The Queernesss Thread

[Allyourbase]

In my opinion bisexual invisibility is a matter of choice, bisexual don't come out, they don't tell mom, dad, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, employers, fellow employees or anyone they aren't involved with.

Actually, I do think it is possible to be discriminated against if no one knows. The statistics that have to do with sexual health, for example. It really does matter if you're not out as bi, and people assume you're either gay or straight, and health providers or community programs give you information accordingly - only providing you with half you need to know.

If she's out but she doesn't claim she's lesbian I don't really think she'll face much discrimination, some yes. If he's out he'll face just as much discrimination as a gay does but not more.

Well, if these statistics are actually based on anything, and hey, they might be, then this is exactly what they disprove I am afraid.

 

[Dyslexicea]

For instance, there are more reported suicide /attempts/ among women, it's in actual suicide deaths that men outnumber them 3:1. Suicide attempts are sometimes called a 'cry for help,' and society tells men that asking for help is a failure and shameful. Men tend to choose deadly weapons (they're 'manly') which are more likely to result in success, and leave them mangled. Women tend to choose poisons or drug overdoses which will leave their corpses intact, and incidentally have a longer window in which they might be saved.

When I ran a razor across my wrist and laid in my tub waiting for my life to drain away it wasn't a cry for help. I wanted to die. The reason many women do not use guns is most don't own guns. Even when there is a gun in the house most don't even know how to use them.

When you or i walk down the street with our respective monogamous female partners, anyone looking 'knows' that you're a lesbian and i'm straight. For you, being 'out' is a matter of directly telling a few people you care about, and then not hiding your relationship with a woman. If you were bi, you could tell people, but when you were out with a woman, people would 'know' you were a lesbian, and when you were out with a man they'd 'know' you were straight - so being out would be a matter of explaining yourself constantly. (And think about how that explanation /sounds/. It sounds like you're dissatisfied with your partner or trawling for threesomes.)

In my experience most bisexual women don't want a public display of affection, at least if it's where they are known and two women together is not uncommon it means nothing about orientation. It's the same for men. I can't hide being out, nor do I care to, a bisexual can and more likely than not their primary relationship is hetero. In my opinion you're just making excuses for not being out. Like I stated being invisible is a choice, it's a choice some lesbians/gays made for a long time, to long of a time. Hiding changes nothing, if you're in the closet no amount of studies are going to change things.

 

[KoPilot]

Like I said elsewhere, who you have sex with doesn't define who you're attracted to.

This is a hotly debated topic in the ace community, though it's pretty commonly accepted and only the anti-sexual elitists and ace purists still find it controversial. Do you have to swear an oath of celibacy in order to be asexual? Are you not allowed to find anyone pretty? Are you not allowed to masturbate? Not allowed to have a libido? Not allowed to enjoy the physical sensation of sex? Not allowed to get into a relationship with a non-celibate partner? Not allowed to fantasize? Not allowed to have kinks? Not allowed to have a physical response to being stimulated?

No, on all counts.

It apparently is an enormously difficult concept to entertain for most people, but it is possible to have sex with someone, and enjoy it without finding them sexually attractive or appealing. We do it all the damn time.

And I'm super fucking skeptical that only aces and people on the asexual spectrum are like this.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Actually, I do think it is possible to be discriminated against if no one knows. The statistics that have to do with sexual health, for example. It really does matter if you're not out as bi, and people assume you're either gay or straight, and health providers or community programs give you information accordingly - only providing you with half you need to know.

I'd agree with you if we, Americans, had a fair health care system, we don't. Being poor or even lower middle class means poor or non existence health care. If a person has any kind of health care it's their responsibility to be honest with their health care provider.

Well, if these statistics are actually based on anything, and hey, they might be, then this is exactly what they disprove I am afraid.

As I stated earlier I find the study flawed, some studies do justify her conclusions but many others don't. If you start with a bias almost anything can be proved, truth or not.

Would we have a better society if bisexuals could be comfortable with being out and be treated with respect, it surely we would. Isn't that true for all of us, to many of us are not treated with the respect we deserve. To many of us can't be who we need to be and not be in one way or another discriminated against.

This very discussion is about those of us who happen to be queer, and in one way or another we aren't truly accepted for who we need to be, it isn't want to be, it is needs to be. It's better now than it's ever been and when I really feel down I just think of how much better off I am than so many others. If we really want to talk about discrimination, about safety, about violence, about health care options in America, as it concerns the LGBTQ community it isn't the B who really is left out it's the T.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Like I said elsewhere, who you have sex with doesn't define who you're attracted to.


It apparently is an enormously difficult concept to entertain for most people, but it is possible to have sex with someone, and enjoy it without finding them sexually attractive or appealing. We do it all the damn time.

And I'm super fucking skeptical that only aces and people on the asexual spectrum are like this.

I agree but I still have to be attracted in some way or another. For me it has to be a stronger attraction than just sexually. I can, could anyway, do a one-nighter with someone I'm sexually attracted to but for someone who I'm not sexually attracted to the attraction has to be much deeper.

 

[KoPilot]

I agree but I still have to be attracted in some way or another. For me it has to be a stronger attraction than just sexually. I can, could anyway, do a one-nighter with someone I'm sexually attracted to but for someone who I'm not sexually attracted to the attraction has to be much deeper.

Yeah, which is why folks generally have their other attraction buttons being hit.

I find him aesthetically pleasing, inasmuch as I care for romance and that sort of thing, he does the trick, I like the way the way my 5 senses perceive him. He's good at pushing me around when I want/need it, he's good at giving me the tactile stimulation and adrenaline rush I want. We're very good friends and emotional allies. I consider our relationship queerplatonic more than anything else, even though we look cishet.

I mean, there's a reason I think of myself in terms of an androphile moreso than straight; things line up in such a way to make me look like your average cishet girl, but if that were the case, I don't think I'd have had so much trouble being happy and self-loving with the relationship we settled into by default. I thought I was unlovable scum for a long time, but thinking about things in terms of a collection of attractions more than just one monolithic sexual-romantic-aesthetic-sensual-kink attraction model helped me a lot.

We've separated sex and gender, great. Now let's start separating our attractions, otherwise there will be no end to the Who's A Real Heterosexual/Homosexual/Bisexual/Ace debates. The "-sexual" portion of those words? They mean just that.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I can't hide being out, nor do I care to, a bisexual can and more likely than not their primary relationship is hetero. In my opinion you're just making excuses for not being out. Like I stated being invisible is a choice, it's a choice some lesbians/gays made for a long time, to long of a time.

I find nothing wrong with being bisexual, I've had my share of relationships with bi women but I wasn't looking for a long term relationship.

From that 'study:'
http://www.sf-hrc.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=989

Other forms of biphobia:

 Assuming bisexuals are incapable of monogamy
...
 Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an “opposite” gender/sex
coupling to reap the social benefits of a “heterosexual” pairing.
 Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual.
 Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality
...

 

[Netzach]

bisexual don't come out, they don't tell mom, dad, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, employers, fellow employees or anyone they aren't involved with. I'm out, I live with another woman, we have children, I'm vocal and I'm discriminated against. It's hard to be discriminated against if no one knows. If she's out but she doesn't claim she's lesbian I don't really think she'll face much discrimination, some yes. If he's out he'll face just as much discrimination as a gay does but not more.

We don't? I did. A lot of people I know did.

If I wasn't sufficiently clear about my orientation I knew I would never meet partners who were on the same page that I'm on. It's just far too far from heteronormative, what I desire.

Some don't. It doesn't seem to lessen the amount of shit that keeps them from being out. Some people are confrontational. Some people are pretty privileged in where they live. Some people know that sooner or later they're going to be walking hand in hand with someone of their gender and they're absolutely one of those dreaded people who can't do monogamy, no thank you.

Anyway -

That's like saying religious discrimination doesn't matter because you can't take a look at that person and know which one they adhere to.

I look like a ragged squishy presumed het middle aged woman to all outside eyes.

I'm still having the same problems in fact probably more and weirder ones when my MD asks me "what birth control do you use?" then they act like they expect me to be on none because my primary partner is snipped and filled with estrogen to boot, and is now my wife when a year ago they were meeting my husband. Then I have to explain that I use condoms with my other partner, and then God knows what they think.

My biggest headache right now as a person is my having to interface with the medical community as a chronically ill person and also as the partner of a transwoman. Believe me, "I'm a lesbian" would be a simplifying and more comfortable thing to tell them and have them deal with.

And if you want to play "who makes the least money and has the hardest time being employed" nobody cis is winning that one.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, which is why folks generally have their other attraction buttons being hit.

I find him aesthetically pleasing, inasmuch as I care for romance and that sort of thing, he does the trick, I like the way the way my 5 senses perceive him. He's good at pushing me around when I want/need it, he's good at giving me the tactile stimulation and adrenaline rush I want. We're very good friends and emotional allies. I consider our relationship queerplatonic more than anything else, even though we look cishet.

I mean, there's a reason I think of myself in terms of an androphile moreso than straight; things line up in such a way to make me look like your average cishet girl, but if that were the case, I don't think I'd have had so much trouble being happy and self-loving with the relationship we settled into by default. I thought I was unlovable scum for a long time, but thinking about things in terms of a collection of attractions more than just one monolithic sexual-romantic-aesthetic-sensual-kink attraction model helped me a lot.

We've separated sex and gender, great. Now let's start separating our attractions, otherwise there will be no end to the Who's A Real Heterosexual/Homosexual/Bisexual/Ace debates. The "-sexual" portion of those words? They mean just that.

I just don't feel like I get to draw those lines in the sand for anyone but me. Gold star lesbian and you ID as a lesbian? Check, right. Completely hetero history and one day ran away with this woman and you never knew it could be like this? The hell I'm going to tell you you can't call yourself a lesbian.

 

[KoPilot]

I just don't feel like I get to draw those lines in the sand for anyone but me. Gold star lesbian and you ID as a lesbian? Check, right. Completely hetero history and one day ran away with this woman and you never knew it could be like this? The hell I'm going to tell you you can't call yourself a lesbian.

It's like how I'm sure my husband would tell you off if you tried to tell him that he couldn't possibly be straight anymore because he wound up getting hitched with a genderless thing. Not that he doesn't have the least to lose in this race but you know what I mean

 

[Netzach]

It's like how I'm sure my husband would tell you off if you tried to tell him that he couldn't possibly be straight anymore because he wound up getting hitched with a genderless thing. Not that he doesn't have the least to lose in this race but you know what I mean

I guess that's part of it too, though, most people go out looking *for* what they wind up with in the way of partners based on parameters, and some people just wind up with something wonderful they hadn't really factored.

 

[KoPilot]

Dyslexicea, what's your opinion on Erika Moen?

 

[Allyourbase]

I agree with you here, it's just I like to make mention of it because it was a very serious pit I fell into initially and it took me a number of years to get out of it. "I can't be feminine because that means I'm weak and women are weak and they suck and I think I'm probably actually a gay man and I don't need any girly anythings or people in my life 5ever".

Oh this! Yes. I even struggle with that now... One of the major existential questions around getting to grips with myself: is my gender issue something legit or just some fucked up internalized self inflicted form of mysogynistic femme-phobia? (Now there's a line to casually drop at a party.)

yep. It's a word 'they' gave us. I was so happy to discover that "we" had words for ourselves.

Yes! And then you get the whole: why cling to labels? Well, dude, because if I don't label myself, you guys will.

I asked the one woman if she, too was on T and if she was transitioning, and she said-- "no, actually, I'm a trans woman."
It surprised me-- I think it surprised everyone, including the other trans women. Even after she told me, and I was looking for telltales, she was a totally cis woman, butch-ish and not caring about looking feminine.

That is so good to read. A trans woman who feels comfortable being butch...

You may be correct but you cannot lump all those people into one study and come up with anything meaningful.

As I stated earlier I find the study flawed, some studies do justify her conclusions but many others don't. If you start with a bias almost anything can be proved, truth or not.

I personally would think that if bisexuals were better off than gay people, even when this study is flawed, it would reflect at least some of that.

So I took another look at the study, and even though I do agree it's hard to come to solid conclusions when there's little data, I think they made the best of it. And the lack of data is one of the issues they identify, so I think that's fair.

The study names these issues on beforehand, and provides a definition: it has looked at results from studies that collect usable data from people who self label as bi, queer, or otherwise non-monosexual, or people who describe their sexual activities as with more than one gender. I don't think putting these categories together gives very unreliable results per se - this basically is the group you'd want to study, right? Especially since in every chapter, the studies and results are being discussed in a bit more detail (whether the number of respondents or the method used is reliable, what the differences are between genders, etc.)

The only thing that I consistently found lacking was an explicit mention of the country that particular studies used.

For example, there's a list of conclusions from two large scale studies that says that bisexual people experience greater health disparities than the broader population, higher rates of hypertension, poor or fair physical health, smoking, and risky drinking than heterosexuals or lesbians/gays, don't come out to their healthcare providers, aren't adequately adressed by most HIV and STI prevention programs and (one that really saddened me) bisexual women in relationships with monosexual partners have an increased rate of domestic violence compared to women in other demographic categories.

This is based on two large scale studies in Canada about men's health and women's health, where I think the health system is way better, and that must matter.

I also think that your objection of lumping everyone into one study is just as problematic the other way around. Not everyone who identifies as a 'lesbian' is someone who has exclusively women-only sex. Also: bisexuals and homosexuals are usually lumped together in studies, and this skews what we think we found about gay people.

I'd agree with you if we, Americans, had a fair health care system, we don't. Being poor or even lower middle class means poor or non existence health care. If a person has any kind of health care it's their responsibility to be honest with their health care provider.

I'd say that the fact many people aren't, might point to the opposite: if you have any health care at all, let's not jeopardize that.

In my opinion you're just making excuses for not being out. Like I stated being invisible is a choice, it's a choice some lesbians/gays made for a long time, to long of a time. Hiding changes nothing, if you're in the closet no amount of studies are going to change things.

Just making excuses for not being out? Like, there's good excuses and bad ones?

If we really want to talk about discrimination, about safety, about violence, about health care options in America, as it concerns the LGBTQ community it isn't the B who really is left out it's the T.

These are not mutually exclusive, you know.

We don't? I did. A lot of people I know did.

Yeah, me too. Parents, friends, even at work. Not to my doctor though.

Though telling that does feel like saying I'm not into my current partner, usually I got the stereotypical well-meant-but-prejudiced 'oh your partner wouldn't mind probably, that's a guy's wet dream, right?' *wink, nudge*
*sigh* yeah okay thanks

That changed when I cut my hair and butched up again. Now I think they pity him.

That's like saying religious discrimination doesn't matter because you can't take a look at that person and know which one they adhere to.

This ^

It's like how I'm sure my husband would tell you off if you tried to tell him that he couldn't possibly be straight anymore because he wound up getting hitched with a genderless thing. Not that he doesn't have the least to lose in this race but you know what I mean

I got a similar experience. Was at an STD-clinic for a test, in Amsterdam of all places, but the girl there was totally oblivious, I bet she was new. She was so surprised when told her who my partner was, and she couldn't wrap her head around what he was doing with me. 'Not that you look bad or anything!' Sure, gee, thanks. 'But he's really straight?' Yes, yes he is...

Extra bonus stuff: I was there because at that point we'd opened up, and on my end that meant I was having hawt D/s-fueled gay seckxs with a bisexual trans man. Her confusion knew no end. And I even left out the whole kink thing altogether.

I should've just hit on her while she took my pap smear. With those sexy gloves. Just to mess some more with whatever it was she was thinking.

No, really, when I stood outside, I felt pretty dirty. Not std-test dirty, but undesireable for my partner dirty.

 

[KoPilot]

One of the major existential questions around getting to grips with myself: is my gender issue something legit or just some fucked up internalized self inflicted form of mysogynistic femme-phobia?

I like how it could be spun that all TG people are misogynistic. Trans men? Misogynists! Trans women? Misogynists! Genderqueer and nonbinary people? Everyone's a misogynist!

That changed when I cut my hair and butched up again. Now I think they pity him.

No, really, when I stood outside, I felt pretty dirty. Not std-test dirty, but undesireable for my partner dirty.

Ugh, that sucks. I haven't brought my relationship into my medical life yet beyond "uh, yes" when asked if I'm sexually active, and I'm hoping it can stay that way. It probably will come up later when I try and get my surgery the DSM way (if that doesn't work then I'll have to see if I can pull the endometriosis card).

But yeah, social "fallout" for him is something I'm paranoid about.

 

[Dyslexicea]

From that 'study:'
http://www.sf-hrc.org/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=989

Other forms of biphobia:

1. Assuming bisexuals are incapable of monogamy...
2. Assuming that bisexuals, if given the choice, would prefer to be in an “opposite” gender/sex
coupling to reap the social benefits of a “heterosexual” pairing.
3. Assuming bisexuals would be willing to “pass” as anything other than bisexual.
4.Believing bisexuals are confused about their sexuality
...

1. Yes some people assume many things, many people believe lesbians/gays are the same. Many relationships are based on monogamy, hetero, lesbian, gay, bisexual and whatever. Many people believe all relationships should be monogamist, I'm not one of those. We have not always been monogamist, weren't, were and as of recently aren't, most likely we'll never be strictly monogamist. We don't have an open relationship, doesn't work for us but we do share sex with others. Emphasis intended.
2. I just don't want to get into this debate, all I can tell you is, most of the time if a lesbian is in a loving relationship with a bisexual woman she'll end up with her heart broken. I'm not claiming all such relationships fail. In the end most bisexual women end up in opposite sex relationships. This isn't from some study, this is the experiences of lesbians.
3. I have no comment other than to ask how many out bisexual women do you know. Pansexual women yes they are open, bisexual not so much so.
4. Does that shock you, we, lesbian/gay, were considered mentally ill by the APA until 1973. Many conservative and religious people still consider us mentally ill or spawns of the devil.

*Edited to add. Why would those who hate feel any other way about someone who is bisexual?

 

[Allyourbase]

I like how it could be spun that all TG people are misogynistic. Trans men? Misogynists! Trans women? Misogynists! Genderqueer and nonbinary people? Everyone's a misogynist!

Oh, good point. Had not zoomed out like that yet.

Ugh, that sucks. I haven't brought my relationship into my medical life yet beyond "uh, yes" when asked if I'm sexually active, and I'm hoping it can stay that way. It probably will come up later when I try and get my surgery the DSM way (if that doesn't work then I'll have to see if I can pull the endometriosis card).

But yeah, social "fallout" for him is something I'm paranoid about.

My guy recently wondered what to do if he needed someone to talk to about this stuff. It's not like he can expected to be comfortable walking into the queer scene as a het cis guy, and support groups for partners are not the kind that he needs. I had no real answer.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Dyslexicea, what's your opinion on Erika Moen?

It's just been recently that I've discovered comics as both art and literature. I'd never seen or read any of her work until she was interviewed by Autostraddle. I do love her art and her comics, her husbands art is also amazing. I like what she has to say and how she says it.

I've just started exploring these comics are well. http://www.autostraddle.com/seven-queer-webcomics-that-are-not-dar-184960/

*She's hot too!

 

[Netzach]

2. I just don't want to get into this debate, all I can tell you is, most of the time if a lesbian is in a loving relationship with a bisexual woman she'll end up with her heart broken. I'm not claiming all such relationships fail. In the end most bisexual women end up in opposite sex relationships. This isn't from some study, this is the experiences of lesbians.

I keep hearing this and I've been accused of this. I've noticed that it prevents anyone from ever taking any responsibility in a breakup if their partner is bi.

It's basically a convenient salve for the ego, I guess. When women break *my* heart I can't just say "well they're lesbians, what can I expect?."

(In my case, no it wasn't because you were a relapsing alcoholic, it was because I met a man and I just can't face my real lesbian orientation. Such were the myths I inspired.)

Heartbreak is kind of endemic to the human condition. Everyone gets to be the asshole in relationships at some point, but if you're bi bet on your orientation being the problem.

When this is the attitude you're met with, I wonder WHY most bi women end up in relationships with non-lesbians.

Personally, I won't date monosexuals. Of any gender.

 

[KoPilot]

My guy recently wondered what to do if he needed someone to talk to about this stuff. It's not like he can expected to be comfortable walking into the queer scene as a het cis guy, and support groups for partners are not the kind that he needs. I had no real answer.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons I want S to write a piece about what our relationship is like from his POV, because stories like his are severely, severely lacking. And I don't really know why-- is it because cismen have a much lower tolerance than ciswomen for fluidity in their partners? Is it because they're afraid of the repercussions for talking about their relationships? To anyone? Is it because gender non-conforming people and trans* people get completely written off by cismen as potential partners?

Anyways, I looked and looked for resources for him and found nothing. The vast majority of partners of trans* people seeking help in open forums are from cis women in relationships with trans* women. The majority of writing on the subject is the same. I haven't even gotten many hits when looking for general writing on being nonbinary in a relationship with a monosexual.

I'll link his piece here when he gets around to writing it.

 

[Allyourbase]

Yeah, it's one of the reasons I want S to write a piece about what our relationship is like from his POV, because stories like his are severely, severely lacking. And I don't really know why-- is it because cismen have a much lower tolerance than ciswomen for fluidity in their partners? Is it because they're afraid of the repercussions for talking about their relationships? To anyone? Is it because gender non-conforming people and trans* people get completely written off by cismen as potential partners?

Anyways, I looked and looked for resources for him and found nothing. The vast majority of partners of trans* people seeking help in open forums are from cis women in relationships with trans* women. The majority of writing on the subject is the same. I haven't even gotten many hits when looking for general writing on being nonbinary in a relationship with a monosexual.

I'll link his piece here when he gets around to writing it.

That would be awesome, please do. I have no idea why it's not there, but it's not there.

The only other place I know where he could go and talk, including kink, would be, well... here. But then I'd be here as well, so that could defeat the entire purpose.

 

[Netzach]

I think a lot of it is gender guys just process a lot less of their shite verbally and in online share mode than people with life experience as XX's do, on average.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Just making excuses for not being out? Like, there's good excuses and bad ones?

Like it's bad to make excuses, i think, was her point. Thing is, there are really issues, like:

Though telling that does feel like saying I'm not into my current partner, usually I got the stereotypical well-meant-but-prejudiced 'oh your partner wouldn't mind probably, that's a guy's wet dream, right?' *wink, nudge*
*sigh* yeah okay thanks

When you think about it, if there were no such thing as 'bi invisibility' (if it were just a choice that bi people were making), then anytime anyone saw a couple, they wouldn't know if they were bi or not, and if they cared, they'd ask. It'd be a polite, everyday question. (And, you can see how exclusive same-sex couples might not like that, as they'd have to constantly, maybe even aggressively, clarify their relationship and orientation to stay 'out.')

Or here's a thought experiment for Dyslexicea: imagine you're in a society in which polygamy is the norm. Gays are still in the shadows, and what lesbians do isn't even thought of as sex, just a 'phase' that girls might go through, or something bored wives do to liven things up. When you go out openly with your partner and your kid, people who see you think you're co-wives. Even if you show affection for eachother, they figure you're just aren't getting enough from the man you share. When you do try to explain the truth, reactions range from incomprehension, to shock, to assuming that you're sexual deviants coming on to them or professionals looking for a customer.

Would you really feel better about your orientation in such a society?

That changed when I cut my hair and butched up again. Now I think they pity him.

To me the butch look always radiated confidence. Someone with a confident partner is no one to pity. JMHO.

Extra bonus stuff: I was there because at that point we'd opened up, and on my end that meant I was having hawt D/s-fueled gay seckxs with a bisexual trans man. Her confusion knew no bounds.

That is a little difficult to parse. Hopefully it was a learning experience for her.

No, really, when I stood outside, I felt pretty dirty. Not std-test dirty, but undesireable for my partner dirty.

i don't experience 'empathy' a lot and never know how to express it, but, uh, 'yes?'

The only other place I know where he could go and talk, including kink, would be, well... here.

That's kinda why i'm here.

But then I'd be here as well, so that could defeat the entire purpose.

I suppose he could just not tell you his user name? Or, conversely, you could block him and just not look at what he has to say?

(i have this compulsion to look for solutions to problems, even if they're none of my business, so sorry if i overstepped there, or if those are obviously stupid ideas)

 

[Dyslexicea]

I keep hearing this and I've been accused of this. I've noticed that it prevents anyone from ever taking any responsibility in a breakup if their partner is bi.

It's basically a convenient salve for the ego, I guess. When women break *my* heart I can't just say "well they're lesbians, what can I expect?."

(In my case, no it wasn't because you were a relapsing alcoholic, it was because I met a man and I just can't face my real lesbian orientation. Such were the myths I inspired.)

Heartbreak is kind of endemic to the human condition. Everyone gets to be the asshole in relationships at some point, but if you're bi bet on your orientation being the problem.

When this is the attitude you're met with, I wonder WHY most bi women end up in relationships with non-lesbians.

Personally, I won't date monosexuals. Of any gender.

But bisexual women do just that, "I just can't live with another woman, she's just too emotional.", or something similar. Blame works both ways.

I just can't face my real lesbian orientation.

Yes this and it's so bogus, too many lesbians/gays seem to feel this way, if you're bi you're really a lesbian or gay in hiding. You may think I'm too opinionated but I do know a bisexual is not ever going to be just same sex oriented even if she/he is in a life time same sex relationship and never has sex with anyone else. Orientation doesn't really matter if the relationship works, whatever form the relationship takes.

I just don't feel like I get to draw those lines in the sand for anyone but me. Gold star lesbian and you ID as a lesbian? Check, right. Completely hetero history and one day ran away with this woman and you never knew it could be like this? The hell I'm going to tell you you can't call yourself a lesbian.

I'm not going to say she isn't a lesbian, she is.

I'm not gold star, I don't place any real value on being so. Actually just the opposite, how in the hell can someone be really sure if they haven't had a relationship with the opposite sex. I don't regret having those relationship, I have some good memories and some not so good. The sex was not god awful, with my last boyfriend, my I'm not a lesbian boyfriend, he was nineteen I was fifteen, it was way better than just good. I have no desire to be with a man but I'll never regret that time in my life, at least not because of the boys.

 

[KoPilot]

I think a lot of it is gender guys just process a lot less of their shite verbally and in online share mode than people with life experience as XX's do, on average.

That's what I thought too, until I realized that I could count the number of trans* people who I'd seen reference cishet male partners in their online dialogues on one hand. Transmasculine people and nonbinary AFABs seem to either be single, or partnered with a queer woman or another trans* person.

To me the butch look always radiated confidence. Someone with a confident partner is no one to pity. JMHO.

The majority of men in the western world don't want a woman that looks confident in anything but her femininity. They want someone demure and fragile that they can protect. Someone who will put on makeup and heels and a pushup bra when it's time to "look nice".

 

[Stella_Omega]

Every single lesbian I know has had her heart broken. It doesn't matter if the woman was bi or gold star, women leave each other in nasty ugly ways more often than not.

And I have seen bisexual women leave a lez relationship and go right into another lez relationship. I've seen bisexual women dump men for women. I see women dump women for other women allll the time.

Being dumped for a man wouldn't hurt any more than being dumped for another woman-- except that for lesbians, male privilege is the turd in the cultural toilet we all swim in.


Regarding closets, I have a facebook account in my real name. And although my husband and I are separated, we still list each other as spouses. And we have a company in the sports industry-- which has it's share of homophobia, and I am looking more and more male every time someone posts a picture of me...and my legal name is normally a male name, which was totally a coincidence.

So it's starting to look as if my husband is married to another man. I'm not sure if this appearance bothers him, or jeopardizes our company in any way. It doesn't seem to bother him in the least...