The Queernesss Thread

[Stella_Omega]

Just to be clear, i'm not groping about for an identity to 'find myself' or anything (though i am certainly going through some sort of mid-life crisis at the moment) - i know what i am, i just don't find a label that describes it succinctly. 'Bi-curious' for instance, really implies wanting to experiment and explore your own sexuality - i'm not unsure of my own sexuality, just unsure of how to label it for others' understanding.

Thing about labels, the way to make them accurately reflect your nature is to have more of them-- modifiers.

Colour me one of the "rare" straight-but-heteroflexible guys that love a woman not afraid to get dirty & hands on.
To me a woman in worn jeans & wife beater loading plywood in the back of a van in a Home Depot parking lot is so much hotter than the sexiest lingerie displayed on a 1000 thread count cotton sheets on a four poster bed.

At a point in my life I even spent more time than was healthy hanging around very out lesbians looking to lick the odd crumb that was dropped on my table (which is a topic for another thread, but very few lesbians have had zero hetero encounters).

I didn't and still don't know why women shouldn't embrace their masculine side while still feeling like a woman. But most that do look for sissy men, which I am not and can never be for longer than an evening.

I am a true Switch Alpha, and don't know why it's so hard to find an Alpha female that not only craves to have a man restrained doing her bidding, but one that can match her physically and have her enjoying being bested...and the occasional bruise on both of us.

Interesting observations, porkwarrior. One thing you should know is that thousands of women do embrace their masculine side and identify as female. They are called; "butch." or "tomboy," the hetero variant, I guess?

AS far as why few women want to wrassle with a man and enjoy being bested is because it's not any sort of novelty for most of us. If it were actually a question of matching her pysically-- but most men can easily overpower most women. To pretend otherwise, or to wonder why alpha women tend to avoid that scenario is disingenuous at the very least.

This bit struck me:

"Primary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual because it'll feel good.
Secondary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual to express love or to enjoy the other person's sexual pleasure."

Last thing i expected was sex-to-express-love as "secondary."

In the particular section of the population that is having that conversation. I know that the mainstream promotes that sex should almost always follow after properly falling in love. but these people were notnot mainstream-- and they were not talking 101 there.

"You don't have to experience platonic attraction to enjoy having friends"

What if you don't much enjoy having friends?

Then you don't. But you are not asexual anyway, are you?

 

[BrightlyGo]

Interesting observations, porkwarrior. One thing you should know is that thousands of women do embrace their masculine side and identify as female. They are called; "butch." or "tomboy," the hetero variant, I guess?

i have to disagree with his observation that such women are in the market for 'sissy' men in any sense. 'Butch' girls or tomboys are interested in at-least-as-masculine guys. You see the same thing with successful professional women, they feel that less-successful men are 'intimidated' by them, and look for at-least-as-successful guys with whom they can have an 'equal' relationship.

But you are not asexual anyway, are you?

Not remotely, no. My lines on that radar chart would be pretty far towards the outer edge for the most part.

 

[Stella_Omega]

i have to disagree with his observation that such women are in the market for 'sissy' men in any sense. 'Butch' girls or tomboys are interested in at-least-as-masculine guys. You see the same thing with successful professional women, they feel that less-successful men are 'intimidated' by them, and look for at-least-as-successful guys with whom they can have an 'equal' relationship.

Agreed, thanks for bringing that up.

I always did like feminine men-- androgyny in any form -- Ziggy Stardust -- but 'sissy? Not as I understood it. It was a caricature of femininity, and femininity in itself was a thing I was trying to distance myself from in those days.

Not remotely, no. My lines on that radar chart would be pretty far towards the outer edge for the most part.

Same here. That's a discussion I can only listen in on.

 

[Netzach]

While I can simply listen shut up and learn via the asexuality discussions, I will say that I think this diagram would be an amazing tool for diagnostics in any discussion of identity. It really helps break down where people are coming from in a useful and under-explored way.

 

[KoPilot]

While I can simply listen shut up and learn via the asexuality discussions, I will say that I think this diagram would be an amazing tool for diagnostics in any discussion of identity. It really helps break down where people are coming from in a useful and under-explored way.

Yes, aces have discovered just how complex relation gets when you take sex or lust out of the equation. It's the keystone of the entire construct of intimacy and attraction; without it everything else were taught comes tumbling down. Everyone can benefit from asking themselves these questions and breaking down their relationship types and growth cycles in this way, I think.

And fortunately, the 101 stuff is pretty easy to find~

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, aces have discovered just how complex relation gets when you take sex or lust out of the equation. It's the keystone of the entire construct of intimacy and attraction; without it everything else were taught comes tumbling down. Everyone can benefit from asking themselves these questions and breaking down their relationship types and growth cycles in this way, I think.

And fortunately, the 101 stuff is pretty easy to find~

This is true. For us sexual types, we can very often use sex to establish and reestablish connection with someone without too much mindful communication; I.E "They don't call it 'making love' for nothing." (I'm not 'splaining at you, KoPilot, I know you already know all of this)

All of my relationships were based on sexual attraction, up till I had kids, when I totally needed other types of connections. And I still feel most comfortable swimming in those waters.

 

[KoPilot]

This is true. For us sexual types, we can very often use sex to establish and reestablish connection with someone without too much mindful communication; I.E "They don't call it 'making love' for nothing." (I'm not 'splaining at you, KoPilot, I know you already know all of this)

All of my relationships were based on sexual attraction, up till I had kids, when I totally needed other types of connections. And I still feel most comfortable swimming in those waters.

A bit of a reminder that "all you need is love" is kind of a lie.

 

[KoPilot]

Talking to another trans* artist about the subject of name-changes and how to do such a thing while building a brand... she said to do it before really diving in otherwise it's going to be a mess.

So I've been "argargarg"ing about it for a week, because my timeline sucks.

1. I have to deal with moving to another country first. Not going to even think about touching any legal identity things until that's all sorted out.

2. If I changed my name, I'd have to give my family a reason for it. I would rather tell them while in the process of getting the surgery I want and do the name afterward.

3. I can't get the surgery done (I'm assuming this will have to be paid out of pocket) until I've got the funds for it. My funds are tied up in immigration and moving expenses right now, and once I move, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to keep this job. I might have to work minimum wage, and saving up on min wage is going to suck.

So theoretically, this would put my branding on hold for... years.

And then I realized I could technically just start using my chosen name as a pseudonym. So maybe it's not so bad. Idk. Anyone have any thoughts? :T

 

[Stella_Omega]

<snip>

And then I realized I could technically just start using my chosen name as a pseudonym. So maybe it's not so bad. Idk. Anyone have any thoughts? :T

"Stella Omega" is not what's on my driver's license....

Just saying.

 

[Netzach]

Talking to another trans* artist about the subject of name-changes and how to do such a thing while building a brand... she said to do it before really diving in otherwise it's going to be a mess.

So I've been "argargarg"ing about it for a week, because my timeline sucks.

1. I have to deal with moving to another country first. Not going to even think about touching any legal identity things until that's all sorted out.

2. If I changed my name, I'd have to give my family a reason for it. I would rather tell them while in the process of getting the surgery I want and do the name afterward.

3. I can't get the surgery done (I'm assuming this will have to be paid out of pocket) until I've got the funds for it. My funds are tied up in immigration and moving expenses right now, and once I move, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to keep this job. I might have to work minimum wage, and saving up on min wage is going to suck.

So theoretically, this would put my branding on hold for... years.

And then I realized I could technically just start using my chosen name as a pseudonym. So maybe it's not so bad. Idk. Anyone have any thoughts? :T

Name changes are a motherfucking asswrenching pain in my state, YMMV. Sorry I know that's not a pep talk. I can't believe the song and dance V is going through right now.

Here's what is good news: fuck brand consistency worries, we're small independent people not Pepsi Co. Not to dis your friend, but anything can be done just as well the less obvious way.

Your change is part of your story. Immigration is a transition, I mean look here you are in all kinds of "borders" and borders are very sexy in visual terms right now, no?

Or you're just changing because whatever, you feel like it as far as your audience needs to know - you're in control - the idea of working with a pseudonym is a brilliant way to cope by not dealing directly - I'm a huge fan of them and work under one almost always - the one upside to being a free agent is that you can be agile and do what you want. Compensate for your quirk in this regard by sticking to as many other bits of tested branding wisdom as you can.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Talking to another trans* artist about the subject of name-changes and how to do such a thing while building a brand... she said to do it before really diving in otherwise it's going to be a mess.

So I've been "argargarg"ing about it for a week, because my timeline sucks.

1. I have to deal with moving to another country first. Not going to even think about touching any legal identity things until that's all sorted out.

2. If I changed my name, I'd have to give my family a reason for it. I would rather tell them while in the process of getting the surgery I want and do the name afterward.

3. I can't get the surgery done (I'm assuming this will have to be paid out of pocket) until I've got the funds for it. My funds are tied up in immigration and moving expenses right now, and once I move, there's no guarantee that I'll be able to keep this job. I might have to work minimum wage, and saving up on min wage is going to suck.

So theoretically, this would put my branding on hold for... years.

And then I realized I could technically just start using my chosen name as a pseudonym. So maybe it's not so bad. Idk. Anyone have any thoughts? :T

Go for it! Why put off your dreams.

I have no idea where you're relocating to, if it happened to be the US you'd just start your business under your name, let's say Jane Smith but dba (doing business as) John Smith Designs. Maybe not using any pseudonym instead invent your own trademark name, register your trademark, which you can do internationally if you need to. Later after you change your legal name you can change the business ownership name. I'm sure most countries have something similar.

I realize your life is busy but at least start researching now. I'd recommend you start your research at the US Small Business Administration's Starting & Managing a Business webpage. It has very good information no matter where you'll be living. Pay particular attention to the articles about creating a business plan. Even if you don't intend to get financing a business plan is going to clarify in your own mind what you'll need to do to be successful.

 

[KoPilot]

Go for it! Why put off your dreams.

I have no idea where you're relocating to, if it happened to be the US you'd just start your business under your name, let's say Jane Smith but dba (doing business as) John Smith Designs. Maybe not using any pseudonym instead invent your own trademark name, register your trademark, which you can do internationally if you need to. Later after you change your legal name you can change the business ownership name. I'm sure most countries have something similar.

I realize your life is busy but at least start researching now. I'd recommend you start your research at the US Small Business Administration's Starting & Managing a Business webpage. It has very good information no matter where you'll be living. Pay particular attention to the articles about creating a business plan. Even if you don't intend to get financing a business plan is going to clarify in your own mind what you'll need to do to be successful.

Yeah, I couldn't use a DBA of the chosen name so I'd have to utilize some other legal business entity thing. (Moving out of the US, so I'll have to research the particulars, but I imagine they'll be largely the same.) I've done contract work under my own name before, so I know the basics of filing, but the rest can get complicated if you're not getting a paycheck from someone else...

As for the rest, I don't plan on being able to make enough money to even merit paying taxes on it for some time, so that's all speculation at this point. We'll see when I start sitting behind the table at conventions. But you're right-- if it turns out that I can make a decent second income out of this stuff, then I have to start thinking about that now. And double especially if it's something that actually looks somewhat promising once I've moved and possibly find myself unemployed.

HURRGH ADULTHOOD

Name changes are a motherfucking asswrenching pain in my state, YMMV. Sorry I know that's not a pep talk. I can't believe the song and dance V is going through right now.

Here's what is good news: fuck brand consistency worries, we're small independent people not Pepsi Co. Not to dis your friend, but anything can be done just as well the less obvious way.

Your change is part of your story. Immigration is a transition, I mean look here you are in all kinds of "borders" and borders are very sexy in visual terms right now, no?

Or you're just changing because whatever, you feel like it as far as your audience needs to know - you're in control - the idea of working with a pseudonym is a brilliant way to cope by not dealing directly - I'm a huge fan of them and work under one almost always - the one upside to being a free agent is that you can be agile and do what you want. Compensate for your quirk in this regard by sticking to as many other bits of tested branding wisdom as you can.

Sorry about that... I think they're pretty reasonable here in CA, all things considered. (Or so I've heard?)

Beh, more solid advice. I bet I could spin this whole story into something interesting. Thanks, Netz!

 

[Allyourbase]

(...)
So theoretically, this would put my branding on hold for... years.

And then I realized I could technically just start using my chosen name as a pseudonym. So maybe it's not so bad. Idk. Anyone have any thoughts? :T

...just start your business under your name, let's say Jane Smith but dba (doing business as) John Smith Designs. Maybe not using any pseudonym instead invent your own trademark name, register your trademark, which you can do internationally if you need to. Later after you change your legal name you can change the business ownership name. I'm sure most countries have something similar.

This! And what Stella said. Your branding really doesn't need to have anything to do with your legal name.

I know a trans person who changed their name twice, first to a neutral name as an artist pseudonym and then again because of transition, and still has their old name on his passport. - There's all this shit here in the Netherlands, a pretty okay country in other respects, about how you need to be sterile to be allowed a legal gender change. Ridiculous. I think they're changing it now. I hope your new home country at least is normal enough when it comes to surgery (here, I'm not sure many surgeons will help you without a letter from the gender team, and then it's murky waters, but that's not what we were talking about, so nevermind).

Good luck

 

[Dyslexicea]

Actually, I do think it is possible to be discriminated against if no one knows. The statistics that have to do with sexual health, for example. It really does matter if you're not out as bi, and people assume you're either gay or straight, and health providers or community programs give you information accordingly - only providing you with half you need to know.



Well, if these statistics are actually based on anything, and hey, they might be, then this is exactly what they disprove I am afraid.

Not wanting this thread to die and I did want to respond earlier. As far as health care, assuming it's available, goes it's always up to the individual to be honest. Not only honest but to be demanding of the needed information. Most medical professionals just aren't going to ask about our sexual practices, they should, they don't.

It's no different for straights, I just hate that term, if you don't ask, doctors just don't give information.

I keep all kinds of information, I never know when I'll want to write something. Women's health is an issue I've written about before, maybe I should write some articles about women not being honest with their doctors but it's been done before.

I Lied To My Gynecologist

 

[KoPilot]

Stumbled on this today (forgot how), but I figured some of you guys might find it a worthwhile read: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bisexuality-20130715,0,7912769,full.story

 

[graceanne]

Hey, I have a question. I PM'd etoile on facebook, but she's not on regularly, and my question is sort of time sensitive.

I'm the fund raiser coordinator for my daughters cheer club. We want to do a father/daughter dance this year, and we're trying to figure out how to phrase the flier so as to make it clear that this isn't just for male fathers, that female fathers are welcome, too. We really don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. However, none of us are entirely sure how to word that. Help, anyone?

 

[Dyslexicea]

Hey, I have a question. I PM'd etoile on facebook, but she's not on regularly, and my question is sort of time sensitive.

I'm the fund raiser coordinator for my daughters cheer club. We want to do a father/daughter dance this year, and we're trying to figure out how to phrase the flier so as to make it clear that this isn't just for male fathers, that female fathers are welcome, too. We really don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. However, none of us are entirely sure how to word that. Help, anyone?

I really can't help you, my daughters have two mothers. It's like asking us which one of us is the husband, no husband at our house unless he's an invited guest. Maybe you should just have a one parent/daughter dance which would include not only lesbian's with children but also include single mothers who's daughter's fathers take no interest in them. It would also include daughters who's father, for whatever reason, couldn't attend.

I don't want to seem rude, I appreciate you wanting to include us but to assume the stereotypical societal view where lesbian couples are all, one masculine the other feminine is just bull. We are like you, women, we come in all shapes and sizes, all gender expressions. Most of the time unless we or someone else tells you, you are never going to know we're lesbian.

graceanne, I'm not upset with you. You didn't hurt my feelings but it does at times get rather trying to have to deal with the way so many seem to stereotype us.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Stumbled on this today (forgot how), but I figured some of you guys might find it a worthwhile read: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bisexuality-20130715,0,7912769,full.story

I can't help but agree with a large part of the article, at least as concerns bi women. I do think parts of the article are flawed, like binge drinking. Drinking is part of the lesbian culture, not just bisexual women, bars, clubs are where we gather, where we meet new people, many bisexual women frequent these too, alcohol is a major problem among lesbians also.

Depression, all studies show lesbian/gay suffer depression more than the general population, most likely for the same reason bisexuals do, lack of acceptance.

Many gays and lesbian I know do feel if someone is bisexual they're really not bisexual but lesbians/gays in denial. The good part is so many of us don't except that stereotype.

Acceptance within the LGBT community, not nearly as excepting as it should be. We've left out a lot of others also, it's why so many of us want the LGBT community to be LGBTQ.

Stereotypes of bisexual women are not flattering. Autostraddle did a parity of bisexual women on April fool's day last year just to point out how absurd some of the beliefs about bisexual women are, it's very humorous but the sad part is that some do believe bisexual women are this way. The Dirty Truth About Bisexuals, A Case Study.

I still contend bisexual need to come out more than they do now. I know most of us well support them, I'll stand up with them, if someone throws stone I'll get hit too. We're never going to have a better world if we don't fight for one. Change doesn't just happen.

 

[graceanne]

I really can't help you, my daughters have two mothers. It's like asking us which one of us is the husband, no husband at our house unless he's an invited guest. Maybe you should just have a one parent/daughter dance which would include not only lesbian's with children but also include single mothers who's daughter's fathers take no interest in them. It would also include daughters who's father, for whatever reason, couldn't attend.

I don't want to seem rude, I appreciate you wanting to include us but to assume the stereotypical societal view where lesbian couples are all, one masculine the other feminine is just bull. We are like you, women, we come in all shapes and sizes, all gender expressions. Most of the time unless we or someone else tells you, you are never going to know we're lesbian.

graceanne, I'm not upset with you. You didn't hurt my feelings but it does at times get rather trying to have to deal with the way so many seem to stereotype us.

I know that, as every lesbian couple I've ever met were both feminine. At no point in my post did I say that I thought all relationship are masculine/feminine so please don't read anything into my post that isn't there.

 

[KoPilot]

I know that, as every lesbian couple I've ever met were both feminine. At no point in my post did I say that I thought all relationship are masculine/feminine so please don't read anything into my post that isn't there.

Yeah I have to agree with D-- the only way that you can truly make it inclusive is to get rid of the "father" thing and just put "parent". The only word that really describes the "father role", inasmuch as there is one, is "father".

 

[graceanne]

Yeah I have to agree with D-- the only way that you can truly make it inclusive is to get rid of the "father" thing and just put "parent". The only word that really describes the "father role", inasmuch as there is one, is "father".

Ok. I think that might work. That'd be a good way to also not dis-include single family homes, which is something else we're worried about.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I know that, as every lesbian couple I've ever met were both feminine. At no point in my post did I say that I thought all relationship are masculine/feminine so please don't read anything into my post that isn't there.

graceanne, as I said I wasn't upset, a little offended, yes. I deal with situations like this often, but when you use terms like, that female fathers are welcome, father equals masculine not just masculine but male. I don't really know how else I was to take it. I do know couples who do use the masculine to refer to one of the partners parental relationship, names like papa and daddy but they would be offended by the term female fathers, they are mothers.

I am happy to know you don't hold stereotypes about who we are.

May I also suggest when you have a mother/son dance you consider parent/son as some gay couples do have children and there are also single fathers to consider.

 

[KoPilot]

graceanne, as I said I wasn't upset, a little offended, yes. I deal with situations like this often, but when you use terms like, that female fathers are welcome, father equals masculine not just masculine but male. I don't really know how else I was to take it. I do know couples who do use the masculine to refer to one of the partners parental relationship, names like papa and daddy but they would be offended by the term female fathers, they are mothers.

I am happy to know you don't hold stereotypes about who we are.

May I also suggest when you have a mother/son dance you consider parent/son as some gay couples do have children and there are also single fathers to consider.

If it's for a cheer club, then there's a good chance they're all girls.

 

[BrightlyGo]

If it's for a cheer club, then there's a good chance they're all girls.

And it's not inconceivable that there might be a boy - or could be one, if a boy thought he might be accepted.

So, parent/child?

But, y'know, there are kids being raised by non-parent relatives....

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok. I think that might work. That'd be a good way to also not dis-include single family homes, which is something else we're worried about.

Or "Father Figures?"

Or something like that. Someone that is a parent but not necessarily the birth parent.