The Queernesss Thread

[BrightlyGo]

In the end most bisexual women end up in opposite sex relationships. This isn't from some study, this is the experiences of lesbians.

Even assuming a woman is at least as romantically attracted to other women as to men, there are a lot more straight men out there than lesbians. So, statistically, if she's open to both, and she's getting 10x as many men as women interested in her, she's more likely to find someone worth settling down with among the guys, first, just because there's more of 'em to choose from. Even if 90% of men don't do it for her, while most women do, the numbers'd still shake out to 50/50 which she ends up in a permanent relationship with.

So, yeah, bisexuals are going to end up in a lot of outwardly hetero relationships, because they'll just find more potential partners of the opposite sex.

 

[Allyourbase]

When you think about it, if there were no such thing as 'bi invisibility' (if it were just a choice that bi people were making), then anytime anyone saw a couple, they wouldn't know if they were bi or not, and if they cared, they'd ask. It'd be a polite, everyday question. (And, you can see how exclusive same-sex couples might not like that, as they'd have to constantly, maybe even aggressively, clarify their relationship and orientation to stay 'out.')

Or here's a thought experiment for Dyslexicea: imagine you're in a society in which polygamy is the norm. (...)
Would you really feel better about your orientation in such a society?

This is a really interesting thought experiment. Thanks for that.

To me the butch look always radiated confidence. Someone with a confident partner is no one to pity. JMHO.

Seriously sir, you are so right

The majority of men in the western world don't want a woman that looks confident in anything but her femininity. They want someone demure and fragile that they can protect. Someone who will put on makeup and heels and a pushup bra when it's time to "look nice".

There's dudes who like it. Straight guys, like, really straight. There's not a lot of them, but ever since I look like this, I sometimes spot someone looking at me or behaving around me in a certain way, and I see: hey, you're one of *those* guys. There's two I know of in my surroundings who seem to have a thing for it, as well as my partner. They all like femme and butch expressions. They are strong willed guys with sharp minds, and they enjoy people who are, well, not demure, in a lot of ways (not the femme people either). But, rare, yes.

That is a little difficult to parse. Hopefully it was a learning experience for her.

Irony wants that that trans boy got tested by her as well... He felt even worse afterwards. I understand her confusion and curiosity, but for the sake of the people who come there to be tested, I hope she doesn't work there anymore.

i don't experience 'empathy' a lot and never know how to express it, but, uh, 'yes?'

Dude...

That's kinda why i'm here. I suppose he could just not tell you his user name? Or, conversely, you could block him and just not look at what he has to say?

(i have this compulsion to look for solutions to problems, even if they're none of my business, so sorry if i overstepped there, or if those are obviously stupid ideas)

Yeah, I thought of you as well. And that could... work? I want to know why he thinks guys like him aren't online sharing this stuff in the first place, actually. I asked, and he said: good question, i dunno. Well that ain't helping!

That's what I thought too, until I realized that I could count the number of trans* people who I'd seen reference cishet male partners in their online dialogues on one hand. Transmasculine people and nonbinary AFABs seem to either be single, or partnered with a queer woman or another trans* person.

No gay cis men? Do gay ftm usually end up with other ftm?

 

[Stella_Omega]

You may be correct but you cannot lump all those people into one study and come up with anything meaningful.

You and I are never going to agree on self labels, I can label myself a duck but it doesn't make me a duck. If you want to label yourself a lesbian you don't do guys. Most of us won't even allow you the label if you still desire men but don't. I'm not one of those but if you occasionally bat for the other team you're not a lesbian.



I do not expect anyone to do things the way I think they should be done. I don't much care how others conduct their lives as long as it doesn't negatively affect my own or those I care about. Yes Stella she's a lesbian she doesn't do dick, it has nothing to do with being a good person or how she conducts her life. I'm a lesbian, I don't do dick, I don't desire dick, I don't desire an emotional relationship with a man. Can I have sex with a man, obviously, if I do so and I continue to do so I would not be a lesbian, I'd be bisexual. I find nothing wrong with being bisexual, I've had my share of relationships with bi women but I wasn't looking for a long term relationship.

If you really labelled yourself a duck, I personally would thenceforth think of you as a duck. All the feathers and the bill.

I don't give a single fucking fuck about the mainstream. I care about lesbians politically-- I believe that lesbians have a right to HAVE a mainstream of their own and I am fighting for that right. But I'm not part of it.
I realise that this means I won't meet many women who define themselves as lesbians, but i can live with that. I've found that I clash with most of the lesbians I have dated, not about sex but about other things where they expect normativeness from me and dont get it.

No gay cis men? Do gay ftm usually end up with other ftm?

Gay FTM end up with men who possibly never expected to end up with an FTM. They end up with men who identify as pan sexual, or as queer. They end up with other FTMs. But I think KP was saying that men don't talk about their relationships, as much as women do.

 

[Allyourbase]

Regarding closets, I have a facebook account in my real name. And although my husband and I are separated, we still list each other as spouses. And we have a company in the sports industry-- which has it's share of homophobia, and I am looking more and more male every time someone posts a picture of me...and my legal name is normally a male name, which was totally a coincidence.

So it's starting to look as if my husband is married to another man. I'm not sure if this appearance bothers him, or jeopardizes our company in any way. It doesn't seem to bother him in the least...

Did you hide/change your gender or did you do the facebook gender hack thing towards genderless? (Whoo, I was so happy when that worked again.) Otherwise you'll probably be 'she'. Then again, when it doesn't bother him...

 

[BrightlyGo]

The majority of men in the western world don't want a woman that looks confident in anything but her femininity. They want someone demure and fragile that they can protect. Someone who will put on makeup and heels and a pushup bra when it's time to "look nice".

That's a pervasive stereotype, yes. Actually, i guess it's two. The other being that there are women who are /only/ 'confident in their femininity.' I've never known a confident person who was confident in only one area. Confidence in one area makes you more confident in others (not all, but more than just the one).

But, yeah, i was speaking for myself that time.

There's dudes who like it. Straight guys, like, really straight. There's not a lot of them, but ever since I look like this, I sometimes spot someone looking at me or behaving around me in a certain way, and I see: hey, you're one of *those* guys. There's two I know of in my surroundings who seem to have a thing for it, as well as my partner. They all like femme and butch expressions.

Glad to hear i'm not alone. i like to think most guys don't buy into the marketing/Hollywood/fashion ideal as wholesale as people think. For one thing, the sheer variety of made-for-guys porn says otherwise. For another, i've seen too many successful marriages where the woman not only deviated from that narrowly-defined ideal, but was decidedly different from the guy's usual 'type.'

Yeah, I thought of you as well. And that could... work? I want to know why he thinks guys like him aren't online sharing this stuff in the first place, actually. I asked, and he said: good question, i dunno. Well that ain't helping!

i was going to say 'it can't hurt to try,' but, obviously, it can

Blogging's another possibility.

This is a really interesting thought experiment.

i just hope it doesn't trigger or offend anyone

 

[Stella_Omega]

Did you hide/change your gender or did you do the facebook gender hack thing towards genderless? (Whoo, I was so happy when that worked again.) Otherwise you'll probably be 'she'. Then again, when it doesn't bother him...

Right? But it's funny when I talk feminism now. I've been accused of mansplaining

 

[Allyourbase]

Right? But it's funny when I talk feminism now. I've been accused of mansplaining

Bwhahahah!

And I wondered what the T was doing for you

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bwhahahah!

And I wondered what the T was doing for you

1) It's keeping my hands in my pants-- I've suddenly gotten even better at typing one-handed.
2) it *seems* I can't be sure, to have released me from a light depression,
3) I am much more capable of stepping back emotionally -- you know, that thing that drives women crazy? -- or maybe that's just asbergers plus more self awareness.
4)I have a better spatial sense then I've ever had. That one is wierd.
5) I don't respond to color as I used to-- instead of being drawn to purple, I am drawn to indigo.
6)I experience anger differently than I used to. I have a need to react physically, like flipping the bird-- before I can find my words.
8) I have to move around now, I can't stay on the internet all day.
9) Unless I'm surfing gelburoo or rule34, and then I can fap all day...

 

[Allyourbase]

1) It's keeping my hands in my pants-- I've suddenly gotten even better at typing one-handed.
2) it *seems* I can't be sure, to have released me from a light depression,
3) I am much more capable of stepping back emotionally -- you know, that thing that drives women crazy? -- or maybe that's just asbergers plus more self awareness.
4)I have a better spatial sense then I've ever had. That one is wierd.
5) I don't respond to color as I used to-- instead of being drawn to purple, I am drawn to indigo.
6)I experience anger differently than I used to. I have a need to react physically, like flipping the bird-- before I can find my words.
8) I have to move around now, I can't stay on the internet all day.
9) Unless I'm surfing gelburoo or rule34, and then I can fap all day...

Spatial sense? Emotions? Libido? Anger?

But: color... that's unexpected.

I could use some number 2 and 8 actually. So could my SO by the way.

 

[Dyslexicea]

If you really labelled yourself a duck, I personally would thenceforth think of you as a duck. All the feathers and the bill.

And you already know I'm just awful at keeping my own rules. I'm not a duck but to me you're a lesbian.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And you already know I'm just awful at keeping my own rules. I'm not a duck but to me you're a lesbian.

Quack quack, baby

As an aside, I am really happy to meet BrightlyGo. Really glad to have an eloquent and opinionated cis male queer around!

And it's really typical that the queers are hanging out in this forum instead of the one that is ostensible meant for them.

 

[KoPilot]

That's a pervasive stereotype, yes. Actually, i guess it's two. The other being that there are women who are /only/ 'confident in their femininity.' I've never known a confident person who was confident in only one area. Confidence in one area makes you more confident in others (not all, but more than just the one).

But, yeah, i was speaking for myself that time.

Yeah, it's just a touchy spot for me. I've known too many women who've gotten endless shit for something as dumb as their hair. I was never perceived to be attractive by anyone when I had short hair except for the occasional lesbian (not that I didn't mind the compliment!). Even my husband mourned the loss of my long bob when I chopped it all off (for both presentation and, honestly, mental health reasons; I didn't like seeing so much hair fall out all the time). I asked him if he still found it attractive and I got "whatever makes you happy", which is technically fine, but it just proves my point even more.

I've also been accused of scaring people away because of my confidence, which I guess is supposed to be a black mark against me.

And it's really typical that the queers are hanging out in this forum instead of the one that is ostensible meant for them.

Sorry but... that forum scares me, lol. I pop in there every once in a while to see if there's anything for me in there and I just see a bunch of masturbation threads and it's like "kay, guess not". Sometimes sexual enthusiasm gets really tiresome and overwhelming for me. It's why I would never go to a lgbtq+ event, at least not on my own. My asexuality would kick and and I would feel majorly out of place.

 

[Allyourbase]

I asked him if he still found it attractive and I got "whatever makes you happy", which is technically fine, but it just proves my point even more.

Yep, this. But I got that when I got dreadlocks as well, and I had those for 13 years before I let him shave my head, so I guess at least he really means it when he says that.

Sorry but... that forum scares me, lol. I pop in there every once in a while to see if there's anything for me in there and I just see a bunch of masturbation threads and it's like "kay, guess not". Sometimes sexual enthusiasm gets really tiresome and overwhelming for me. It's why I would never go to a lgbtq+ event, at least not on my own. My asexuality would kick and and I would feel majorly out of place.

And this too. I like the daily vibe thread, but the rest scares me a bit.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Like it's bad to make excuses, i think, was her point. Thing is, there are really issues, like:

When you think about it, if there were no such thing as 'bi invisibility' (if it were just a choice that bi people were making), then anytime anyone saw a couple, they wouldn't know if they were bi or not, and if they cared, they'd ask. It'd be a polite, everyday question. (And, you can see how exclusive same-sex couples might not like that, as they'd have to constantly, maybe even aggressively, clarify their relationship and orientation to stay 'out.')

Wouldn't every hetero couple have to answer the same question? If you assume lesbians/gays wouldn't like the question, the same would have to hold true for heteros. You'd also have to assume lesbian, gays and heteros believe bi-oriented people are less than we are. Which is, at least among the majority of those of us who are younger and lesbian, along with many older fair minded lesbians, a very wrong assumption.

No it wouldn't be a polite everyday question, the question wouldn't be asked, it just wouldn't matter to anyone.

I realize you're trying to understand, you are, at least as I understand it from your post, bi-curious but being bi-curious doesn't make you bi-anything, fantasy doesn't always work in reality. Genderqueer you are, you don't fit how society believes a man should be.

To really understand, you need to not think in terms of sex, only orientation. Sex is a learned behavior, we can all learn to enjoy sex with every possible variety of human being. Every variety of gender XX, XY and XO, add in all the other gender possible for humans who have 48 chromosomes instead of the typical 46, such as XXXX and XXXY. What people do tend to do is have sex with those who fit their orientation, which in my opinion has to do with the emotional factor. I don't mean the I love you emotion.

Sex, in all its varieties is not a complicated subject, orientation is much more complicated, it isn't just X,Y,Z in many cases it isn't even based on biological gender. An asexual person still has an orientation, it can be to one gender, both genders or no gender at all. The same can be said for a sexual person. I think this is what KoPilot was pointing out when she wrote.

We've separated sex and gender, great. Now let's start separating our attractions, otherwise there will be no end to the Who's A Real Heterosexual/Homosexual/Bisexual/Ace debates. The "-sexual" portion of those words? They mean just that.

I don't know if you can just use Real, yes some of us are Real Heterosexual/Homosexual/Bisexual/Ace, in my opinion, and science seem to be leaning this way, we are born who we are. For others, at least lesbians, it can be a choice, in many cases a choice forced on them by violent men or even a hatred of men. Even the lesbian/bi relationship where the bi takes on the label lesbian, it can and does work.

/<Rant> you can skip this paragraph/When they don't work, most don't, it's more likely not the bi's or the lesbian's fault but societal pressures. It is easier to live as a hetero, no one is going to hate you just because you're hetero. It is easier to raise children in a hetero relationship, no other child is going to hate your child because of her/his parent's heterophobia, no adult is going to hate your child just because your family is mother father. No one is going to deny you your parental rights based on you're being heterosexual. No one is going to deny you a job just because you're a heterosexual. No one is going to invalidate your marriage because you move to another state. How many pages do I need to write, bisexual women do leave loving lesbian relationships for men, we can argue this forever but from my experience it holds true.

Back on topic. If our orientation is biological doesn't it stand to reason for most of us being queer is also biological? It's the only way I can account for so many of us never feeling we really fit. It's one thing to make a choice but knowing even when you are very young you just don't fit, you're not like everyone else is something entirely different.

I'm queer, not in orientation only, I don't really have a gender identity, it's why sometimes I feel not a she but an it. Outwardly I express myself more feminine, less so as I've matured I do dress much more unisex, but my femininity isn't from the inside, I simply chose to look this way, I continued to do so to please Jessie. I've been intrigued by the tomboyish look, outwardly expressing both masculine and feminine. I know I'm both masculine and feminine and maybe that look would make me feel I was dressing from my inside out, not just wearing clothes, not just wearing makeup, not just doing my hair. Does that make any sense to anyone other than myself?

 

[Stella_Omega]

You totally make sense to me, Dyslexicea. That was well put.

 

[BrightlyGo]

if there were no such thing as 'bi invisibility' (if it were just a choice that bi people were making), then anytime anyone saw a couple, they wouldn't know if they were bi or not, and if they cared, they'd ask.

Wouldn't every hetero couple have to answer the same question?

And every gay couple, yes. If there were no 'invisibility,' there would be no assumption that the sex of the person you have on your arm reveals all there is to know about your orientation.

You'd also have to assume lesbian, gays and heteros believe bi-oriented people are less than we are.

Not for bi to simply not be invisible, no. They could be visible but face discrimination or visible but accepted. In a practical sense, it would probably have to evolve that way: facing /more/ discrimination for being aggressively 'out' to end the invisibility before there's any chance of getting accepted.

 

[Dyslexicea]

You totally make sense to me, Dyslexicea. That was well put.

Thank you!

It was wordy and I didn't cover KoPilot's attraction or my own feelings about attraction. I think we all could become so attracted to someone, in my case it would have to be a man, that nothing else matters, rules, community or orientation.

 

[Netzach]

Whenever there's a major freakout about nature and nurture, I stick to my wishy-washy ways and maintain that there's usually a point of synthesis. There's some biological tendency, but there have to be favorable social conditions for it to go anywhere.

And the vast majority of people absent all social conditioning, I believe, will screw everyone like bonobos. Nobody's absent all social conditioning, and it's not an "everyone's really bi" assertion - I just can't believe how many men have the desires, let's put it that way.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I know people who are monosexual-- attracted only to one sex, period.
But not many.

Those people often express a sense of bafflement when they talk about any other attraction, rather than with hatred or fear-- anyone who expresses homophobia, I figure them to be suppressing some urges.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I realize you're trying to understand, you are, at least as I understand it from your post, bi-curious but being bi-curious doesn't make you bi-anything, fantasy doesn't always work in reality.

Just to be clear, i'm not groping about for an identity to 'find myself' or anything (though i am certainly going through some sort of mid-life crisis at the moment) - i know what i am, i just don't find a label that describes it succinctly. 'Bi-curious' for instance, really implies wanting to experiment and explore your own sexuality - i'm not unsure of my own sexuality, just unsure of how to label it for others' understanding.

If i were just to go with what's in my heart, i'd say "submissive," and leave everything else out of it.


(At the same time, i feel like a want a precise label, because it'd be a sort of validation.)

Genderqueer you are, you don't fit how society believes a man should be.

It's an imprecise label, but it's growing on me.

I've been intrigued by the tomboyish look, outwardly expressing both masculine and feminine. I know I'm both masculine and feminine and maybe that look would make me feel I was dressing from my inside out, not just wearing clothes, not just wearing makeup, not just doing my hair. Does that make any sense to anyone other than myself?

Kinda. In the 80s, i tried for an androgynous look, but was only able to pull it off for a few years, because my body was just determined to be very masculine. Eventually i realized that dragonlady fingernails and feminine mannerisms and Boy-George hair were just things i was doing to try to encode who i was into the non-verbal language of a culture that had no place for it, and that i didn't really want to be feminine and wasn't uncomfortable having a male body. i just needed things that society associated with femininity and female bodies, and, women had been fighting for and getting things associated with masculinity and male bodies, so why shouldn't i? Well, it turned out because there's no political movement fighting for that, but even so, as an individual, i am able to have some of what i need - i've had to make compromises and accept that i couldn't have everything i wanted, but that's just life, it's true for everyone to a greater or lesser extent. Even if i'd been 100% behind wanting exactly what society said i should, there was never a guarantee that i'd've gotten it.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Speaking of androgynous, here's what Plato had to say.

“First you must learn what human nature was in the beginning and what has happened to it since, because long ago our nature was not what it is now, but very different. There were three kinds of human beings, that’s my first point—not two as there are now, male and female. In addition to these, there was a third, a combination of those two; its name survives, though the kind itself has vanished. At that time, you see, the word ‘androgynous’ really meant something: a form made up of male and female elements, though now there’s nothing but the word, and that’s used as an insult."

 

[Porkwarrior]

Colour me one of the "rare" straight-but-heteroflexible guys that love a woman not afraid to get dirty & hands on.
To me a woman in worn jeans & wife beater loading plywood in the back of a van in a Home Depot parking lot is so much hotter than the sexiest lingerie displayed on a 1000 thread count cotton sheets on a four poster bed.

At a point in my life I even spent more time than was healthy hanging around very out lesbians looking to lick the odd crumb that was dropped on my table (which is a topic for another thread, but very few lesbians have had zero hetero encounters).

I didn't and still don't know why women shouldn't embrace their masculine side while still feeling like a woman. But most that do look for sissy men, which I am not and can never be for longer than an evening.

I am a true Switch Alpha, and don't know why it's so hard to find an Alpha female that not only craves to have a man restrained doing her bidding, but one that can match her physically and have her enjoying being bested...and the occasional bruise on both of us.

 

[KoPilot]

Sex, in all its varieties is not a complicated subject, orientation is much more complicated, it isn't just X,Y,Z in many cases it isn't even based on biological gender. An asexual person still has an orientation, it can be to one gender, both genders or no gender at all. The same can be said for a sexual person. I think this is what KoPilot was pointing out when she wrote.

The way the multiple-attractions model is usually explained is striking me as more and more clinical as time goes by, so I don't much like going into detail about it anymore, but I think sometimes it really is helpful. It helped me a lot. But it basically goes like this.

This is why we need to start getting people to think about their desires and attractions in this way. Not everyone is romantically inclined, or even romantically inclined toward the gender they're sexually attracted to and find aesthetically pleasing. And so on. A true-blue lesbian might have all of her attraction compasses pointing in the same direction. For someone like me, they're not.

Beyond being ace, I don't really know where I stand, honestly. I've always felt like something was missing every time I talked about sex, and that it would click once I started having it. I've been sexually active for a number of years now, and it still hasn't quite clicked. Something about it has never ever come naturally to me and it never will. I love going into sex shops with S, but part of me still feels like going into a men's restroom is less daunting. I only feel safe because I have him as a sexual buffer; as an emotional translator to help me navigate.

Growing up I never fantasized about women, and femininity only entered my fantasies as a way for the male fetish character to show that he was just so dominant that gender presentation didn't matter a whit. Only in recent years have I started being able to look at XX bodies and associate them the kind of dominance I'd always craved. My fantasies were sexual but not. Thinking about -actually- having sex with someone resulted in a blank for me-- a "bafflement", like Stella described. I seem to have a thing for cocks that is completely independent from the body its attached to.

It's a minefield of "I don't know", but the ace part is the one thing I can take solace in. And yes, my current relationship really is a happy accident. I had no idea how to communicate, how to express affection, how to grok intimacy. In a way, I still don't. But at least I can sort of hide behind him and say "well, I'm glad I don't actually need to know, because boy do I not care to find out", and I can sort of fumble around with him but it's ok because he knows it's just who I am.

my femininity isn't from the inside, I simply chose to look this way, I continued to do so to please Jessie.

I know exactly how this feels. Femininity is a learned behavior, a survival mechanism for me. It doesn't emanate from anyplace inside, they're just bits and pieces I've sort of picked up along the way and now I'm doing the work of sorting through them and learning to be OK without the ghillie suit.

 

[BrightlyGo]

But it basically goes like this.

This bit struck me:

"Primary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual because it'll feel good.
Secondary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual to express love or to enjoy the other person's sexual pleasure."

Last thing i expected was sex-to-express-love as "secondary."


"You don't have to experience platonic attraction to enjoy having friends"

What if you don't much enjoy having friends?

 

[KoPilot]

This bit struck me:

"Primary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual because it'll feel good.
Secondary Sexual - wanting to do something sexual to express love or to enjoy the other person's sexual pleasure."

Last thing i expected was sex-to-express-love as "secondary."

I don't quite agree with that. My understanding is that primary/secondary/tertiary/etc attractions is basically just establishing what things draw you to a person in what order.

For me, it's generally been one of two ways:

Aesthetic > physical > kink
Fantasy > kink
Platonic/aesthetic > physical/romantic > kink

If you experience sexual attraction ONLY after another kind has been established, generally an emotional/platonic connection but sometimes others, then that's typically been associated with orientation-types like gray-asexuality and demisexuality. Romantic attraction is the other one that gets talked about a lot.

"You don't have to experience platonic attraction to enjoy having friends"

What if you don't much enjoy having friends?

Then you don't have to experience platonic attraction to not much enjoy having friends either?