That Pipeline

[trysail]

Approve Keystone and Move On


January 12, 2015
By The Editors (Bloomberg)

At this point, Keystone XL has more value as a political issue than as a pipeline. That's why President Barack Obama should just approve it already and put this absurdly politicized issue to rest.

True, the president has said he will veto the current congressional effort to force approval of the pipeline, but his objections seem more bureaucratic than substantive. And last week, the highest court in Nebraska, through which Keystone will run, quietly opened the door to allow him to approve the project through the proper channels.

To reiterate: The pipeline from Alberta, Canada, to the U.S. Gulf Coast is neither a threat to Earth's climate (as its opponents claim) nor a boon to employment (as its proponents argue). The construction is expected to create only about 10,000 temporary jobs; only a few dozen permanent employees will be needed to run the thing once it's built. And the pipeline's actual impact on the environment is minimal.

What's more, with the price of oil hovering around $50 a barrel, the economic rationale for the pipeline is shaky. Nonetheless, the wisdom of allowing TransCanada Corp. to build the pipeline remains as sound as it ever was: In the long term, it can make the U.S. more energy-secure.

...there is the reality that, even if the Keystone pipeline is never built, Canada's oil won't stay in the ground. Even as oil prices have dropped over the past several months, extraction from the Alberta oil sands has continued. And even if $50-a-barrel oil causes some producers to slow production, oil prices will inevitably rise again, making oil-sands extraction economically viable. This crude will get to market via rail and ship -- as it has been -- and possibly via pipelines that are in the works to Canada's east and west coasts.

Keystone will not create many jobs for the U.S., and its delivery of 830,000 barrels a day won't keep the price of gasoline low. But the U.S. still needs to import oil -- and better to get it from Canada than, say, Venezuela. Obama has no good reason not to say yes.​

http://www.bloombergview.com/articl...-yes-to-keystone-xl-pipeline-and-lets-move-on

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[Que]

Approve Keystone and Move On


January 12, 2015
By The Editors (Bloomberg)

At this point, Keystone XL has more value as a political issue than as a pipeline. That's why President Barack Obama should just approve it already and put this absurdly politicized issue to rest.

True, the president has said he will veto the current congressional effort to force approval of the pipeline, but his objections seem more bureaucratic than substantive. And last week, the highest court in Nebraska, through which Keystone will run, quietly opened the door to allow him to approve the project through the proper channels.

To reiterate: The pipeline from Alberta, Canada, to the U.S. Gulf Coast is neither a threat to Earth's climate (as its opponents claim) nor a boon to employment (as its proponents argue). The construction is expected to create only about 10,000 temporary jobs; only a few dozen permanent employees will be needed to run the thing once it's built. And the pipeline's actual impact on the environment is minimal.

What's more, with the price of oil hovering around $50 a barrel, the economic rationale for the pipeline is shaky. Nonetheless, the wisdom of allowing TransCanada Corp. to build the pipeline remains as sound as it ever was: In the long term, it can make the U.S. more energy-secure.

...there is the reality that, even if the Keystone pipeline is never built, Canada's oil won't stay in the ground. Even as oil prices have dropped over the past several months, extraction from the Alberta oil sands has continued. And even if $50-a-barrel oil causes some producers to slow production, oil prices will inevitably rise again, making oil-sands extraction economically viable. This crude will get to market via rail and ship -- as it has been -- and possibly via pipelines that are in the works to Canada's east and west coasts.

Keystone will not create many jobs for the U.S., and its delivery of 830,000 barrels a day won't keep the price of gasoline low. But the U.S. still needs to import oil -- and better to get it from Canada than, say, Venezuela. Obama has no good reason not to say yes.​

http://www.bloombergview.com/articl...-yes-to-keystone-xl-pipeline-and-lets-move-on

​

Well, yeah if you are going to take advice from those right-wing reactionaries over at Bloomberg.

When Bloomberg is telling you to approve it, it is time to stop the pretense that the delay was ever anything but a get-out-the-vote offering to the environmental whackos.

 

[JohnnySavage]

What do we think about TransCanada being exempt from paying into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund?

 

[Curmudgeonly]

All this angst over 35 full-time jobs.

...And 10,000 construction jobs...and $8,000,000,000 added to the US GDP for the construction alone, plus all the refining jobs and the profit for US companies doing the refining....

...But those road jobs...THOSE are permanent.

I would suggest that you actually have a rather high tolerance for derp...given that you absorb and regurgitate so much of it.

 

[Que]

What do we think about TransCanada being exempt from paying into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund?

Are Canadians on the hook now if the oil being transported in rail-cars from Canada as we speak results in a spill?

They may not have to pay into a government managed fund, but if they spill they will have to pay for the clean-up.

 

[Que]

...And 10,000 construction jobs...and $8,000,000,000 added to the US GDP for the construction alone, plus all the refining jobs and the profit for US companies doing the refining....

...But those road jobs...THOSE are permanent.

I would suggest that you actually have a rather high tolerance for derp...given that you absorb and regurgitate so much of it.

Don't expect BobsDownSouth to come back and defend his derp. He leaves piles of it around and when anyone takes the time to bother to refudiate it he slinks away to attack another day.

Kind of funny that the self proclaimed "most deserving" poster on the Genral Board did not even get nominated for the Hall of Fame that he watched with such eager anticipation the first few rounds.

#StillSmarts
#TertiaryPoster

:nods:

 

[thør]

This does not make me happy.

 

[Lancecastor]

Yes, Canada should refine its own tar.

That way, when the pipeline breaks in the USA, it'll be a bigger mess.

What is the argument against it?
Why does it go all the way to the Gulf?
Why doesn't Canada build a refinery nearer the source?
Why can't it go to Illinois where there is already excess refining capacity?


Addendum: iMan said one of my posts was 'hogwash' and his words are hurtful.

 

[neci]

This does not make me happy.

"Just give us one more pipeline. I promise I won't piss away the money this time."

 

[thør]

"Just give us one more pipeline. I promise I won't piss away the money this time."

I can get you that bumper sticker.

I'm more worried about train wrecks than pipeline leaks.

 

[neci]

I can get you that bumper sticker.

I'm more worried about train wrecks than pipeline leaks.

that's a pretty awesome bumper sticker.

ships, trains and pipelines, all in the name of black gold.

they will destroy the environment, if you don't keep a close eye on them.

 

[Shagly]

What do we think about TransCanada being exempt from paying into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund?

The oil will be shipped from the refinery to China on tankers.

They that pay the most wins, except for environmental spills.

 

[JohnnySavage]

The oil will be shipped from the refinery to China on tankers.

They that pay the most wins, except for environmental spills.

That first sentence makes no sense. Maybe you just don't know what a refinery does.

 

[Ishmael]

What is the argument against it?
Why does it go all the way to the Gulf?
Why doesn't Canada build a refinery nearer the source?
Why can't it go to Illinois where there is already excess refining capacity?


Addendum: iMan said one of my posts was 'hogwash' and his words are hurtful.

The arguments against it are spurious hogwash. Mostly eco-freaks who don't have a clue. That oil is currently being carried by rail, the second most dangerous way to transport petroleum. (Truck is the worst, rail second, ship third, and pipeline the safest.)

It goes to the gulf because that is where the refineries are that can handle that type of crude.

Because the eco-freaks in Canada are as bad as ours. They aren't going to allow any new refinery to be built. Further that refinery would have to be built in BC so as to have port access. That would mean piping it across the Canadian Rockies.

See answer #2, while there are large refining facilities in IL and IN., they are not equipped to handle that sort of crude. And the eco-freaks won't tolerate the expansions required to handle that oil.

Ishmael

 

[Shagly]

That first sentence makes no sense. Maybe you just don't know what a refinery does.

The refinery breaks the crude oil down to various Hydrocarbons cleaned and ready for various useage.

 

[trysail]

I'm not going to read every page of this thread, just caught the latest addition.

First thing.
You are all assuming that "OIL" is a homogenous commodity, like water. It's not. I can think of at least 26 different grades of crude, and each and every refinery is optimized to take a certain blend or cocktail. That blend may be 3 parts heavy sour, 1 part medium sweet, and 1 part light sweet. It may be something completely different. The point being, that if you put in a different blend, the refinery operates at sub-optimal capacity. You may get more light distillates, and less of the heavy stuff, and vice versa. As a corporation, if your multi billion dollar asset is not operating efficiently, you might as well light money on fire. The reason why XL is being routed to the Gulf Coast is because refineries along the Gulf Coast are optimized to process heavy and sour crudes, which they have historically received from places like Venezuela.

Refineries along the East and West Coasts of North America have traditionally cooked imported, lighter, sweeter, crudes. They don't operate well at all on the heavy shit. This really wasn't a problem price wise until a few years ago, as they could buy it at a price cheaper (Brent) than West Texas Intermediate, the benchmark for the New York Mercantile crude contract. Brent is the benchmark for the rest of the world. It became a big problem once demand in emerging markets (China, India, etc) started to ramp up. These emerging markets started buying up the cheap Brent crude, but production did not ramp up to keep pace. Suddenly, Brent started trading at a premium to WTI, and all the refineries along the coasts became non-competitive and economic black holes. Several have been sold.

So essentially, you people on the coasts had it pretty good until that happened. Now the worm has turned. Life sucks, doesn't it?

Second thing.
You all are trained to think, just pipe it wherever it needs to go...make it happen. It doesn't work that way either. There are a limited number of pipelines, they typically run North/South, and they're at capacity. It was cheaper to import foreign oil by ship to supply coastal refineries, rather than pay for pipelines running from the interior of the continent, so none got built. NOBODY wants a brand spanking new pipeline running through their backyard these days, do they? So a lot of crude is being brought down and over by rail.

Funny thing that Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway own the BNSF Railroad...he's a big Obama supporter, and XL got hung up along the way. Coincidence?

Lastly, statistically there is zero doubt that moving crude by pipeline is the SAFEST method. It is not even close. So think of that every time you post a link to a leaky Enbridge, Kinder Morgan, or TransCanada pipe story.

Third thing.
The Canadians were muy pissed off by Obama's little exercise. They would really like to sell their crude to America, but if America doesn't want it, the Chinese are perfectly willing to pay for it, and help subsidize the pipeline needed to get it to the Pacific coast. They'll even pay a higher price than America will. Either way, that shit is going to get produced. So your pollution numbers will be the same either way. Probably worse, as the Chinese do not have as stringent environmental regulations as the U.S. does.

That being said, Northern Gateway, and the proposed capacity increase for TransMountain are not slam dunks. The terrain is brutal, and B.C. and the First Nations are putting up a fight, aka, holding their hands out for some money.

☝​

★★★★★

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Mein Gott! It's a frickin' miracle. There's actually somebody around here who understands what's going on.





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[trysail]

Fiery Oil-Train Crash Probed by U.S. Rail, Pipeline Regulators

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...d-in-w-virginia-counties-after-csx-derailment

(Bloomberg) -- U.S. regulators joined the investigation into a fiery CSX Corp. oil-train derailment in West Virginia that forced residents to flee their homes in frigid weather and threatened drinking water.

The crash, the second in 10 months involving a CSX train laden with Bakken oil, promises to add to the public-safety debate over North American crude-by-rail shipments. The Obama administration is revising standards after a series of oil-train derailments led by a 2013 Quebec accident that killed 47 people and non-fatal explosions in the U.S.

Sarah Feinberg, acting administrator of the Federal Railroad Administration, and Chief Safety Officer Robert Lauby were traveling to the crash site, and investigators from the Pipeline Hazardous Materials Safety Administration were already on the scene, according to the FRA.

As firefighters worked Tuesday to douse the remaining flames following Monday’s derailment, authorities’ focus turned to learning why the train came off the tracks and whether the cargo of North Dakota Bakken crude had reached a municipal water intake on the Kanawha River.

Ice dams may have kept the crude from reaching a local water system, and authorities are testing samples to be sure the spill was contained, said Terrance Lively, a spokesman for the West Virginia Department of Military Affairs and Public Safety in Charleston.

Oil, Water

“We do know there is some crude oil in the stream,” Lively said Tuesday by telephone.

Gary Sease, a CSX spokesman, didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment Tuesday about track conditions and the train’s speed at the time of the accident, which occurred after 1 p.m. on Monday.

The rural nature of the crash site may have limited the fallout from having 27 oil cars derail and as many 15 of them catch fire. Even with power lines damaged, the possible jeopardy to the water system and Governor Earl Ray Tomblin declaring a state of emergency covering Kanawha and Fayette counties, only about 85 people had to use local shelters, Lively said.

CSX is cooperating with federal authorities, Sease said by e-mail. The train -- with 107 oil cars, two cars of sand and a pair of locomotives -- was headed for Yorktown, Virginia, according to Sease.

The destination was a rail-to-marine terminal operated by Plains All American Pipeline LP, according to New York-based ClipperData, which tracks waterborne crude movements. A Plains All American spokesman, Brad Leone, didn’t immediately respond to a voice message and e-mail left before regular business hours Tuesday.

Lynchburg Incident

The April 2014 crude-train derailment in Lynchburg, Virginia, also involved a CSX train headed to the Plains All American facility. About 15 cars came off the tracks, and the resulting fire led to dramatic video of flames and billowing smoke against the backdrop of a small city’s downtown.

The tank units on the West Virginia train were CPC-1232 rail cars made with either 7/16-inch (1.1-centimeter) carbon steel shells and 1/8-inch carbon steel jackets, or cars with 1/2-inch carbon steel shells, according to an e-mail from Sease.

The new U.S. standards for trains carrying crude would first require companies to upgrade tank cars known as DOT-111s, which safety investigators have said are prone to puncture in rail accidents, a person familiar with the proposal said this month.

Draft Rule

The draft rule also would require that new cars be built with steel shells that are 9/16th of an inch thick, people familiar with the plan said. The walls of the current cars, both DOT-111s and the newer CPC-1232 models, are 7/16th of an inch thick.

Monday’s derailment was the second in three days in North America. Canadian National Railway Co. shut its main line linking western and eastern Canada after an eastbound train carrying crude oil came off the tracks in Ontario.

The train of 100 cars, all carrying crude from Canada’s oil-producing region of Alberta to eastern Canada, derailed just before midnight Saturday in a remote and wooded area about 30 miles (48 kilometers) north of Gogama, Ontario, spokesman Patrick Waldron said in an e-mail.

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[JohnQuintell]

Something I know.

As for me, I would worry that during this the era of bad hacking it could easily suffer A simple program attack, or glitch and become a huge bomb.
If you want to understand that in those regards read the cracked artical about huge catastrophes due to little program errors.
Back then the Russians were stealing programs from the U.S.
So we sorta gave them bad data, and then it caused there pipe line exploded like a shit load of TNT.
So basically the pipe line is the det cord, and its laying across half our nation.

Yay...

 

[IrezumiKiss]

As for me, I would worry that during this the era of bad hacking it could easily suffer A simple program attack, or glitch and become a huge bomb.
If you want to understand that in those regards read the cracked artical about huge catastrophes due to little program errors.
Back then the Russians were stealing programs from the U.S.
So we sorta gave them bad data, and then it caused there pipe line exploded like a shit load of TNT.
So basically the pipe line is the det cord, and its laying across half our nation.

Yay...

☝​

★★★★★

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Mein Gott! It's a frickin' miracle. There's actually somebody ELSE around here who understands what's going on.





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[Ishmael]

As for me, I would worry that during this the era of bad hacking it could easily suffer A simple program attack, or glitch and become a huge bomb.
If you want to understand that in those regards read the cracked artical about huge catastrophes due to little program errors.
Back then the Russians were stealing programs from the U.S.
So we sorta gave them bad data, and then it caused there pipe line exploded like a shit load of TNT.
So basically the pipe line is the det cord, and its laying across half our nation.

Yay...

Obviously you don't know shit about modern pipeline design or operations. Just what the nation needs, more ignorance.

Ishmael

 

[cowslinger64]

Obviously you don't know shit about modern pipeline design or operations. Just what the nation needs, more ignorance.

Ishmael

http://www.pipelineandgasjournal.com/homeland-security-investigates-cyber-attacks-gas-pipelines

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...-natural-gas-pipelines-vulnerable-to-sabotage

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-08-turkey-pipeline-blast-opened-new-cyberwar

 

[trysail]

Even the economic buffoons at the witless Washington Post say:

...Mr. Obama should ignore the activists who have bizarrely chosen to make Keystone XL a line-in-the-sand issue...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...6f709c-5b77-11e2-beee-6e38f5215402_story.html

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[IrezumiKiss]

Obviously you don't know shit about modern pipeline design or operations. Just what the nation needs, more ignorance.

Ishmael

http://www.pipelineandgasjournal.com/homeland-security-investigates-cyber-attacks-gas-pipelines

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...-natural-gas-pipelines-vulnerable-to-sabotage

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-08-turkey-pipeline-blast-opened-new-cyberwar

http://www.crushable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Game-of-Thrones-1.gif

http://grizzlybomb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/slap2.gif

 

[richard_daily]

...And 10,000 construction jobs...and $8,000,000,000 added to the US GDP for the construction alone, plus all the refining jobs and the profit for US companies doing the refining....

...But those road jobs...THOSE are permanent.

I would suggest that you actually have a rather high tolerance for derp...given that you absorb and regurgitate so much of it.

So you're saying that the federal government CAN create jobs... good to know.

 

[Ishmael]

Even the economic buffoons at the witless Washington Post say:





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The Democrat party has increasingly become the party of the lunatic fringe. As the costs associated with all of the "free" shit they demand, along with the damage to the economy for all of the jobs that won't be created begins to sink in I would expect to see more and more defections.

re. the post about hacking, bombing, etc. All are possible threats. But the terrorists aren't stupid and are looking for damages that involve bloodshed and have some symbolic value. Yesterday's accident in WV should be a graphic example of the vulnerability of rail transport. It's a hell of a lot easier to derail a train than it is to blow up a pipeline. It takes a lot less explosive and doing the deed in a suburban area should involve a decent body count along with the associated environmental damage and symbolic value.

Further, if you can hack a pipeline control system you can hack the control systems for any of the major rail carriers. A major incident in a populated area because a switch was remotely thrown at just the wrong time gets the job done nicely as well.

Blowing up a section of pipeline in a remote area only destroys the oil in that section of the pipeline. Further, burning is exactly what you want it to do from an environmental stand point. The more that burns, the less soil remediation required. (That's how petroleum polluted soil is re-mediated. It's burned in an asphalt kiln. The hydrocarbons are burned off and the soil is carted back from whence it came.)

Ishmael