The Queernesss Thread

[KoPilot]

So I read this book a couple weeks ago called "Denial: My 25 Years Without A Soul", which is about the author coming to terms with being gay and how he went so long without it even really occurring to him that he was gay.

I read it in a single sitting, found myself almost in tears at some parts, and being able to identify with almost the entirety of it.

Here is some excerpts from HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-rauch/jonathan-rauch-copyedited_b_3073242.html

I found out about it through an interview done with the author, and the interviewer said he was able to identify with a lot of it as an ex-alcoholic. For me, pretty much all of my closeted identities have been able to go "YES THIS".

 

[Allyourbase]

Not wanting this thread to die and I did want to respond earlier. As far as health care, assuming it's available, goes it's always up to the individual to be honest. Not only honest but to be demanding of the needed information. Most medical professionals just aren't going to ask about our sexual practices, they should, they don't.

It's no different for straights, I just hate that term, if you don't ask, doctors just don't give information.

I keep all kinds of information, I never know when I'll want to write something. Women's health is an issue I've written about before, maybe I should write some articles about women not being honest with their doctors but it's been done before.

I Lied To My Gynecologist

Hey, don't get me wrong, obviously I agree with you here. It is important to be honest, or honest enough, with your health providor. But you are talking about possible causes, not effects. The effect of being invisible and closeted is that you're discriminated against, even though it might be unintentional - you don't exist in people's heads and therefore don't get adequate information. That this is because bi people have decided to stay in the closet, is something else.

I always wonder how to 'solve' chicken-egg dilemma's like these. Do we say: bi people, make yourselves visible, so the attitude towards you might change! Or: people, change your attitude towards bi's, so bi people might have the courage to come out! I dunno.

That is an interesting article on the self-slut-shaming thing. Thanks for that. Though I do not think it's entirely the same for straights, because if someone tells you how to have safe sex with one penis-having-guy, you can kinda extrapolate from there, right?

 

[Allyourbase]

So I read this book a couple weeks ago called "Denial: My 25 Years Without A Soul", which is about the author coming to terms with being gay and how he went so long without it even really occurring to him that he was gay.

I read it in a single sitting, found myself almost in tears at some parts, and being able to identify with almost the entirety of it.

Here is some excerpts from HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-rauch/jonathan-rauch-copyedited_b_3073242.html

I found out about it through an interview done with the author, and the interviewer said he was able to identify with a lot of it as an ex-alcoholic. For me, pretty much all of my closeted identities have been able to go "YES THIS".

Oh...

"... the bellowing caprice and excruciating boringness of grown-ups, who are useful but never interesting."

Wow, that totally is how grown-ups are for a kid - for me anyways.

I can relate not just on parts of the identity stuff, but I have a weird other thing that feels eerily similar. I had a major physical issue that I've been in denial for up until I was 33. I needed surgery, but not even my partner of 15 years knew. Because I conveniently 'forgot' I had it myself. My mom did something similar. In both our cases doctors didn't understand why we didn't visit them earlier. Because, up until it was just so uncomfortable we had to ackowledge it, mostly it just wasn't there for us, even though it was. Which is insane.

And I've always wondered how people DO that, how I have done that?!

Honestly, that physical thing didn't feel much different from how I've been oblivious of how my kink was always there, even though looking back I know it was, totally, undeniably, all the time. Gender, kinda the same, though I'm still in the middle of the mess right now.

I keep wondering what else in my body or mind will pop up that will feel totally mindbogglingly present, like it's always been there, but I never saw it.

 

[Netzach]

Hey, don't get me wrong, obviously I agree with you here. It is important to be honest, or honest enough, with your health providor. But you are talking about possible causes, not effects. The effect of being invisible and closeted is that you're discriminated against, even though it might be unintentional - you don't exist in people's heads and therefore don't get adequate information. That this is because bi people have decided to stay in the closet, is something else.

I always wonder how to 'solve' chicken-egg dilemma's like these. Do we say: bi people, make yourselves visible, so the attitude towards you might change! Or: people, change your attitude towards bi's, so bi people might have the courage to come out! I dunno.

That is an interesting article on the self-slut-shaming thing. Thanks for that. Though I do not think it's entirely the same for straights, because if someone tells you how to have safe sex with one penis-having-guy, you can kinda extrapolate from there, right?

Bisexuals come in more than one gender, and the lack of men-who-have-sex-with-men education that effectively reaches bisexual people is DISMAL and a stain on this culture. We're going to have to really start seeing human sexuality in its primary OVERWHELMING shade of gray when we talk about health, and the fact that we don't is killing people and continues to kill people.

It's going to require something more radical than accepting that bisexuality exists, it's going to require realizing that very few straight people are completely straight.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's going to require something more radical than accepting that bisexuality exists, it's going to require realizing that very few straight people are completely straight.

yes.

Homophobia happens, mostly, in gray-area men who have to deny that twinge of satanic/disgusting/emasculating same sex attraction.

People who are genuinely monosexual, (and who have not been influenced, for whatever reason, to the cultural breeding ground of hatred) tend to not be threatened by which ever orientation it is that they don't share. They just don't get it. It's meaningless.

 

[Netzach]

They're guys. They're sucking and fucking like rabbits. 'Phobic stereotype perhaps, but the stats shore it up. And when they come home and bang the wife, she's banging the whole adult bookstore by proxy.

Like it hate it rail on it, but we need to admit it and deal with it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

They're guys. They're sucking and fucking like rabbits. 'Phobic stereotype perhaps, but the stats shore it up. And when they come home and bang the wife, she's banging the whole adult bookstore by proxy.

Like it hate it rail on it, but we need to admit it and deal with it.

Hey, I got no problem with any of that. I just want there to be more women rabbits. And maybe more men who read the books.

 

[BrightlyGo]

They're guys. They're sucking and fucking like rabbits. 'Phobic stereotype perhaps, but the stats shore it up. And when they come home and bang the wife, she's banging the whole adult bookstore by proxy.

Like it hate it rail on it, but we need to admit it and deal with it.

i'm not sure i'm following this.

Which 'phobia? (Homophobia was the last one someone mentioned. Or 'biphobia?)'

What stats?

Infidelity (as opposed to open or poly relationships) is pretty awful, but all sorts of committed couples deal with it, and it's not always the guy that's cheating.

Are we still on the MSMW health issue, and did you mean to imply that it's only an issue because of the W?

 

[Netzach]

i'm not sure i'm following this.

Which 'phobia? (Homophobia was the last one someone mentioned. Or 'biphobia?)'

What stats?

Infidelity (as opposed to open or poly relationships) is pretty awful, but all sorts of committed couples deal with it, and it's not always the guy that's cheating.

Are we still on the MSMW health issue, and did you mean to imply that it's only an issue because of the W?

Homophobia - the trope of the promiscuous dude who does dudes. It's both an unfair stereotype and a measured truth.

Plenty - CDC, every study - self report, conversations with hundreds of men who do men, you name it. Men doing casual sex with other men do it often and with lots of partners and pretty crap ass safe sex habits.

Of course it's not ONLY an issue because of the W, but they tend to get the downside of the deal and none of the upside. Pointing out the risk to the W's points out that our denial of male fluidity becomes everyone's huge ass problem.

Infidelity isn't awful, in my opinion. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but that's beside the point. Infidelity is a fact. I'd go so far as to say it's a norm, in all likelihood.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Thanks for the clarification, Netzach, i'm glad i asked instead of replying to what i thought you'd said.

Infidelity isn't awful, in my opinion. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but that's beside the point. Infidelity is a fact. I'd go so far as to say it's a norm, in all likelihood.

That seems sad, to me, but i guess it could as easily be said that the 'problem' is not 'infidelity,' but whatever is making so many people who don't want exclusive relationships sign up for them... :shrug: Like you say, not really the point.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Apology to graceanne

Hey, I have a question. I PM'd etoile on facebook, but she's not on regularly, and my question is sort of time sensitive.

I'm the fund raiser coordinator for my daughters cheer club. We want to do a father/daughter dance this year, and we're trying to figure out how to phrase the flier so as to make it clear that this isn't just for male fathers, that female fathers are welcome, too. We really don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. However, none of us are entirely sure how to word that. Help, anyone?

I need to apologize to you for my earlier responses to your question. Instead of seeing how positive a step you were taking and that your heart was in the right place, I only saw two words which I felt were objectionable. Trying to reverse places with you I'm not sure I'd have worded your question any differently.

I am truly sorry for how I've acted. I've thought much about this and I know I should have apologize earlier. Now I'm even more confused about how you should phrase your flier because I really do believe daughters need their fathers involved in their life and I'm afraid some fathers would opt out if it's worded parent/daughter. Also I had to share my father with my sister at similar functions and it would have been special if it had been just him and me. I lost my father early in my life, not from death but from his rejection of me and maybe if we'd have had a better relationship he could have understood.

I don't think if we were parents involved in your cheer club we'd attend, what we would do, if it was allowed, is have Jessie's brother do the honor of attending with them. We may be a two mommy family but we'll never underestimate our daughters need to have good loving men as a part of their childhood and our daughters do have a wonderful uncle.

Maybe the best solution is to still call it a father/daughter dance while including lesbian/daughter and single mother/daughter relationships also, with a note that if such couples elect they can have a man of their choice attend with their daughter.

graceanne I hope you can forgive me for being such a horse's ass.

 

[Etoile]

I PM'd etoile on facebook, but she's not on regularly, and my question is sort of time sensitive.

Oh dear, I am sorry! You did send me that, and I didn't answer right away, and it got away from me. I'm sorry!

 

[Allyourbase]

BUMP

Hi peeps!

Here, gotta share some things.

First a mixed pleasure thingie:

In our tiny little village, there's this shop that sells basically everything, toys, sewing materials, stamps, pots and pans, and magazines. My guy and I walked in there just to browse a bit, and I was so suprised when I took a closer look at the magazine rack. Our country's leading feminist magazine was in there, but what more: they sold a magazine for women who like women. What? We both were pleasantly surpsrised. Apparently some lesbian inhabitants here are fully accepted. I feel at home.

The sucky part is the internalized biphobia that kicked in when I wondered whether I could buy that mag. Obviously NOT... especially not with him standing next to me, it would embarrass him to no end. Nor would I probably dare to do that alone. People might think I'm failing him, blablablah.

And here's a happy thing.

A while ago I posted this:

I was at an STD-clinic for a test, in Amsterdam of all places, but the girl there was totally oblivious, I bet she was new. She was so surprised when told her who my partner was, and she couldn't wrap her head around what he was doing with me. 'Not that you look bad or anything!' Sure, gee, thanks. 'But he's really straight?' Yes, yes he is...

Extra bonus stuff: I was there because at that point we'd opened up, and on my end that meant I was having hawt D/s-fueled gay seckxs with a bisexual trans man. Her confusion knew no end. And I even left out the whole kink thing altogether.

I should've just hit on her while she took my pap smear. With those sexy gloves. Just to mess some more with whatever it was she was thinking.

No, really, when I stood outside, I felt pretty dirty. Not std-test dirty, but undesireable for my partner dirty.

My trans partner at the time had been at that clinic as well for a test. What happened to him was far more offensive than what had happened to me. Coincidentally, we've both been tested by the same clueless girl! Recently he decided to file a complaint. On my own, I probably wouldn't have dared to write the clinic, but he got invited to talk about it, and to support him, I shared my story with the clinic too, indicating I didn't need to be invited as well.

And I love saying this:

The team leader was very upset this had happened, because they train their employers to specifically not be like this. As it happened, he's a gay guy who had a bad experience as a young boy getting tested, and when he got out of medical school and started working there, he tried really hard to make everyone stop shoving their morals down their clients' throats.

The talk was constructive. They discussed whether or not it was possible to get a workaround for the m/f dichotomy in their digital systems, and where to get more information to specifically train their employees on trans and genderqueer issues. They even discussed my letter, (referring to me in appropriate pronouns on top of that).

I spoke to the boy right afterwards, and he was feeling great. He felt the guy really listened to him, and was happy with how they handled it. And so am I.

This, people, is how you deal with complaints. *thumbs up*


How're y'all doin'?

 

[KoPilot]

I'm doing... ok!

I got a new binder in the mail this past weekend, from Les Love Boat, and wow it makes me want to huck my T Kingdom one (or give it to someone desperate). I never thought I would get this flat. Non-stretchy fabric panels. They do wonders.

The not-so-ok part is me realizing that this fetish thing I have is less than fun and games all the time. And that when I forget to take my pills and get to have a libido for a bit, it's an endorphin-fueled rabbit hole that I love and fucking hate like nothing else. I obsess over and crave things that I am never going to get. The only thing that brings me out of it is waiting for the birth control to kick back in and nip the sex drive in the bud, or wait for the frustration, dysphoria, and self-loathing to settle in. Nothing kills a ladyboner like complete and utter hopelessness.

argargargarg.

 

[Allyourbase]

I'm doing... ok!

I got a new binder in the mail this past weekend, from Les Love Boat, and wow it makes me want to huck my T Kingdom one (or give it to someone desperate). I never thought I would get this flat. Non-stretchy fabric panels. They do wonders.

The not-so-ok part is me realizing that this fetish thing I have is less than fun and games all the time. And that when I forget to take my pills and get to have a libido for a bit, it's an endorphin-fueled rabbit hole that I love and fucking hate like nothing else. I obsess over and crave things that I am never going to get. The only thing that brings me out of it is waiting for the birth control to kick back in and nip the sex drive in the bud, or wait for the frustration, dysphoria, and self-loathing to settle in. Nothing kills a ladyboner like complete and utter hopelessness.

argargargarg.

Oh boy, I feel for you. You do have a pretty harsh version of 'you can't always get what you want' thrown at you by life.

Good to hear about the binder though! What's it like when wearing it for a day?


In other news:

Me and my ex roomie neighbour are invited to a friend's wedding. I'm invited to the guy's bachelor party as well, but the wedding day is very traditional. And we've been asked to practice a dance for a flashmob. So, we both hate this kind of thing, but o.k.. We're watching the instruction video, and it turns out there's a guy part and a girl part of the dance.

So I cringe, and I say: Shit. Nice. So what am I supposed to do?

He says: Just do whatever you feel comfortable with.

I explain the usual: There is no comfortable option. If I go on the boy's side, guests will wonder what is up with me. On the girl's side, in my suit and tie, feels really off to me. Both options? Not very comfortable. I wish they'd just made one dance, would've been easier.

He's silent for a moment, and then says: O.k., I think I'm starting to get what you mean.

Exactly.

Small things. They can be eye openers.

The third option is: I sure hope I feel like wearing a dress that day. (Or I might just be on the toilet during the flash mob. )

 

[KoPilot]

Oh boy, I feel for you. You do have a pretty harsh version of 'you can't always get what you want' thrown at you by life.

I'm back to normal now (meds kicked in, hur), but I think this time we established that if I can't stop asking him to indulge me, even when he doesn't want to, that he needs to see me as an addict going through withdrawals and keep saying no, I'm not going to give you more drugs, no matter what. I was talking to him all throughout my 2 days of being in a crazed, foggy stupor, and we both came to the conclusion that in the days leading up to the crash, I do become addicted to something in my brain, which is then removed or its levels way lowered, and I react... badly.

The self-loathing and wishing to be someone else is real, though, and I need to figure out a way to make that stop. I hate the shit out of myself when I crave and can't get because it's an awful, gnawing, empty feeling.

It should come as no surprise that I have no interest in going on T and want to make sure I can continue taking something that kills my libido after surgery (if the surgery itself doesn't do that?).

Good to hear about the binder though! What's it like when wearing it for a day?

It feels great, but at the end of the day my ribs/chest start getting tired and I get a little claustrophobic.

He's silent for a moment, and then says: O.k., I think I'm starting to get what you mean.

Exactly.

Small things. They can be eye openers.

The third option is: I sure hope I feel like wearing a dress that day. (Or I might just be on the toilet during the flash mob. )

Cool! And man, I would love to do a flashmob *A*

 

[satindesire]

So, I'll try and keep this brief. Can someone give a poor girl a hand here? I really could use it.

I'm trying to educate myself on how to be an Ally and support the LGBT community. I've been doing a metric shit ton of research and reading but I'm not at the point in my journey yet that I can comfortably and eloquently turn a phrase to explain some difficult topics to talk about.

The topic in question is: How can I explain to a straight person that using the word "Queer" as a "joking insult" is bad and that they, as a straight person, saying that they SHOULD be able to use the word "Since they do" and not getting to is "hypocritical", I want to be able to explain to them briefly and -as kindly as possible- so that they don't shut down and become defensive and refuse to listen to me.

I know that the word originated as a slur and is being co-opted by the community in order to take back some small piece of power back from the privileged. But I don't think that adequately explains the WHY at all.

 

[BrightlyGo]

The 'N-word' should make a fine analogy that'd get the point across.

Really, for any given person, there is probably something they'd rather not be called by most people, that they would be fine with in some context among others whom it could also be applied to. One on one, you could probably find that word.

Geek and nerd started off being strictly insulting, and could still be used that way, for instance.

 

[KoPilot]

Paging Dr. Stella, you're needed in the queerness thread.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Paging Dr. Stella, you're needed in the queerness thread.

Heh. You know what? I don't even know!

I figure if someone hasn't heard the arguments yet, it's because they've gone to great lengths to not hear them. If they have heard them and have ignored them, then there's your answer. They don't care, or they don't want to have to care. There's only room for one person in their lives-- themselves.

I've about given up. I've hit the "Fuuuuck Youuuuu" phase, I guess.

 

[satindesire]

The 'N-word' should make a fine analogy that'd get the point across.

Really, for any given person, there is probably something they'd rather not be called by most people, that they would be fine with in some context among others whom it could also be applied to. One on one, you could probably find that word.

Geek and nerd started off being strictly insulting, and could still be used that way, for instance.

I used the N-word anaolgy, and I think it worked. I just don't understand how people DON'T REALIZE that words like Slut, Queer, are Nigger are basically the same sort of slur, came from the same kind of hate and produced the same results. I grew up around racist people that would say the most disgusting things...I don't even talk to 95% of my family anymore just because those sorts of words were slung around like it didn't matter. I look back and wonder how someone could say the things I was told -to a child-.

Well that's another day. Anyway, thanks for your support.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I really don't have an answer, I truely wish I did. Unlike Stella I'm not yet to the point of fuck off.

I'm not religious but my wife is, this is what she'd say "I know God is going to judge me by how I love, I pray God doesn't judge you by how you hate".

You might also point out we all fall in love, we all want a life with someone whom we love and it's the SAME LOVE.

I want you to know I am so very grateful for your support.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I used the N-word anaolgy, and I think it worked. I just don't understand how people DON'T REALIZE that words like Slut, Queer, are Nigger are basically the same sort of slur, came from the same kind of hate and produced the same results. I grew up around racist people that would say the most disgusting things...I don't even talk to 95% of my family anymore just because those sorts of words were slung around like it didn't matter. I look back and wonder how someone could say the things I was told -to a child-.

Well that's another day. Anyway, thanks for your support.

Thanks for making the effort.

 

[KoPilot]

Well, submissions for Smut Peddler are open. I'm looking into submitting, but they've got some really strict rules about needing the involvement of a woman for every piece.

Sent them an email about it, let's see if genderqueers are allowed to play.

 

[Stella_Omega]

KP, that's the thing about being gender queer-- you can say "AFAB" and they have to let you in.
Fair is fair, after all. If you've been saddled with all the negatives of your assigned sex, you have every right to enjoy whatever positives might come along.