Someone want to explain "Social Justice" to me?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

We'd get closer to social justice if folks made the best of their opportunities and resources. Every kid in America oughta graduate school, literate with a basic skill set to use for employment.

As it is people trap themselves with babies and no education and addictions.

 

[julybaby04]

What about individuals that are deprived of this worldview due to their economic and social upbringing?

Children can be easily damaged.

If they grow in a world where education, opportunity and self worth are not valued the probability of success diminishes.

How to avoid a "lack of caring" attitude that is ingrained into individuals from the crib and is no fault of their own?

I will agree that those who are the most innocent among us are the children. Everyone is born into the family they get.....or in case of adoption, the family they are placed with.

Agree again, some are not brought up where there is caring about education or self worth, etc. Yes, those are in a tough situation.

But even those (speaking of those only in the US)....those kids go to school as well. If their parents don't care, chances are they will not either.

But how can you possibly legislate self worth? The US promises the chance for opportunity....the chance for a "chance". What a person does with that is truly up to them.

Yes, things happen along the way and people fall on hard times. There would hopefully be people in their lives to lend them a helping hand to help them through the rough spot. However, lending help to a forever outstretched hand is not the way either.

I think what most who feel all we need is "fairness" and "equality" forget is that those who have made whatever life for themselves that they have, will not so easily give everything they have worked for, for their families, so that all are equal.

Life is not equal...***** is not fair. Never has been and never will be. Perhaps teaching those innocent children self worth and the value of hard work and not expecting handouts would be a good thing to teach in schools. But, of course, public schools are run by the government and the government prefers being the source for everything from cradle to grave for each person.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nobody ever brings up equal distribution aside from right wing morons.

 

[Ishmael]

In a pure capitalist USA, George W Bush & Obama would have taken the advice of those around them who said they should have let the economic meltdown run its natural course.

That is, those businesses that couldn't survive should have been left to let the marketplace sort out through bankruptcy, acquisition, etc.

But it was decided that to let pure market capitalism sort it out would be unjust to American Society as a whole and in particular to various key clusters of participants in the US Economy:

• shareholders in affected companies
• brokers and brokerages
• Wall Street
• home owners
• employees of affected companies

...and so on.

So, you could use the Stimulus Package as an example of an exercise in Social Justice.

You could also say the same about the Womens Rights movement in the USA 30 years ago.

Or Affirmative Action.

And arguably, FDR's New Deal, the pillars of which became the foundation of the just society which have defined Post Depression social policy in the USA.

All are good examples of Social Justice at work.

As with The Law of Equity and The Law of Natural Justice, Social Justice is not Codified the way The Uniform Commercial Code and most other laws are made "definitive".

Because Social Justice, Natural Law and Equity all flex, bend and morph with changes to society and the social contract, they will by definition elude Ishmael's "request" for a B&W Definition.

Of course, Ishmael knows this (or ought to), which is why as a right leaning free market capitalist by nature, he will sit back and swat those away who try to "define" something that is by definition, fluid in nature.

To those who actually understand the role of social justice in a free market economy, Ish is making a fool of himself by lording over the dummies who don't.

Which is why this is an excellent thread...Ish gets to amuse himself with the great unwashed... and the rest of us get to have a giggle at his expense.

*chuckle* I'm making a fool of myself watching those that don't have a clue try to define the phrase?

I like your GM/Chrysler example of the use of social justice. Three centuries of contract law flushed down the toilet for the benefit of the unions and Wall Street. There certainly has been NO benefit re. the US taxpayer. And you and I both know that the resultant outcome of protected reorganization of those companies would have been the same as the government (taxpayer) subsidized protected reorganization that actually did take place. That whole affair had nothing to do with 'social justice', it was all about political power plays.

But in a funny sort of way you are getting to the nut of the issue in your own way there Lance. You too have dived into the pool of equating 'social justice' with economic metrics and there is no end to the mischief that can be created when you go there. Shit, even the Chinese have abandoned that notion, just as they've abandoned 'equality of outcome.'

And in the end that's what I think a great many of these 'social justice' touting morons are actually after equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity. While I can get on board with the latter, the former is a Communist ideologues pipe dream. It brings up a whole host of moral dilemmas driven by economic matters. For example let's take the 'living wage' issue, another amorphous non-entity if there ever was one. A man with a wife and two children and a single woman have the same job at the same rate of pay. In the interests of 'social justice' shouldn't the man make considerably more than the single woman based on the need to support three dependents? And if that is true, then where does that leave us on the concept of equal pay for equal work?

Government can be an instrument to remove obstacles to opportunity. But outcomes are a result of individual decisions. And the only way I can see that we can even begin to guarantee equality of outcomes is to either severally restrict, or eliminate, the freedom of individual choice. To so narrowly circumscribe the decisions allowed to the individual that 'bad choices', bad in the eyes of some government bureaucrat anyway, are eliminated from the individuals range of options.

Ishmael

 

[rosco rathbone]

It's a term from the left wing of Catholicism, the kind of priests who turn up dead in death squad territory.

 

[julybaby04]

Nobody ever brings up equal distribution aside from right wing morons.

Seriously?

Everything the democrats want begins with taking from the rich and giving to the poor..... that sums up equal distribution.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Seriously?

Everything the democrats want begins with taking from the rich and giving to the poor..... that sums up equal distribution.

No it doesn't. I know you buy into that bullshit but it's simply not true.

 

[julybaby04]

No it doesn't. I know you buy into that bullshit but it's simply not true.

And you know this how?

Because you never ever hear about taxing the 1%?......because it is never mentioned from the WH that those who have more need to pay their fair share?......because you don't have taxes being mandated on everyone so that "all" can have healthcare?

Yes, not of anything like this is happening......

....no forced fairness going on at all.......

 

[Sean Renaud]

And you know this how?

Because you never ever hear about taxing the 1%?......because it is never mentioned from the WH that those who have more need to pay their fair share?......because you don't have taxes being mandated on everyone so that "all" can have healthcare?

Yes, not of anything like this is happening......

....no forced fairness going on at all.......

Who's talking about making the top 1% poor and getting them on food stamps or assisted living? Aside from right wing retards? Taking 40% of all income OVER 250k is never going to make a millionaire into a pauper. It's simply mathmatically impossible.

All people SHOULD have health care. It's crying shame that we haven't done this already. Everybody should eat and have access to shelter. How we go about it is up to us to figure out but these things are rights. If you want to call them entitlements fine. People are entitled to those things.

Tell me about where people are trying to take from the rich to provide cars for the poor? I mean you could try to argue that buses and trains do just that but a bus is far from a luxury item. Anybody claiming an entitlement to a computer (Even though it would probably be smarter if we did just that)?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Seriously?

Everything the democrats want begins with taking from the rich and giving to the poor..... that sums up equal distribution.

Don't leave out the part where most of the wealth the rich have came from corporate welfare handed to them by the government via the poor mans hide.

You don't get to own 98% of the nations wealth b/c your product/service is just that bitchin'. You get that kind of wealth via gubbmint contract.

 

[julybaby04]

Who's talking about making the top 1% poor and getting them on food stamps or assisted living? Aside from right wing retards? Taking 40% of all income OVER 250k is never going to make a millionaire into a pauper. It's simply mathmatically impossible.

All people SHOULD have health care. It's crying shame that we haven't done this already. Everybody should eat and have access to shelter. How we go about it is up to us to figure out but these things are rights. If you want to call them entitlements fine. People are entitled to those things.

Tell me about where people are trying to take from the rich to provide cars for the poor? I mean you could try to argue that buses and trains do just that but a bus is far from a luxury item. Anybody claiming an entitlement to a computer (Even though it would probably be smarter if we did just that)?

It is so easy to sit back and judge other people's lives. By the way $251M is not a millionaire...... but if almost all of the $250M is consumed with debt and their money is needed to pay their own debt, then yes, it might just make them paupers......you just really never know the financial state of anyone.....large income or small. It is just absurd that just because someone makes more money that they just have it lying around to be confiscated by those who are just plain jealous....period!

Healthcare should be revamped....but those who already have it should not be punished because others do not. While on this subject......for example, people in their 20's with good jobs, etc....you know they some just choose NOT to have healthcare because they do not want the expense. It use to be a choice and maybe they were playing the odds that they would not get sick......but it was THEIR choice. Now it is a forced purchase by the freest country in the world (use to be).

As far as cars...nope.....haven't heard of that (but give them time....darn it, just not fair that some have a car and some don't, especially those that *gasp* have more than one car). Also, every heard of obama phones? Yep....these people can't seem to do anything else, but dangit....at least they can call others who are in the same boat and can complain to each other....

 

[julybaby04]

Don't leave out the part where most of the wealth the rich have came from corporate welfare handed to them by the government via the poor mans hide.

You don't get to own 98% of the nations wealth b/c your product/service is just that bitchin'. You get that kind of wealth via gubbmint contract.

And how much of the 98% of the wealth that these people own came from ....oh let's say, making movies...playing sports.....marrying the Heinz ketchup eire......being rich and wealthy because the only thing they do is have a disfunctional family on a reality show......because their family name is Kennedy.......make a music cd......keeps getting elected to a "serving" position in the senate or house for years and years.....etc.

Hmm..just how many of those do you think got their wealth from government contracts and holding down the poor guy.....?

 

[Sean Renaud]

It is so easy to sit back and judge other people's lives. By the way $251M is not a millionaire...... but if almost all of the $250M is consumed with debt and their money is needed to pay their own debt, then yes, it might just make them paupers......you just really never know the financial state of anyone.....large income or small. It is just absurd that just because someone makes more money that they just have it lying around to be confiscated by those who are just plain jealous....period!

If almost all of it is consumed with debt they are fucking morons. It still won't make them paupers. EVER. It can't. Taking away a percentage of money OVER a certain threshold cannot make a person poor. There is no possible way. I guess you can call a person who can't afford to eat jealous of those who can but fine.

Healthcare should be revamped....but those who already have it should not be punished because others do not. While on this subject......for example, people in their 20's with good jobs, etc....you know they some just choose NOT to have healthcare because they do not want the expense. It use to be a choice and maybe they were playing the odds that they would not get sick......but it was THEIR choice. Now it is a forced purchase by the freest country in the world (use to be).

Healthcare should be revamped and that's a long conversation that we need to hvae someday. Young people make bad decisions. This is a decision we are taking away from them. They don't have right to not have health insurance. Not until and unless we change the rules at the ER where if you COULD have afforded it and didn't we let you die. Got shot? Hey, you made a bet that didn't work out for you. Cancer? Sucks to be you.

As far as cars...nope.....haven't heard of that (but give them time....darn it, just not fair that some have a car and some don't, especially those that *gasp* have more than one car). Also, every heard of obama phones? Yep....these people can't seem to do anything else, but dangit....at least they can call others who are in the same boat and can complain to each other....

If they were going to they'd have done it by now. The only thing that people push for is more public transit. Also those are actually Bush phones and they are a good idea. There is no good reason NOT to do that. It's an expansion of something Ronald Reagan realized. Phones aren't luxury items today. You bash people for being lazy and then you don't want to help provide tools so they can get out and better themselves. Be honest, where do you want a poor person to be? Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring after they apply for jobs or do you want them walking the mall going store to store applying everywhere with a portable phone in their pocket because THAT is what your actually talking about. Not to mention look around the next time you leave the house. How many pay phones do you see? I know you think the poor deserve whatever happens but being stranded and unable to call for help? That's a bit harsh.

 

[Sean Renaud]

And how much of the 98% of the wealth that these people own came from ....oh let's say, making movies...playing sports.....marrying the Heinz ketchup eire......being rich and wealthy because the only thing they do is have a disfunctional family on a reality show......because their family name is Kennedy.......make a music cd......keeps getting elected to a "serving" position in the senate or house for years and years.....etc.

Hmm..just how many of those do you think got their wealth from government contracts and holding down the poor guy.....?

Your making a really good case for higher taxes. These people aren't getting rich by working harder or being smarter. Most of what you just mentioned is dumb luck.

 

[warrior queen]

How interesting that the people who talk most about the concept of 'social justice' are the ones who don't need it.
IMO, it's an abstract - a useless phrase coined by the 'haves' to make themselves feel better about not doing a damn thing for the 'have nots'.

 

[bumlicker]

the greaat senator

from mass lesbian warren has your answer its "leveling the playing field" or in other words taking money from those that work for a living and giving it to those who dont. stop whining and just hand over your money

 

[BotanyBoy]

And how much of the 98% of the wealth that these people own came from ....oh let's say, making movies...playing sports....make a music cd

Those people a upper middle class......I'm talking about the guy/gal who writes the pay check to the people you are talking about.

.marrying the Heinz ketchup eire......

Heinz Ketchup #1 customer...government.

being rich and wealthy because the only thing they do is have a disfunctional family on a reality show......because their family name is Kennedy......keeps getting elected to a "serving" position in the senate or house for years and years.....etc.

Same thing...I'm not talking about the cast of jerzy shore, I'm talking about the UBERBILLIONAIRE who owns the network conglomerate it airs on that pays everyone you are talking about's chicken shit income.

Senators and shit...rich b/c the rich people give them money to write laws to make them richer. The income they get from the gov. isn't shit...peanuts to them.

Hmm..just how many of those do you think got their wealth from government contracts and holding down the poor guy.....?

How many of them would even have a job if the gov wasn't lining the company coffers because their boss's boss's boss' boss is homies with a senator that landed them a subsidy, tax exemption or just straight cash?

I'm not saying the american dream isn't possible...some make it and do so b/c they are good at what they do and they build a killer company. But most if not all of the big dogs are sucking at the gov tit. Dollar for dollar richest people in America get the lions share of welfare. Well over 1/2 the MIC...welfare...I mean seriously how many fucking nuke subs do we need? We can sanitize the planet like 130 times over or some absurd shit like that from our comfy office chair. Our military is 10 YEARS ahead of everyone else......we don't need any more 50 billion dollar subs, F22's, 10,000 dollar hammars... etc etc...it's welfare.

 

[julybaby04]

If almost all of it is consumed with debt they are fucking morons. It still won't make them paupers. EVER. It can't. Taking away a percentage of money OVER a certain threshold cannot make a person poor. There is no possible way. I guess you can call a person who can't afford to eat jealous of those who can but fine.



Healthcare should be revamped and that's a long conversation that we need to hvae someday. Young people make bad decisions. This is a decision we are taking away from them. They don't have right to not have health insurance. Not until and unless we change the rules at the ER where if you COULD have afforded it and didn't we let you die. Got shot? Hey, you made a bet that didn't work out for you. Cancer? Sucks to be you.



If they were going to they'd have done it by now. The only thing that people push for is more public transit. Also those are actually Bush phones and they are a good idea. There is no good reason NOT to do that. It's an expansion of something Ronald Reagan realized. Phones aren't luxury items today. You bash people for being lazy and then you don't want to help provide tools so they can get out and better themselves. Be honest, where do you want a poor person to be? Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring after they apply for jobs or do you want them walking the mall going store to store applying everywhere with a portable phone in their pocket because THAT is what your actually talking about. Not to mention look around the next time you leave the house. How many pay phones do you see? I know you think the poor deserve whatever happens but being stranded and unable to call for help? That's a bit harsh.

Ok...just a bit here before I have to go (I know...you will be devastated.... )..

First, people can have very large amounts of debt whether wealthy or not. If you think people are stupid of whatever for getting into debt with large amounts of money, the same can be said for those who took out mortgages and knew they had zero way to pay for those houses. People want what they want.....the get themselves in financial trouble and then have to deal with the outcome. Taking away money through taxing to help the poor can truly have major impacts on those who may have money "on paper" but in reality are living paycheck to paycheck. To think differently is just uninformed.

I think that hospitals take care of anyone who comes through the ER...so the gun shot or whatever will be handled. The ER cannot be used for a cold or a physical.

The last bit you spoke of.......I have so many examples of how to help people....but you probably could care less of my own experiences. I will, however, share one very prime example of those obama phone people........sitting in a parking lot of a food establishment and a white van comes up. Man sits in the driver's seat. A women gets out and comes to my window to ask for money. She has in one hand a pack of cigarettes and the other is holding a cell phone. There is a "hiring" poster in the window of this establishment....but there she is begging with a phone and cigarettes. My mom smokes, and I know they are not cheap as she tells me this. I pointed out the sign in the window and she told me she had no way to get to work.....except the man in the van has been waiting the whole time.

Say what you want....but THIS is reality....and THIS is people who want something for nothing.

As you mentioned, young people need to be MADE to do things they do not want to do as they make bad decisions. As your profile says you are 29, I will say you are in that age group. You are probably making bad decisions and as you grow in age and knowledge, things that seem to matter to you right now will probably change, so we can chalk up your views to your young age.

Just remember.....this country has boasted for years and years and years the it is the home of the free. The things you seem to adhere to and believe in will make that freedom obsolete. You are a veteran, as your profile says. You served for the same freedom that thousands before you have. I would think it would mean more to you than most.

Have a wonderful evening!

 

[julybaby04]

Those people a upper middle class......I'm talking about the guy/gal who writes the pay check to the people you are talking about.




Heinz Ketchup #1 customer...government.



Same thing...I'm not talking about the cast of jerzy shore, I'm talking about the UBERBILLIONAIRE who owns the network conglomerate it airs on that pays everyone you are talking about's chicken shit income.

Senators and shit...rich b/c the rich people give them money to write laws to make them richer. The income they get from the gov. isn't shit...peanuts to them.



How many of them would even have a job if the gov wasn't lining the company coffers because their boss's boss's boss' boss is homies with a senator that landed them a subsidy, tax exemption or just straight cash?

I'm not saying the american dream isn't possible...some make it and do so b/c they are good at what they do and they build a killer company. But most if not all of the big dogs are sucking at the gov tit. Dollar for dollar richest people in America get the lions share of welfare. Well over 1/2 the MIC...welfare...I mean seriously how many fucking nuke subs do we need? We can sanitize the planet like 130 times over or some absurd shit like that from our comfy office chair. Our military is 10 YEARS ahead of everyone else......we don't need any more 50 billion dollar subs, F22's, 10,000 dollar hammars... etc etc...it's welfare.

We will have to agree to disagree.

You can't have it both ways though.....if government needs to be there to pay for everything from cradle to grave to individuals, then no one can say a word when someone fines a way to make a ton of money using the same government system.

If the government is too big, then make it smaller and there will be your social justice...for everyone.

 

[BotanyBoy]

We will have to agree to disagree.

You can't have it both ways though.....if government needs to be there to pay for everything from cradle to grave to individuals,

Where did I say government needs to be there to pay for life?

then no one can say a word when someone fines a way to make a ton of money using the same government system.

Doesn't change the fact that they are using the government to fuck the citizenry...or that you obviously politically support those who engage in such practices.

If the government is too big, then make it smaller and there will be your social justice...for everyone.

I agree...gov should maintain equality and order....set and enforce the rules of the game, not decide who the winner of the game is going to be.

 

[RobDownSouth]

How very bootstrappy of you.

I'll ask you nicely once again, how much does your family receive in Social Security Survivor benefits each month?

Paging Mrs. JulyBaby04!

I'm not asking for an exact amount....round it off to the nearest $100. Thanks!

 

[julybaby04]

Where did I say government needs to be there to pay for life?


....What do you think welfare entitlements are and what do you think they do? Most certainly do not inspire anyone to get up and get to work and take care of themselves.

Doesn't change the fact that they are using the government to fuck the citizenry...or that you obviously politically support those who engage in such practices.

I support a government that gets out of the way!!


I agree...gov should maintain equality and order....set and enforce the rules of the game, not decide who the winner of the game is going to be.

...and this last part is what they are doing. They have decided (the dems) that those with more just cannot have it.....and those that do not are entitled to it because life needs to be more fair.

 

[Sean Renaud]

...and this last part is what they are doing. They have decided (the dems) that those with more just cannot have it.....and those that do not are entitled to it because life needs to be more fair.

If that's they're goal they're doing a terrible terrible job of it. I do love how the right in this country has become so fucking warped that fair may as well be the "f" word that's not spoken in polite company.

 

[BotanyBoy]

....What do you think welfare entitlements are and what do you think they do? Most certainly do not inspire anyone to get up and get to work and take care of themselves.

I think a gov contract to the US army for 50 dollar each rolls of toilet paper is welfare....I think medicare paying 2x market value for meds is welfare.

I think it allows those privileged to be getting that corporate welfare an entirely unfair advantage over the majority of toilet paper factories, pharmaceuticals etc.

GM should have gone down in fucking flames...I think Ford, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan allllllllll got FUCKED royally when GM was bailed out, it was downright unethical for our gov to do so. I also think the military spending on piles of shit we are never going to use and don't need is welfare too. We have the most, the biggest and the baddest toys on the planet and we are fucking broke because of it....at this point it's 100x overkill and superfluous, unnecessary spending at an astronomical rate.

I support a government that gets out of the way!!

So why in the fuck do you support the GOP? They aren't about limited gov any more than Obama is.

And a fucking Romney supporter? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA If what you say is true you should do your homework next time b/c you should have voted for the guy who ousted Romney for the corporatist welfare monkey/pro big gov intrusion shmuck he is repeatedly on national TV. He cornered Romney & Perry both like a couple of fucking bitches damn near every debate...
http://www.usgo.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012.08.26_Ron-Paul.jpg

...and this last part is what they are doing.

You are either retarded or willfully blind as you thump your tribal drum.

 

[julybaby04]

I think a gov contract to the US army for 50 dollar each rolls of toilet paper is welfare....I think medicare paying 2x market value for meds is welfare.

I think it allows those privileged to be getting that corporate welfare an entirely unfair advantage over the majority of toilet paper factories, pharmaceuticals etc.

GM should have gone down in fucking flames...I think Ford, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan allllllllll got FUCKED royally when GM was bailed out, it was downright unethical for our gov to do so. I also think the military spending on piles of shit we are never going to use and don't need is welfare too. We have the most, the biggest and the baddest toys on the planet and we are fucking broke because of it....at this point it's 100x overkill and superfluous, unnecessary spending at an astronomical rate.



So why in the fuck do you support the GOP? They aren't about limited gov any more than Obama is.

And a fucking Romney supporter? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA If what you say is true you should do your homework next time b/c you should have voted for the guy who ousted Romney for the corporatist welfare monkey/pro big gov intrusion shmuck he is repeatedly on national TV. He cornered Romney & Perry both like a couple of fucking bitches damn near every debate...
http://www.usgo.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2012.08.26_Ron-Paul.jpg



You are either retarded or willfully blind as you thump your tribal drum.

It is always interesting to see how long it takes someone to start cussing of calling me names....just because I believe differently then them. There are always two sides and when those on the other run out of anything worth saying, the anger shows itself.

.......so much for the party of tolerance that you support....