The Left on Political Correctness

[Brollyanna]

There is a vast difference between PC and good manners.



Good manners are considered old-fashioned and passe by the PC police...

I disagree. I think what is often decried as politically correct is actually just good manners. Most opinions and criticisms are most effectively made when they're expressed politely.

And about the PC police.....I bet their batons are huge.

 

[about_average]

I think what is often decried as politically correct is actually just good manners.

^^This

 

[PoppingTom]

^^This

...renders Carson political correct....

 

[about_average]

...renders Carson political correct....

I haven't paid enough attention to him to know if he has good manners or not. Just that he's whack-a-doodle.
Though I wouldn't consider directing an armed robber to someone else as being good manners.

 

[oggbashan]

Dolt.

NAZIs were a direct result of the German experiment in Socialism, Social Justice and Societal Engineering. No one ever spoke up. Everyone went with the flow. Everyone was afraid to be singled out. And, eventually, they came for you, and no one spoke out.

...

No one spoke out?

The first German Concentration Camps were filled with those tens of thousands who had spoken out. Political opponents were arrested and sent to those camps. The camps had to be expanded very quickly because too many people were against the Nazis.

 

[Aella_]

I disagree. I think what is often decried as politically correct is actually just good manners. Most opinions and criticisms are most effectively made when they're expressed politely.

And about the PC police.....I bet their batons are huge.

I agree in principle. But there's also a potentially dangerous side to it.

There was this case, at a place where I worked, where someone made an official complaint against a valued, respectable employee. The complaint was based on some non-PC, benign jokes that the targeted person used to make.
It took a lot of effort and time for us, to clear his name. And the irony lay in the fact that the complainant was the one who'd displayed the dubious behaviors described in the letter of complaint.


Some of my colleagues used to say: if you think that someone is about to write a complaint about you, do it first. The one who complains has the advantage and is taken seriously in this litigious culture.

 

[Brollyanna]

I agree in principle. But there's also a potentially dangerous side to it.

There was this case, at a place where I worked, where someone made an official complaint against a valued, respectable employee. The complaint was based on some non-PC, benign jokes that the targeted person used to make.
It took a lot of effort and time for us, to clear his name. And the irony lay in the fact that the complainant was the one who'd displayed the dubious behaviors described in the letter of complaint.


Some of my colleagues used to say: if you think that someone is about to write a complaint about you, do it first. The one who complains has the advantage and is taken seriously in this litigious culture.

I'm not sure what your story has to do with the pros and cons of political correctness. It seems to have more to do with a dishonest and manipulative person lying to get ahead at work.
He could just as easily have accused the "valued, respectable employee who made some non-PC, benign jokes" of theft or harassment. It sucks to be falsely accused, whatever the charge.

 

[Libsam]

PC is just another religion and white guilt is the original sin.

 

[PoppingTom]

PC is just another religion and white guilt is the original sin.

http://www.stupidedia.org/images/9/94/Blabla_Keks.gif?filetimestamp=20090205183838

Here's a cookie for that dumb sentence.

 

[Libsam]

Oops, you're right. I'll fix it.

PC is just another religion and being Anglo is the original sin.

 

[Aella_]

Oops, you're right. I'll fix it.

PC is just another religion and being Anglo is the original sin.

good one

 

[PoppingTom]

Oops, you're right. I'll fix it.

PC is just another religion and being Anglo is the original sin.

Uhm...well, they're called Anglo-Saxon.

Being Saxon is definitely the original sin.








(OK, that joke is too German.....)

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I'm not sure what your story has to do with the pros and cons of political correctness. It seems to have more to do with a dishonest and manipulative person lying to get ahead at work.
He could just as easily have accused the "valued, respectable employee who made some non-PC, benign jokes" of theft or harassment. It sucks to be falsely accused, whatever the charge.

The difference is that the "harm" of being marginally un-politically correct is trivial compared to the likely punishment of being found "guilty" of the "crime" -- regardless of whether one was or was not unfairly charged. The accusation of theft or harassment is far more serious but the punishments tend to remain quite similar.

As for political correctness simply being good manners, that may be. But what gave anyone the right to think they can "legislate" and compel their personal standard of behavior on others. That is decidedly NOT good manners. It's arrogance.

 

[PoppingTom]

As for political correctness simply being good manners, that may be. But what gave anyone the right to think they can "legislate" and compel their personal standard of behavior on others. That is decidedly NOT good manners. It's arrogance.

No one compels good manners. But everybody respect it.

A few Americans just think they don't need (or deserve) any respect.

I can respect that.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The difference is that the "harm" of being marginally un-politically correct is trivial compared to the likely punishment of being found "guilty" of the "crime" -- regardless of whether one was or was not unfairly charged. The accusation of theft or harassment is far more serious but the punishments tend to remain quite similar.

As for political correctness simply being good manners, that may be. But what gave anyone the right to think they can "legislate" and compel their personal standard of behavior on others. That is decidedly NOT good manners. It's arrogance.

While what is "marginally un-politically correct" is clearly a subjective thing I do agree that the punishments are often disproportionate.

What gave anybody the right to legislate and compel their personal standards on others though. That would be society and since it's very inception though legislate and compel are kinda different things. It's wouldn't be illegal for Rand Paul to show up to the next debate dressed as Darth Vader I presume someone would compel him not to.

 

[Aella_]

Colonel Hogan summed up well what I was trying to say, (I think I was a bit unclear).
I wasn't referring to manners. I was referring to the risk that some people might decide to take upon them to "Police" those around them, and they might often end up nit-picking.

FOR EX.:
In one particular PC environment that I worked in, there were two types of complaints :
those focused on improving the workplace, and those that were done out of malice (personal attacks). I am referring to the latter.

If the complainant couldn't find something at fault with the target's work performance, they'd typically focus on twisting said words or acts of the person who was anything but PC in his/her speech or demeanor. Something in the line of : X bullied someone who was more junior or was rude to Y, X makes sexual advances to those lower in rank, etc. When in fact, it often happened that the complainant was like that.

The complainant simply took advantage of the expectations to be very PC, and of the anxiety of the regulatory bodies- that they might be held responsible. Even if the results of the investigation often exhonerated the target, in the end, the entire process often ended up being quite traumatizing for him/her.

 

[PoppingTom]

Colonel Hogan summed up well what I was trying to say, (I think I was a bit unclear).
I wasn't referring to manners. I was referring to the risk that some people might decide to take upon them to "Police" those around them, and they might often end up nit-picking.

You can be nitpicking all the way you want, and still be very un-p.c.

People who feel a force by others of being p.c. tend to be very intolerant by themselves.



In other words: say whatever you want, girl. We just point out when it's stupid. And no, you don't get respect for being stupid. Never.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Then you mostly have experience working with morons and it's really that simple. See you don't seem to be arguing that a woman has a right to go to work and not have the males call her Juggs instead of her name. Well at least that's what it seems but if you're going to go and claim that PC is bad then women being called Juggs and blacks being called Nigger Boy is 100% in bounds and no action should be taken. That however does not seem to be what your claiming.

What you seem to be claiming is that sometimes people with a grudge will lie and claim that so and so slapped my ass and told me to make him a sandwich when really I'm just a bitch. However if I'm just a bitch and the rules aren't PC I'm still going to to know what the rules actually are and file the same complaint. I'm just going to say that so and so said my mother sucks cocks in hell, or he threatened to beat me up or any other thing that comes to mind. I find vindictive people are generally quite creative.

Now if your argument is about third parties who may step in because of an off color statement or action. . .well that's a murky area that's best left to case by case judgement. I don't know if the shit I was getting in Middle School was because I was black or not (and frankly at the end of the day does it matter if the kids shoving, punching and taking your shit are doing it because your black, small or lack enough friends?) but the truth is I was never ever going to tell anybody of any authority. I was just going to make sure my backpack was a little heavier the next time I used it as a club. So having outside people say "hmmmm this shit might need outsie interference" is not by definition bad. Nor is it good.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

While what is "marginally un-politically correct" is clearly a subjective thing I do agree that the punishments are often disproportionate.

What gave anybody the right to legislate and compel their personal standards on others though. That would be society and since it's very inception though legislate and compel are kinda different things. It's wouldn't be illegal for Rand Paul to show up to the next debate dressed as Darth Vader I presume someone would compel him not to.

The right of society to legislate behavioral restraints in order to preserve social order for the "greater good" is unquestionable. The problem is the word "good." Everyone now seems to believe they have a right to legislate their own definition of good. No political ideology has a monopoly on this presumption. It ranges from "PC is good" to "God is good" and the rest of you racist rednecks/Satanistic heathens will live accordingly if I have anything to say about it.

The standard that we should legislate to is "the greater good consistent with the barest necessity." "That government governs best which governs least."

That formula was never a prescription for anarchy. It was a call for moderation.

 

[Aella_]

You can be nitpicking all the way you want, and still be very un-p.c.

People who feel a force by others of being p.c. tend to be very intolerant by themselves.



In other words: say whatever you want, girl. We just point out when it's stupid. And no, you don't get respect for being stupid. Never.

Indeed. There are bigots in both types of environments. (if I understood you correctly).

I guess I haven't come across many out-there, open h8rs like you guys did in US or Germany, so I wouldn't know first hand how bad it can get.

I'm more attuned to the evils of PC environments. Because, imo the culture is different where I live: people here are much more careful about how they say things, and are less direct when they express themselves. You don't often hear hear the "dummy" or "dumbass" etc. that you often read on Lit.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I agree that good is highly subjective. I agree completely with the first point though what exactly is the barest necessity? I ask because I noticed a post from you the other day where you seemed to think the Westboro Church's attacks on military funerals were over the line. From an emotional standpoint I completely agree but I'm not sure that passes the test for bare necessity. They could cremate their dead and hold a private meeting that nobody would ever know about or any of dozens of other ways to avoid that confrontation. They shouldn't HAVE to. I'm unclear on where precisely the government stepping in becomes a good thing.

 

[PoppingTom]

I can't help the feeling "political correctness" is taken here in a very un-correct way.

To me, it's not about good or evil, good or bad manners. It's simply about truth.



Why don't you all just stop talking? Y'all know the truth, no reason to discuss about it. P.C. or not, people will rather die than change their opinions.

 

[Aella_]

Then you mostly have experience working with morons and it's really that simple. . .
What you seem to be claiming is that sometimes people with a grudge will lie and claim that so and so slapped my ass and told me to make him a sandwich when really I'm just a bitch.

However if I'm just a bitch and the rules aren't PC I'm still going to to know what the rules actually are and file the same complaint. I find vindictive people are generally quite creative.

Exactly

Now if your argument is about third parties who may step in because of an off color statement or action. . .well that's a murky area that's best left to case by case judgement. I don't know if the shit I was getting in Middle School was because I was black or not but the truth is I was never ever going to tell anybody of any authority.

Which was wise. In some cases, the authorities don't care about the "little guy"(metaphor) when he/she complains about an injustice. They only care about themselves and about covering their back. And it sometimes happens that it backfires, and the "little guy" ends up being villified or smeared.

 

[Ishmael]

Exactly


Which was wise. In some cases, the authorities don't care about the "little guy"(metaphor) when he/she complains about an injustice. They only care about themselves and about covering their back. And it sometimes happens that it backfires, and the "little guy" ends up being villified or smeared.

You mean like government whistle blowers and Clinton's rape victims?

Ishmael

 

[Aella_]

You mean like government whistle blowers and Clinton's rape victims?
Ishmael

Now don't put them in the same bucket