ok.


1SB posted this...



And you posted this in direct response.





How do you figure that one can't believe in evolution without loyalty to an ideology and a belief in something that cannot be demonstrated to be congruent with observable reality??

Are you actually claiming that scientific theory is the same a religious ideology?

Because evolution cannot be proven. There is no evidence that one kind of animal evolved into another kind of animal. The examples of mutations that you see are merely examples of lateral adaptation, aka micro evolution. Darwinian evolution (Macro evolution-one kind of animal evolving into another) has never been shown to happen ever. That would require an increase in genetic information which doesn't happen. What DOES happen is a reshuffling of existing DNA or even a DELETION of existing DNA, which results in the different kinds of Dogs, Cats, Horses, ect. There is no half Dog, half Cat species per se. There is no half Horse, half Cow, per se. animal fossils ever found between any two animal kinds. I think I already discussed this within this thread.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

There can't be eternal torture. Lewis Carroll made that clear.

http://www.skepticaleye.com/2008/01/lewis-carrol-on-eternal-punishment.html

If that was his view, then he was wrong. That is not Biblical.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

I haven't read this thread as its too long and no doubt tedious.

But I have to say that I'm surprised in 2016 any rational person believes in this shit.

Lu 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 "They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

If your god wasn't so hateful towards his imperfect creations you wouldn't need a savior either.

God isn't hateful toward His creations. Man feels that way because of Man's fallen nature. God didn't create us sinners, Adam chose to sin. We all choose to sin. Once a person accepts Christ's free gift of salvation, his view of God also changes to what it's supposed to be.

Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can't please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.