Being a "Woman"

[GIRLTOGIRL222]

I wonder how many people know what' it's like to be trapped in the wrong body when you are past 55. You live your whole life pretending to be some one else, pretending to be macho, pretrending to ogle of naked girls, yet being more intrested in what their wearing,or their hairstyle etc.
When you make love to a girl you wish it was you on the reciving end,when you go out you wish it was you in the skirt or dress looking in the shop windows ay the clothes.
You know now at your age you will never pass as a girl, only as a man dressed as a girl, all you can do is dream. You can never let on to anybody what you feel, as you will branded as a pervert.
Life is so short but pain is so much longer.
I just feel so sad at the moment, so lost.
But love to you all anyway,
Jenny xxx

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wonder how many people know what' it's like to be trapped in the wrong body when you are past 55. You live your whole life pretending to be some one else, pretending to be macho, pretrending to ogle of naked girls, yet being more intrested in what their wearing,or their hairstyle etc.
When you make love to a girl you wish it was you on the reciving end,when you go out you wish it was you in the skirt or dress looking in the shop windows ay the clothes.
You know now at your age you will never pass as a girl, only as a man dressed as a girl, all you can do is dream. You can never let on to anybody what you feel, as you will branded as a pervert.
Life is so short but pain is so much longer.
I just feel so sad at the moment, so lost.
But love to you all anyway,
Jenny xxx

Hey there Jenny, I'm sorry you're having a tough time. It's a hard world for trans folk, but there are people who'll accept you as a woman and don't care whether you "pass". You might find some friendly folk over in this thread: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=960170&page=62

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

Deleted

 

[Kantarii]

I don't buy into all this nonsense about being "born" in the wrong body. Sorry, but to me it's Horseshit! I'm a transvestite. We are who we are based on the choices we make. Any I am not about to let anyone else tell me about the choices I made across my life time. I choose who I am, I choose who I am attracted to, I choose who I am intimate with. Saying something as fucking retarded as "I was born this way" holds no weight with me. I was given a brain an the ability to think rationally. No one is "born" any other way except as a rationally thinking human being. Own up to your choices, stand responsible for your actions; above all stop using bullshit as a crutch to justify to yourself and to others who you are as a person. You'll be much happier when you accept who you are yourself and stop worrying about what others think.

I know this seems harsh, but the truth is you alone should take ownership of who you are as a person. No one is gonna correct a mistake made by nature that to me doesn't exist except in one's mind.

 

[Penuche]

I don't buy into all this nonsense about being "born" in the wrong body. Sorry, but to me it's Horseshit! I'm a transvestite. <snip> I know this seems harsh, but the truth is you alone should take ownership of who you are as a person. No one is gonna correct a mistake made by nature that to me doesn't exist except in one's mind.

With all due respect, being a transvestite doesn't give you the ability to know whether a transexual's perception of the body they were born in is valid.

What I can tell you is that the distress felt by some transexual people every day is very real indeed - real enough to push some into suicide.

Edited to add: Being trans isn't merely about clothes. A friend of mine who's transitioning to the female body she's always wanted has gradually cut down on make up (electrolysis means there's no stubble to conceal) and she prefers to dress in what some might consider the more boyish end of women's clothing.

This doesn't make her a gay man in denial, nor does it mean that she's mentally flawed - she's as much of a woman as any cis female adult human being.

 

[Kantarii]

With all due respect, being a transvestite doesn't give you the ability to know whether a transexual's perception of the body they were born in is valid.

What I can tell you is that the distress felt by some transexual people every day is very real indeed - real enough to push some into suicide.

Edited to add: Being trans isn't merely about clothes. A friend of mine who's transitioning to the female body she's always wanted has gradually cut down on make up (electrolysis means there's no stubble to conceal) and she prefers to dress in what some might consider the more boyish end of women's clothing.

This doesn't make her a gay man in denial, nor does it mean that she's mentally flawed - she's as much of a woman as any cis female adult human being.

I didn't state I was trying to validate anything. I stated my opinion. And, it's just that - My opinion.
The whole key to my opinion is "we are who we are based on our choices. If someone can disprove that, I'd be more than happy to listen... Other than that, I stand firmly on my "opinion".

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

With all due respect, being a transvestite doesn't give you the ability to know whether a transexual's perception of the body they were born in is valid.

What I can tell you is that the distress felt by some transexual people every day is very real indeed - real enough to push some into suicide.

Edited to add: Being trans isn't merely about clothes. A friend of mine who's transitioning to the female body she's always wanted has gradually cut down on make up (electrolysis means there's no stubble to conceal) and she prefers to dress in what some might consider the more boyish end of women's clothing.

This doesn't make her a gay man in denial, nor does it mean that she's mentally flawed - she's as much of a woman as any cis female adult human being.

I completely agree with you. Skepticism is a powerful thing; it can blind those unwilling to do their own research. Truth be told there's very little knowledge about exactly how we develop our sense of gender. But if we're waiting for measurable scientific proof before we can validate and put into consideration the reality of these people, then might as well say things such as love, anger, grief, etc are a nothing more than a bunch of subjective BS.

 

[Penuche]

<snip> if we're waiting for measurable scientific proof before we can validate and put into consideration the reality of these people, then might as well say things such as love, anger, grief, etc are a nothing more than a bunch of subjective BS.

Or, indeed, justice, mercy, and the other socially convenient abstract things.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't buy into all this nonsense about being "born" in the wrong body. Sorry, but to me it's Horseshit! I'm a transvestite. We are who we are based on the choices we make. Any I am not about to let anyone else tell me about the choices I made across my life time. I choose who I am, I choose who I am attracted to, I choose who I am intimate with.

It's great that you're making those choices for yourself. But when you try to generalise that to tell everybody else that their experience is incorrect, you come across like "well I'm not allergic to peanuts so obviously you aren't either".

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

Or, indeed, justice, mercy, and the other socially convenient abstract things.

A criminal might ask for mercy after committing a crime but it doesn't mean he'll get it. Does he deserve mercy? Who is to make the right decision for this guy? I think I understand what you mean. There are many things in society we take for granted and even consider those enforcing them a violation to our individual freedom. I grew up in a country where such things are virtually nonexistent, resulting in high crime rates, no jobs, petty much the country's a shit hole for the most part. Now having experienced the enormous differences in the dynamics of the society there vs here in America, I'll take the socially convenient things any time of the day.

That's just my 2 cents...doesn't mean it's necessarily true for the rest.

 

[Kantarii]

It's great that you're making those choices for yourself. But when you try to generalise that to tell everybody else that their experience is incorrect, you come across like "well I'm not allergic to peanuts so obviously you aren't either".

Maybe you failed to read this:
I didn't state I was trying to validate anything. I stated my opinion. And, it's just that - My opinion.
The whole key to my opinion is "we are who we are based on our choices. If someone can disprove that, I'd be more than happy to listen... Other than that, I stand firmly on my "opinion". I am not generalizing anyone. I am a human being, not an animal. I can make my own decisions for me. I don't use bullshit as a fucking crutch. I own up to the choices I made. The way I see it, I'm speaking for myself and my opinion. If I am a skeptic... So be it. All I want is "proof" that nature by design made a mistake. I understand the truth not a reality.

It takes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome to create a man during impregnation. Now, prove nature was at fault and flawed in that design. The child grows up, makes choices, becomes a man and continues to make rational choices that he has to live with. The child was conceceived through heterosexual birth since homosexual birth is "impossible". So, again, I say we are who we are based on choices we make. You can't chose your gender, but on a mental level, a person can "choose" who they are attracted to. I'm not going to bow down and change my way of thinking on this matter. Why? Because the other side of the argument has no proof otherwise that a person can be "born" in the wrong body.

<--- still waiting on proof. Otherwise, I'm forever gonna believe the "born" in the wrong body is nothing but a bullshit crutch for people who can't own up to the choices they made to justify their actions in life.

 

[Kantarii]

Here's another fact of life. Acceptance comes at a price just life self-identity. Only self identity has a price most people can't afford to pay. Too few people are willing to take ownership of their choices in there quest for acceptance. I fail to see how crying "I was 'born' in the wrong body is gonna achieve acceptance. Do you really think pressing the government is gonna change mass skeptical opinion? I doubt it. My dad told me the only way to achieve acceptance among one's peers was through a person's actions. End of story. I made choices right or wrong, I took ownership of my choices. I gained respect and acceptance from the people I am in contact with. There is no shame in my game for anything I have accomplished or failed to achieve in life.... And you know what is the best part? I didn't cry about it.... Oh, woe, is me! No one believes I was "born" in the wrong body. I don't use that bullshit crutch to gain "acceptance". I let my actions speak for themselves based against the choices I made and continue to make...Skeptic? You are damn right I'm a skeptic... Give me "proof"!

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

Maybe you failed to read this:
I didn't state I was trying to validate anything. I stated my opinion. And, it's just that - My opinion.
The whole key to my opinion is "we are who we are based on our choices. If someone can disprove that, I'd be more than happy to listen... Other than that, I stand firmly on my "opinion". I am not generalizing anyone. I am a human being, not an animal. I can make my own decisions for me. I don't use bullshit as a fucking crutch. I own up to the choices I made. The way I see it, I'm speaking for myself and my opinion. If I am a skeptic... So be it. All I want is "proof" that nature by design made a mistake. I understand the truth not a reality.

It takes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome to create a man during impregnation. Now, prove nature was at fault and flawed in that design. The child grows up, makes choices, becomes a man and continues to make rational choices that he has to live with. The child was conceceived through heterosexual birth since homosexual birth is "impossible". So, again, I say we are who we are based on choices we make. You can't chose your gender, but on a mental level, a person can "choose" who they are attracted to. I'm not going to bow down and change my way of thinking on this matter. Why? Because the other side of the argument has no proof otherwise that a person can be "born" in the wrong body.

<--- still waiting on proof. Otherwise, I'm forever gonna believe the "born" in the wrong body is nothing but a bullshit crutch for people who can't own up to the choices they made to justify their actions in life.

Actually, there are plenty of studies that show biological differences in brain structure of transgender individuals as a result of differences in receptors or variations of hormone secretions to name a few, that result in improper brain development. The thing with XX XY chromosomes is that the selection is much more complex than just "boy or girl". For every so many thousands born (I don't remember the statistics) there are those born with variations in chromosomes, from a single X to XYYY and so on. And guess who happens to carry these variations? Of course there are those who become transgender as a result of their environment (nurture).

And then, there are people who do better when exposed to adversity and those who dwell in it, letting it consume their whole life...but that's just a whole other subject.

 

[fire_breeze]

Maybe you failed to read this:
I didn't state I was trying to validate anything. I stated my opinion. And, it's just that - My opinion.
The whole key to my opinion is "we are who we are based on our choices. If someone can disprove that, I'd be more than happy to listen... Other than that, I stand firmly on my "opinion". I am not generalizing anyone. I am a human being, not an animal. I can make my own decisions for me. I don't use bullshit as a fucking crutch. I own up to the choices I made. The way I see it, I'm speaking for myself and my opinion. If I am a skeptic... So be it. All I want is "proof" that nature by design made a mistake. I understand the truth not a reality.

It takes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome to create a man during impregnation. Now, prove nature was at fault and flawed in that design. The child grows up, makes choices, becomes a man and continues to make rational choices that he has to live with. The child was conceceived through heterosexual birth since homosexual birth is "impossible". So, again, I say we are who we are based on choices we make. You can't chose your gender, but on a mental level, a person can "choose" who they are attracted to. I'm not going to bow down and change my way of thinking on this matter. Why? Because the other side of the argument has no proof otherwise that a person can be "born" in the wrong body.

<--- still waiting on proof. Otherwise, I'm forever gonna believe the "born" in the wrong body is nothing but a bullshit crutch for people who can't own up to the choices they made to justify their actions in life.

Here's another fact of life. Acceptance comes at a price just life self-identity. Only self identity has a price most people can't afford to pay. Too few people are willing to take ownership of their choices in there quest for acceptance. I fail to see how crying "I was 'born' in the wrong body is gonna achieve acceptance. Do you really think pressing the government is gonna change mass skeptical opinion? I doubt it. My dad told me the only way to achieve acceptance among one's peers was through that person's actions. End of story. I made choices right or wrong, I took ownership of my choices. I gained respect and acceptance from the people I am in contact with. There is no shame in my game for anything I have accomplished or failed to achieve in life.... And you know what is the best part? I didn't cry about it.... Oh, woe, is me! No one believes I was "born" in the wrong body. I don't use that bullshit crutch to gain "acceptance". I let my actions speak for themselves based against the choice I made and continue to make...Skeptic? You are damn right I'm a skeptic... Give me "proof"!

Gender and sex is two completely different things, and genetics is not as simple as X and Y chromosomes. Anyone who has studied people and their activities for a living, will tell you that gender is a social construct. Full stop. I repeat: gender is a social construct. What one society says it means to be a 'female' or 'male' or, as many many societies have, a combination thereof (see nádleehé, two-spirit, mahu, sworn virgins, khawaja sara, Japanese genderqueer, balka, kathoeys, khanith, mashoga amongst many many others). Historically, throughout the world (and yes, even in Christian Europe until about the 16th C), cultures throughout the world recognised gender variance.

If you want biological proof, then please look at ambiguous genitalia (traditionally known as hermaphroditism), ovotestes, Klinefelter's, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, AIS, Swyer syndrome - and many other sex variance. Just look it up. And it's more common than you would assume - the last estimate was 1.7% - 4% of people born are not biologically female or male (that is, Intersexed), according to Peter Koopman (University of Queensland).

If you want articles, then I suggest you read Skylar Curtis, Anne Faust-Sterling, J Imperato-McGinley et al., Olaf Hiort, Heinz-Juergen Voss, and so forth. I chose the authors that discuss the biological nature of 'being born in the wrong body'.

What you have written completely reifies Western European/North American, colonial mentality. And it's wrong as it is not representative of the way most of the world thinks. Therefore, yes, your opinion is based on faulty facts.

I'm bowing out. I'm here to correct the facts, that is all.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Gender and sex is two completely different things, and genetics is not as simple as X and Y chromosomes. Anyone who has studied people and their activities for a living, will tell you that gender is a social construct. Full stop. I repeat: gender is a social construct. What one society says it means to be a 'female' or 'male' or, as many many societies have, a combination thereof (see nádleehé, two-spirit, mahu, sworn virgins, khawaja sara, Japanese genderqueer, balka, kathoeys, khanith, mashoga amongst many many others). Historically, throughout the world (and yes, even in Christian Europe until about the 16th C), cultures throughout the world recognised gender variance.

If you want biological proof, then please look at ambiguous genitalia (traditionally known as hermaphroditism), ovotestes, Klinefelter's, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, AIS, Swyer syndrome - and many other sex variance. Just look it up. And it's more common than you would assume - the last estimate was 1.7% - 4% of people born are not biologically female or male (that is, Intersexed), according to Peter Koopman (University of Queensland).

If you want articles, then I suggest you read Skylar Curtis, Anne Faust-Sterling, J Imperato-McGinley et al., Olaf Hiort, Heinz-Juergen Voss, and so forth. I chose the authors that discuss the biological nature of 'being born in the wrong body'.

What you have written completely reifies Western European/North American, colonial mentality. And it's wrong as it is not representative of the way most of the world thinks. Therefore, yes, your opinion is based on faulty facts.

I'm bowing out. I'm here to correct the facts, that is all.

And a tree is known by its fruit. Boys don't produce eggs, girls don't make sperm. FIREBREEZE exhorts sexual affirmative action minus the right sex to make sperm and eggs....her way is called PRETEND.

 

[Kantarii]

Gender and sex is two completely different things, and genetics is not as simple as X and Y chromosomes. Anyone who has studied people and their activities for a living, will tell you that gender is a social construct. Full stop. I repeat: gender is a social construct. What one society says it means to be a 'female' or 'male' or, as many many societies have, a combination thereof (see nádleehé, two-spirit, mahu, sworn virgins, khawaja sara, Japanese genderqueer, balka, kathoeys, khanith, mashoga amongst many many others). Historically, throughout the world (and yes, even in Christian Europe until about the 16th C), cultures throughout the world recognised gender variance.

If you want biological proof, then please look at ambiguous genitalia (traditionally known as hermaphroditism), ovotestes, Klinefelter's, Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, AIS, Swyer syndrome - and many other sex variance. Just look it up. And it's more common than you would assume - the last estimate was 1.7% - 4% of people born are not biologically female or male (that is, Intersexed), according to Peter Koopman (University of Queensland).

If you want articles, then I suggest you read Skylar Curtis, Anne Faust-Sterling, J Imperato-McGinley et al., Olaf Hiort, Heinz-Juergen Voss, and so forth. I chose the authors that discuss the biological nature of 'being born in the wrong body'.

What you have written completely reifies Western European/North American, colonial mentality. And it's wrong as it is not representative of the way most of the world thinks. Therefore, yes, your opinion is based on faulty facts.

I'm bowing out. I'm here to correct the facts, that is all.

And despite all you said you are obviously trying to get me to accept the fact that some people are just "born" fucking gay like as in some sort of predestination. That, no matter what a person does, it's in their genetics to be gay... The only thing you are trying to prove to me is that man has no choice in the matter. That despite his best efforts he is only attracted to men. Again, I'm calling bullshit on this. Human beings were given a brain, and have the ability to reason right from wrong.

If you are looking for acceptance from me based on what- 4 % of the world's population is thinking, you are gonna have to do better than what you are stating. Because, as I said, we are who we are based on the choices we make. We gain acceptance through our actions. It's okay, some people just need that bullshit crutch "born" in the wrong body. I don't. I walk out my front door every fucking day dressed like a woman. I'm not on hormones, I don't have to justify who I am to myself or anyone else, and I assume full responsibility of the choices I make.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Maybe you failed to read this:
I didn't state I was trying to validate anything. I stated my opinion. And, it's just that - My opinion.
The whole key to my opinion is "we are who we are based on our choices. If someone can disprove that, I'd be more than happy to listen... Other than that, I stand firmly on my "opinion". I am not generalizing anyone.

When you call somebody else's description of their own experience as "bullshit", yes, you are generalising.

I am a human being, not an animal. I can make my own decisions for me. I don't use bullshit as a fucking crutch. I own up to the choices I made. The way I see it, I'm speaking for myself and my opinion. If I am a skeptic... So be it. All I want is "proof" that nature by design made a mistake.

It's meaningless to talk about nature "making a mistake". Nature doesn't have intent, it doesn't design things for a particular purpose; stuff just happens according to the laws of evolution (which incorporate a BIG helping of chance).

[blockquote]It takes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome to create a man during impregnation.[/blockquote]

One of the funny things about arguments based on "chromosomes" in this sort of context is that nine times out of ten, they're not really scientific arguments at heart.

Once upon a time, this sort of discussion would have been based on religious concepts. Genesis 1:27 says "Male and female God created them", and people took that as an indication that there is a definitive "male" and a definitive "female" and never shall the lines blur.

These days, religion has lost a lot of its clout in some parts of the world, so quoting Genesis isn't the clincher that it used to be. But the ideas got repackaged. Religious folk who wanted to persuade non-believers wrapped the religious concepts in scientific-sounding language. They grabbed onto a superficial, high-school-level understanding of biology that sounded like a good match for their beliefs, and ignored any "actually, it's not that simple..." that might get in the way.

So, in discussions about gender (and also about abortion), "soul" gets replaced by "DNA" because to somebody who knows more theology than science, it seems like an excellent match. Your genome is unique to you, it's the essence of who you are (present and unchanging through every cell of your body, from birth to death), and (when it comes to sex/gender) there are two clearly distinct types - just like a soul!

As a matter of scientific fact, none of those things are actually true about DNA. They're high-school level approximations of the truth. Just a few complications by way of example...

Some people have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome, but appear "female" at birth and are raised as girls. This can happen due to conditions such as androgen insensitivity; kids in this situation often don't realise that there's anything unusual about their bodies until they reach puberty and menstruation doesn't show up.

Others have two X chromosomes, but are born with a penis and testes, because those things are influenced by the SRY gene - which usually lives on the Y chromosome, but occasionally migrates to the X.

Some people have a mix of karyotypes in different cells of their body (chimerism); they might have XX gonads and XY white blood cells. Chimerism seems to be reasonably common, but it's very rarely noticed because you need to do at least two different genetic tests on the same person to detect chimerism.

Yep, most people with XY chromosomes are born with a penis and testes, and grow up to think of themselves as "male"; most with XX are born with a vagina and grow up to think of themselves as "female". But it's not a perfect match.

I probably don't need to say this, but: the idea of "gender" was around for centuries before anybody knew such a thing as "chromosomes" existed. When people look at me and try to figure out whether to pigeonhole me as "man" or "woman" they're not scanning my karyotype. Talking about "chromosomes" is just a more respectable way "were you born with a penis or a vagina" for people who don't understand that this isn't actually quite the same question.

You can't chose your gender, but on a mental level, a person can "choose" who they are attracted to.

Again, this seems like an obvious thing that I shouldn't need to say, but: many gay and trans people have gone to extraordinary lengths to try to "cure" themselves of their attractions/identity. Self-harm, prayer, overcompensation a la Kristin Beck, expensive and ineffective "conversion therapy"... and not uncommonly suicide. Countless people have had their lives ruined when they were outed. Trans women experience horrendous rates of poverty, abuse, and murder.

Why would anybody "choose" that sort of pain? Why would a gay kid kill themselves if they could just "choose" not to be gay?

You are the authority on what it's like to live inside your own head. You are not the authority on what it's like for other people. When somebody tells you they were born in the wrong body and you tell them no, it's just their "choice", the onus of proof is on you. Not them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Gender and sex is two completely different things, and genetics is not as simple as X and Y chromosomes. Anyone who has studied people and their activities for a living, will tell you that gender is a social construct. Full stop. I repeat: gender is a social construct. What one society says it means to be a 'female' or 'male' or, as many many societies have, a combination thereof (see nádleehé, two-spirit, mahu, sworn virgins, khawaja sara, Japanese genderqueer, balka, kathoeys, khanith, mashoga amongst many many others).

Also plenty of examples in the animal kingdom.

 

[NightL]

Kantarii, a person posted of a situation they are experiencing and you have so far responded with "I" 81 times.

Sure, your sig is included in that count also.

 

[DogTrainer]

I love watching the child on here puffed up with her (his) all knowing bravado (or is it fear that compelling this poster, as with so many people who speak over others to disguise themselves?)

I'm completely all for a person who can own their life choices, mistakes and triumphs. But biology is biology, genetics dictate much more than most understand.

I was born heterosexual, I knew I was attracted to the opposite sex since I felt my first crush. This wasn't a conscious decision I made, it's the way my brain is wired.

 

[7LivesManyFaces]

I love watching the child on here puffed up with her (his) all knowing bravado (or is it fear that compelling this poster, as with so many people who speak over others to disguise themselves?)

I'm completely all for a person who can own their life choices, mistakes and triumphs. But biology is biology, genetics dictate much more than most understand.

I was born heterosexual, I knew I was attracted to the opposite sex since I felt my first crush. This wasn't a conscious decision I made, it's the way my brain is wired.

Exactly! I wish there weren't any days when I feel so sad it hurts to live. Obviously I didn't make a conscious decision to feel that way and can't just make myself snap out of it. Wouldn't that be nice?

I don't think anybody on here is trying to change Kanttari's mind, at least not me, that's not my thing, but more to provide perspective and the facts. If they refuse to accept new information and live in oblivion or make their own reality, well that's their choice.

 

[Kantarii]

.....

 

[stickygirl]

Local LGBT centres don't always hot the spot, but it would certainly be worth one visit at least.
Try your local one http://www.derbyshirelgbt.org.uk/ and see how it goes. You are certainly not alone!!

 

[bristolbabcock]

Kantrii, I think your brave sole!

I admire your zeal and how strong you are, I truly do love your post.

 

[Kantarii]

I admire your zeal and how strong you are, I truly do love your post.[/

I think the quote from Malcom X holds true here. A man that stands for nothing will fall for anything. Right or wrong .... I stand for what I believe, because a man gains no respect or acceptance among his peers if he backs down against opposition. I thank you for admiring my zeal. And, I'm glad you love my post