A good (long) read on gun control.

[Sean]

Chinups doesn't argue. He strokes his ego in public. He's a boring and patronizing poster with a set of standards for himself and another for everyone else.

I have never seen a correlation proved between strict gun laws and lower gun crime rates. Here, take a look at this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world

Or just explain why Vermont has so few gun crimes, with our crazy Wild West style gun laws. If you want to make the argument that strict gun laws save lives, you need to start explaining why Chicago and DC are gun murder Meccas while VT and AK are not. I think there's another explanation at work. There are other variables.

Of course there are other variables. Try population density for one. And, despite the NRA talking points, Chicago and DC don't even make the top ten for US gun crime cities.

 

[Peregrinator]

Interesting article.

http://m.ibtimes.co.uk/daillon-switzerland-swiss-shooting-sandy-hook-newtown-420584.html

 

[Peregrinator]

Of course there are other variables. Try population density for one. And, despite the NRA talking points, Chicago and DC don't even make the top ten for US gun crime cities.

Not for violent crime anyway. But who gives a shit about Flint?
This is a good read. Interesting that the CDC reports a decline since 2007, even though people went nuts buying guns based on NRA fear mongering when Obama was elected.

http://qvga.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

 

[eyer]

It's hilarious that whatever is called a "discussion" on this issue completely entails the pros and/or cons on actually infringing - in some way - the right to bear arms...

...when the 2nd was intentionally Amended to the Constitution to specifically forbid that very act.

The latent disingenuousness of individual liberty-hating socialists and statists can be no more overt on this issue:

Denying they aim to infringe on an individual's inherent right to bear arms...

...while proposing to do exactly that.

I will post it one more time:

The only legal avenue to infringe on any law-abiding citizens' unalienable right to bear arms...

...is to ratify a 28th Amendment to repeal the simple intent of the Constitutional Law of the 2nd - first.

The natural lawlessness of socialists and statists to infringe on the right to bear arms for any/all law-abiding Americans...

...is revealed in their intentional refusal to follow the Law in their tyrannical attempt.

Why aren't you socialists and statists campaigning for the only solution to what you emotionally proclaim is the problem: law-abiding Americans' free access to arms, and their unabashed patriotism in championing the unalienable right to bear them?

Socialists and statists honestly admitting they want the 2nd repealed and openly - legally - working toward that goal...

...is as utopian a hope as socialists and statists admitting publicly they're socialists and statists in the first place.

Friggin' disingenuous pieces of sh!t...

 

[PoppingTom]

It's hilarious that whatever is called a "discussion" on this issue completely entails the pros and/or cons on actually infringing - in some way - the right to bear arms...

What do you want to do?

Tell us bullshit a hundred times until we believe it?


Go out on the streets, pray your bullshit with a megaphone. May the walls "discuss" with you.

 

[Weird Harold]

Guns are made for killing. Period.

It doesn't matter if you only can kill a mouse with it or only injure a human. Their intent is killing. There's no other use.

The people who make a living manufacturing and the competitors who spend thousands on rifles like these disagree with you:

http://1000yardhunter.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/photo_2.18793853_large.JPG

http://1000yardhunter.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Picture_18.94190804_large.png

http://1000yardhunter.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/photo_1.18794119_large.JPG

FWIW, I can't find a single instance where a firearm built or used for competition has ever killed anything other than paper targets.

 

[PoppingTom]

The people who make a living manufacturing and the competitors who spend thousands on rifles like these disagree with you:

FWIW, I can't find a single instance where a firearm built or used for competition has ever killed anything other than paper targets.

Who is YOU?

The walls eyer speaks with?

 

[eyer]

What do you want to do?

Tell us bullshit a hundred times until we believe it?


Go out on the streets, pray your bullshit with a megaphone. May the walls "discuss" with you.

Speaking of "walls"...

...you continue to demonstrate you're just as thick.

If you haven't received the pertinent message yet, let me remind you:

"us" doesn't apply at all to you...

...you're simply a token Kraut and have no practical effect at all on this American issue.

Deal with it.

Innumerable will soon accurately describe the times I've clearly stated now the only practical solution to "the problem" socialists and statists like yourself deem to be so...

...and for all the walls like you out there, let me state it just as clearly again:

The only legal avenue to infringe on any law-abiding citizens' unalienable right to bear arms...

...is to ratify a 28th Amendment to repeal the simple intent of the Constitutional Law of the 2nd - first.

Now, be the good little socialist tongue-dripper you are and disingenuously tell "us" you don't really intend to infringe on law-abiding Americans' unalienable right to bear arms...

...while you intentionally plot and plan and commentate on doing exactly that without respect for the Law of the 2nd - first.

Friggin' piece of lawless, statist sh!t...

 

[PoppingTom]

...you're simply a token Kraut and have no practical effect at all on this American issue.

Deal with it.
.........


Now, be the good little socialist tongue-dripper you are and disingenuously tell "us" .....

What ? Why?

You still listen to me like to a "discussing wall".

You get off at the 2nd amendment shit, that's why you megaphone it the whole night out in your neighbourhood. Despite the fact people here talk about gun control, while you only hear gun ban. You sue ME or your discussing walls about the fact, you can't see any difference in those words. But the difference is essential. Because gun control doesnt affect the 2nd amendment at all.

There are only three differences in this case between my and your country:

1. We dont have a 2nd amendment
2. We dont care about it
3. We don't believe in guns as problem solvers

But we still have our guns. But don't listen to me. Listen to your walls. Because the walls can't be wrong. They've got no reason.

 

[Weird Harold]

Who is YOU?

The walls eyer speaks with?

The idiot that said this:

Guns are made for killing. Period.

It doesn't matter if you only can kill a mouse with it or only injure a human. Their intent is killing. There's no other use.

[emphasis mine]

 

[blobfish]

The fact that a thread with this title has 111 replies is testament to the deterioration of the General Board.

 

[jomar]

I'll just repost my FB comment:

I stopped reading at

What Mr self confessed shill for the gun industry fails to mention is that not one of those 22 children died. Not one. On the same day that Adam Lanza pulled the same shit in CT and massacred twenty children and six adults.

Exactly. I see this and roll my eyes.

The guy cited all his weapons expert bona fides like that makes him a research and policy expert. All it does is make him another guy with an opinion.

Thanks for letting us know which side you're on.

Signing up for my CCW next week. Just saying.

 

[BusyAfternoon]

An interesting web-site just forwarded to me.............SELF DEFENSE MAP

And, to keep things real, here's a list of recent gun-related incidences that we don't read much about....



TN - Marine Reserve Sergeant Stands Guard In Front Of Hughson Elementary School (12/19/12)

TX - Armed Citizen Stops Shooting Spree and Saves Cop by Making 150+ Yard Shot With a Pistol (8/1/12)

GA - Woman Kills Would Be Rapist With .22 Pistol (5/13/11)

NM- 11 Year Old Girl Defends Home with .22 Rifle (8/13/10)

GA - One Armed Robber Shot & Killed by Would be Victim, Other Robber Charged With His Murder (12/26/12)

NM - Woman Shoots & Kills Suspected Rapist Who Followed Her Home (12/25/12)

IN - 79 Year Old Grandfather Shoots and Kills Man Who Was Beating His Granddaughter (12/24/12)


CA - Homeowner Shoots and Kills Armed Home Invader, Wounds 2 Others as Children Have Sleepover (12/23/12)

TX - Houston Motel Clerk Shoots Robbery Suspect in East Harris County (12/22/12)


TX - Resident Shoots and Kills Armed Intruder Protecting His Girlfriend and 2 Yr Old (12/21/12)

GA - Homeowner Uses Gun to Fight Off 2 Violent Home Invaders, Saves Family (12/21/12)

UT - Pastor Uses Laser Sighted Gun to Protect His Family From Intruder on Drugs (12/20/12)

NC - Charlotte Detective Fires at Home Invader Trying to Break Into His Home (12/20/12)

NC - Employee at Internet Cafe Fights Off Shotgun Wielding Robbers Using his Own Gun (12/18/12)

NC - Homeowner Shoots and Kills Sex Offender During
Early Morning Home Invasion (12/17/12)

OH - Homeowner Shoots and Kills Burglar Who Also Broke Into Neighboring Apartment (12/16/12)

TX - Homeowner Shoots Knife Wielding Home Invader While on the Phone with 911 (12/16/12)

MS - Resident Shoots Burglar Who Tries to Escape From 3rd Story Balcony (12/14/12)


GA - 77 Year Old Atlanta Grandmother Opens Fire on Burglar (12/14/12)

MI - 81 Year Old Detroit Man Fights Off Intruder With Antique .22 Revolver (12/13/12)

TX - Store Clerk Shoots Knife Wielding Armed Robber on Crime Spree (12/13/12)

SC - Greenville Deputy Shoots Suspect Holding Knife to Store Clerk’s Throat Through a Window (12/13/12)

KS - Homeowner Forced to Shoot Intruder After Being Attacked (12/12/12)

WY - Pistol Packing Lady Stops Armed Robbery Before It Happens in Wyoming (12/12/12)

CA - Homeowner Shoots Daytime Burglar Multiple Times in the Chest (12/11/12)

OH - Armed Robber is Shot and Killed by Two Clerks (12/10/12)

CAN - Canadian Homeowner Shoots and Kills 1 of 3 Home Invaders (12/8/12)

CA - Homeowner Opens Fire on Three Burglars (12/8/12)

MI - Store Clerk Shoots Knife Wielding Armed Robber in the Head (12/3/12)

79 Year Old Hall of Fame Cowboy Disarms and Beats Armed Intruder in TX (12/4/12)

IN - Gas Station Clerk Shoots 1 of 2 Would Be Robbers (12/3/12)

VA - AutoZone Employee FIRED After Stopping Robbery (11/30/12)

TX - Homeowner Shoots 1 of 2 Burglars Taking Property From His Home (11/28/12)

TN - Homeowner Shoots 1 of 2 Violent Home Invaders in Chest (11/30/12)

TX - Homeowner Shoots and Captures Knife Wielding Daytime Burglar (11/28/12)

FL - Teenager Shoots & Kills Abusive Father as He Choked and Beat Teen’s Mother (11/27/12)

NJ - Store Clerk Shoots 1 of 3 Armed Robbers, Ends Their Recent Crime Spree (11/21/12)

TN - Homeowner Shoots and Kills 16 Yr Old Home Invader (11/17/12)

SC- Female Store Clerk Gets in Gun Fight With 3 Armed Robbers and Wins (11/14/12)

OH - Concealed Carrying Walmart Customer Draws Gun on Parking Lot Attacker (11/13/12)

OK - Disabled Veteran Shot Man Who Was Breaking Into His Home (11/11/12)


PA - Homeowner Shoots Teenage Burglar – Second Time Home Was Broken Into (11/9/12)

CA - Store Clerk Shoots 1 of 2 Armed, Masked Robbers (11/8/12)

TX - Elderly Homeowner Shoots 2 Home Invaders, Kills 1 (11/7/12)

FL - Undercover Detective in FL Shoots and Kills Shotgun Wielding Robbery Suspect (11/6/12)

CA - 69 Year Old Homeowner Shoots Intruder in Buttocks With .38 During Robbery (11/5/12)

MO - Concealed Carrying Bank President Pulls Gun on Halloween Robber (10/30/12)

UT - Homeowner shoots home invader, protecting wife and child (10/30/12)

NM - Store Clerk Shoots 2 Armed Robbers, Kills 1 Who Was Gang Member (10/22/12)

LA - Cab Driver Shoots Armed Robber in the Face (10/26/12)

FL - Homeowner Shoots 1 of 3 Armed Home Invaders During Gunfight (10/26/12)

OK - 12 Year Old Girl Shoots Home Invader With History of Kidnapping Using Her Mom’s Glock (10/19/12)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I asked this is another thread but got no reply that I can remember (I'll go backand look later):

If the intent behind an objects's creation is irrelevant, why does firearms and the ownership thereof need a protection with a specific clause in the United States' constitution?

If guns are nothing special... why. Are. There. Gun. Rights?

Because the cops cant always be there when you need them; theyre usually the last to showup for the fun.

 

[PoppingTom]

Because the cops cant always be there when you need them; theyre usually the last to showup for the fun.

Seems like American cops are the only ones not doing their job.

 

[PoppingTom]

The people who make a living manufacturing and the competitors who spend thousands on rifles like these disagree with you:...

FWIW, I can't find a single instance where a firearm built or used for competition has ever killed anything other than paper targets.

We're talking about guns here, not about sports weapons. Following that, I had to say that bows and crossbows are made for killing, too. But both are only fabricated for sports use today. If the same was done with guns in your country, nobody would bitch about.

But the problem is, that the main intent of the 300 million guns in your country is killing. People buy guns for that reason, no other. Keep the sports weapons and the collectors of old guns out, as they don't justify the existence and the profit of the gun industry.

 

[Weird Harold]

We're talking about guns here, not about sports weapons.

There is no functional difference between the rifles I pictured and the hunting weapons and sniper rifles made by the same company. "Sports Weapons" are "Guns" no matter how much you wish to make artificial distinctions.

But the problem is, that the main intent of the 300 million guns in your country is killing. People buy guns for that reason, no other. Keep the sports weapons and the collectors of old guns out, as they don't justify the existence and the profit of the gun industry.

Extrapolating from my own guns, only one of the four was acquired for the purpose of killing anything -- and that "anything" wasn't human, it was cervine. By that measure 225 million of the 300 million guns in private hands were purchased for target shooting or collections rather than to "kill someone."

 

[Sean]

An interesting web-site just forwarded to me.............SELF DEFENSE MAP

And, to keep things real, here's a list of recent gun-related incidences that we don't read much about....



TN - Marine Reserve Sergeant Stands Guard In Front Of Hughson Elementary School (12/19/12)

The very first one on your list is a lie. I didn't even bother checking the rest.

 

[bra_man69]

January 7, 2013: One of the great mysteries is why murder rates, especially with firearms, varies so much around the world. There is little correlation between gun laws, the number of guns per capita and the rate of people being killed by guns. For example, murder rates went up in the United Kingdom and Australia after stricter gun laws were passed. Yet Germany, with five times as many legal guns in civilian as Britain has a much lower murder rate. The key variable appears to be culture, or the mix of cultures in a country.

For example the two most dangerous regions are Latin America and sub-Saharan Africa. Both have murder rates of about 20 per year per 100,000 population. North Africa is 5.9 and North America is 3.9. Europe is 3.5 and Asia is 3.1. Some of the differences can be attributed to the easier availability of firearms (Cold War surplus AK-47s and other infantry weapons), especially in Africa, in the 1990s (after the Soviet Union and several other communist dictatorships fell and their vast weapons holdings hit the arms market) making the frequent tribal conflicts much deadlier. Before the cheap AK-47s hit Africa Latin America had long been the most violent place on the planet.

This dire situation has long been recognized in South America. Five years ago the Organization of American States (OAS) issued a study reporting that there 80 million privately owned firearms in Latin America. For a region with 550 million people, that's a lot of firepower. There were 90,000 attacks using firearms in 2007, which is about 16 per 100,000 population. Add other deaths from knives, machetes, blunt instruments and so on and the rate goes over 20.

At that time the murder rate in the Western hemisphere (about 8 per 100,000 people a year) was much higher than in Europe, where it has long been between 3 and 4. Middle Eastern nations have likewise varied between 5 and 10. The United States is often regarded, at least by Europeans, as a wild, gun happy place. But the national murder rate has been declining for two decades and is currently about 4.8 per 100,000. There are other parts of the world that are more violent. Iraq had a murder rate of 26 at the height of the Sunni terrorist campaign in 2008, now it’s less than a tenth of that. Under Saddam the murder rate was 10-20 a year. In Africa, especially Congo, Sudan and South Africa, you find rates as high as 30 or more.

While firearms make it easier to kill, they are not necessary for a high murder rate. Parts of Asia, Latin America and Africa have murder rates of over ten (or much more) per 100,000, without the presence of many firearms. To lower the murder rate, something has to be done about anger management, more so than weapons control. Criminals can always get banned weapons, and in some parts of the world, the anger issues are much worse than in others. Corrupt and ineffective government is the most common cause of anger, and this has been a problem that is difficult to deal with.

Frontier areas have long been noted for less law and more violence. The Western Hemisphere has retained many traits of a frontier culture. Tribal societies are more violent than those using more advanced forms of government (monarchy, democracy), a fact which is often ignored. But anthropologists, archaeologists and historians continue to uncover more evidence that tribal systems are very violent and have always been so. Add more effective weapons to this and you get massive deaths. One reason for the enormous population growth in Africa after the 19th century was the European colonial rule stopped the incessant, and debilitating, tribal warfare. While the colonial administrations were none too gentle, tribal wars often ended up in the extermination of the losing tribe. Over the last half century, the new governments in Africa have continued to police the many tribal conflicts, but the introduction of cheap AK-47s make this much more dangerous for the security forces.

In Latin America (Colombia) and Asia (Afghanistan and Burma) the production of heroin (and other opiates) by criminal gangs provided so much money that these gangs (often joined by rebel groups) were able to arm themselves so well that the local security forces were put on the defensive. Taking down these drug gangs cost a lot of lives especially when they were aided by existing rebels (the Taliban in Afghanistan and leftist groups in Colombia). These drug gangs rose to prominence starting in the 1960s (Burma and the “Golden Triangle”). The heroin trade was eventually driven out of Burma and ended up in Pakistan’s tribal territories and was quickly pushed across the border into Afghanistan. The Colombian drug gangs have been driven into neighboring nations over the last decade, lowering Colombia’s murder rate and increasing it next door.

 

[PoppingTom]

There is no functional difference between the rifles I pictured and the hunting weapons and sniper rifles made by the same company. "Sports Weapons" are "Guns" no matter how much you wish to make artificial distinctions.

In my country, sports guns are different, as the ammo is designed to do less to no harm. Maybe in your country, there's no difference.

Extrapolating from my own guns, only one of the four was acquired for the purpose of killing anything -- and that "anything" wasn't human, it was cervine. By that measure 225 million of the 300 million guns in private hands were purchased for target shooting or collections rather than to "kill someone."

What do you want to tell me? That all the 300m guns are for sports? Why all the threads, all the discussions, all the 2nd amendment paranoia?

You may be only a sportsman, when it comes to guns. Much like most German gun owners. But that's not the reason for any conflict relating gun controls here.

 

[Weird Harold]

In my country, sports guns are different, as the ammo is designed to do less to no harm. Maybe in your country, there's no difference.

The three rifles I linked images of all fire .308 Savage/NATO 7.62 cartridges. Those are NOT air rifles that fire low velocity .77 inch pellets. They are optimized for a sport most popular in the UK and Australia -- shooting at ranges over 1000 meters.

What do you want to tell me? That all the 300m guns are for sports?

Again: "By that measure 225 million of the 300 million guns in private hands were purchased for target shooting or collections..."

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that the vast majority of firearms in the US -- three fourths if I'm typical -- were not purchased with the intent of killing humans.

Why all the threads, all the discussions, all the 2nd amendment paranoia?

You may be only a sportsman, when it comes to guns. Much like most German gun owners. But that's not the reason for any conflict relating gun controls here.

It is precisely because I primarily own guns as a hunter that I object to blanket condemnation of "guns" as "dangerous to public safety" and attempts to ban guns on that basis.

Every time there is a shooting that makes headlines, the only reaction I see from anti-gun people is "OMG we must ban all guns!!!!!! " That appears to be the only answer a large portion of the world's population can come up with.

I've asked several times in several different forums, "If armed guards aren't the answer to immediate protection of student, what is." I have yet to receive any answer except "We must ban all guns before they cause the teachers to go crazy and kill all of their students," or something similar.

From YOU all I get is "All Guns Are Meant To Kill" without any distinction made in the hundreds of types of "guns" which sounds very much like you want to ban MY guns because of the actions of a nutjob or two -- who use firearms that are only very distant cousins to what I own.

 

[PoppingTom]

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that the vast majority of firearms in the US -- three fourths if I'm typical -- were not purchased with the intent of killing humans.

You've got 4 of them...and speak for 300m others? How can you do that?

It is precisely because (1)I primarily own guns as a hunter that I object to blanket condemnation of "guns" as "dangerous to public safety" and attempts to ban guns on that basis.

Every time there is a shooting that makes headlines, the only reaction I see from anti-gun people is (2)"OMG we must ban all guns!!!!!! " That appears to be the only answer a large portion of the world's population can come up with.

I've asked several times in several different forums, (3)"If armed guards aren't the answer to immediate protection of student, what is." I have yet to receive any answer except "We must ban all guns before they cause the teachers to go crazy and kill all of their students," or something similar.

(4)From YOU all I get is "All Guns Are Meant To Kill" without any distinction made in the hundreds of types of "guns" which sounds very much like you want to ban MY guns because of the actions of a nutjob or two -- who use firearms that are only very distant cousins to what I own.

(1) Hunting IS killing. Don't try to water it down in a sentimental dash.

(2) You like truisms? Well...Everytime I say "gun control", gun advocates like you say "So you want to ban all guns!", so let me tell you: I f you don't get the difference, please go out and have a megaphone discussion about gun bans with the walls. They'll prove you right.

(3) and well, THAT's the problem we're talking about. Schools everywhere in the world are gun free zones, everywhere, no matter what kind of weapon density. But you want to transform your schools into fortresses, because you can't handle your mentally ill, despite EVERY country got people like that, EVERY country faces the same problem.

(4) Guns are made for killing. Until it's no special sports weapon, it's never designed for anything else. Despite the fact you use it for sports. I strongly doubt 300m weapons in the US are bought for sports use.

 

[richard_daily]

What do you want to tell me? That all the 300m guns are for sports? Why all the threads, all the discussions, all the 2nd amendment paranoia?

No, that's not what he said, go back and read it more carefully.

 

[richard_daily]

(4) Guns are made for killing. Until it's no special sports weapon, it's never designed for anything else. Despite the fact you use it for sports. I strongly doubt 300m weapons in the US are bought for sports use.

This is factually inaccurate.

If guns were only made for killing, and there are 300m guns in the US, we wouldn't have a population left.

That is, unless they're REALLY ineffective at killing, at which case, it's not an issue, right?

 

[imalickin]

It's hilarious that whatever is called a "discussion" on this issue completely entails the pros and/or cons on actually infringing - in some way - the right to bear arms...

...when the 2nd was intentionally Amended to the Constitution to specifically forbid that very act.

The latent disingenuousness of individual liberty-hating socialists and statists can be no more overt on this issue:

Denying they aim to infringe on an individual's inherent right to bear arms...

...while proposing to do exactly that.

I will post it one more time:

The only legal avenue to infringe on any law-abiding citizens' unalienable right to bear arms...

...is to ratify a 28th Amendment to repeal the simple intent of the Constitutional Law of the 2nd - first.

The natural lawlessness of socialists and statists to infringe on the right to bear arms for any/all law-abiding Americans...

...is revealed in their intentional refusal to follow the Law in their tyrannical attempt.

Why aren't you socialists and statists campaigning for the only solution to what you emotionally proclaim is the problem: law-abiding Americans' free access to arms, and their unabashed patriotism in championing the unalienable right to bear them?

Socialists and statists honestly admitting they want the 2nd repealed and openly - legally - working toward that goal...

...is as utopian a hope as socialists and statists admitting publicly they're socialists and statists in the first place.

Friggin' disingenuous pieces of sh!t...

Obama will do this with an executive order.