How does "Topping/Bottoming" differ from BDSM?

[Azalea]

I am totally inexperienced here, so maybe that's a stupid question. But I just saw something in another thread that suggested the two were different. I thought the Dom/Domme was the "Topper," so to speak, and the sub was the "Bottomer."

Please don't laugh at me. My ignorance and curiosity are both boundless.

 

[CutieMouse]

It's kind of a degrees of power thing. A simplified version of the way I've seen it explained in books like The New Topping Book & The New Bottoming Book, is thus -

Top - person who has control under agreed upon parameters for the length of a scene/etc
Bottom - person who gives up control under agreed upon parameters for the length of a scene/etc

You can be a service top (offering rope bondage, flogging, etc for the enjoyment of the bottom), have a per-negotiated scene in a public dungeon with someone you met at a munch, or just enjoy kinky stuff without all the label drama - focusing on the activity, instead of angsty labels.

Dominant - person who has control under more expansive (agreed upon) parameters, usually involving some degree of relationship
Submissive - person who gives up control under more expansive (agreed upon) parameters, usually involving some degree of relationship

Or, my shorthand definition - "Submissives, submit." In my opinion, the Dominant/submissive labels get a little more gray area/emotional with people, than Top/bottom.

Master - Someone who takes control under even more expansive (agreed upon) parameters, usually involving some degree of relationship
Slave - Someone who gives up control under even more expansive (agreed upon) parameters, usually involving some degree of relationship

In some circles, those using the word "Master" need to have XYZ amount of experience, mentorship, etc, and those who ID as "slave" have given up the right to say "no", etc.

Although it is kind of a continuum, Tops/bottoms are no more or less than Dominant/submissive or Master/slave, and Dominants/submissives and/or Masters/slaves are no more or less than Tops/bottoms.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hi Azalea!

here's a very recent thread in which I hold forth on the subject
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=806798&highlight=topping+bottoming

I disagree with Cutie Mouse's assertion that topping and bottoming are about control.

A top is the person who is active, the bottom is the person who is acted upon.

When two people are fucking, , for instance, the one doing the most work is the top-- regardless of who is penetrating whom. And if one person stops doing most of the work and the other takes over, the other person is now the top.

Control is a separate and parallel continuum. The passive partner might have control. Or, the active one.

 

[Azalea]

"Control is a separate and parallel continuum. The passive partner might have control. Or, the active one."

Intriguing idea......I've read a lot about how submissives often actually have the true control in a relationship, because they have the power to "safe-word" and call the activity to a halt.

Thanks both of you for your comments. Stella Omega, I will follow your link.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Control is a separate and parallel continuum. The passive partner might have control. Or, the active one."

Intriguing idea......I've read a lot about how submissives often actually have the true control in a relationship, because they have the power to "safe-word" and call the activity to a halt.

Thanks both of you for your comments. Stella Omega, I will follow your link.

Often, yes-- but not always. it depends on the parameters of the relationship.

 

[Azalea]

from your other thread, Stella:

"Now although many people are tops-- not all tops are doms. Likewise, not all bottoms are subs. Many people know what they want to feel, and how they want to feel it, and many people get a lot of pleasure out of providing sensation for someone else. This kind of dynamic is sometimes misunderstood in current BDSM parlance, and folks who know how they want to be done are called "Bossy bottoms," or SAM's "Smart Ass Masochists" or "Pillow Princesses" or other things, but what they are is "Dominant Bottoms." Tops who want to provide what such a person wants to feel get told that they are wimps, or not really Doms-- and in fact, they are not Doms. They are "Service Tops," and IMO, that's a mighty fine and honorable position to claim. "

That totally helps me understand this better.
Now, if only my hubby weren't so absolute vanilla.....
One learns to live with the hand that's been dealt.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Now, if only my hubby weren't so absolute vanilla.....
One learns to live with the hand that's been dealt.

Unfortunately, that's a whole other problem.

But on the whole, guys are pretty good at understanding that what gets YOU off gets THEM off too--

Dan Savage has some good advice on how to talk to a partner.

Also this book might help
How To Be Kinky
And this one: When Someone You love Is Kinky
and the "new topping" and "new bottoming" books, by Dossie Easton.

 

[Azalea]

Thanks, I'll try to stretch my Amazon budget to accomodate those books soon. Although, I'll have to hide them.....probably have to put them on my computer Kindle device. He'd think I was depraved and hell-bound if he saw what I had been reading and wanting to read these days.

He's a good man......a person can stretch only so far and then they break. I just may have to continue my private wonderings......spelling intended.

 

[CutieMouse]

I disagree with Cutie Mouse's assertion that topping and bottoming are about control.

Not really my assertion... just as simplistic of an off the top of my head summary of books [New Topping Book/New Bottoming Book] I read on the subject almost 10 years ago.

I used the word "control" because it was the first thing that came to mind as a descriptor of [for example] the Top being in charge of the rope/flogger/needles/fire cupping/mind fuck/whatever. The bottom negotiates how they want the rope/flogger/needles/fire cupping/mind fuck/whatever to occur, thus giving up the illusion of control in the situation (even though the bottom has negotiated exactly what will and will not happen).

 

[Stella_Omega]

He'd think I was depraved and hell-bound if he saw what I had been reading and wanting to read these days.

Ooops! Vanilla because of religion-- that's something I would not tackle personally.

He's a good man......a person can stretch only so far and then they break. I just may have to continue my private wonderings......spelling intended.

It can be done. Its not optimal, but it isn't the worst way to go through life either.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not really my assertion... just as simplistic of an off the top of my head summary of books [New Topping Book/New Bottoming Book] I read on the subject almost 10 years ago.

I used the word "control" because it was the first thing that came to mind as a descriptor of [for example] the Top being in charge of the rope/flogger/needles/fire cupping/mind fuck/whatever. The bottom negotiates how they want the rope/flogger/needles/fire cupping/mind fuck/whatever to occur, thus giving up the illusion of control in the situation (even though the bottom has negotiated exactly what will and will not happen).

true enough!

Thing is, "control" is a loaded word in BDSM. It's a sexy word, but a loaded one.

As I went on to say;

A top is the person who is active, the bottom is the person who is acted upon.

When two people are fucking, for instance, the one doing the most work is the top-- regardless of who is penetrating whom. And if one person stops doing most of the work and the other takes over, the other person is now the top.

Control is a separate and parallel continuum. The passive partner might have control. Or, the active one.

 

[Azalea]

"Ooops! Vanilla because of religion-- that's something I would not tackle personally. "

You see the problem.......he would throw a fit if he saw Literotica's URL's on my laptop. I am afraid I have to be furtive about my forays into this world. That's one reason I've stayed away for so many years since my last postings. But reading Fifty Shades (hangs head in shame) got me going again.

I myself struggle with the morality of the whole thing. I was raised in a very sexually repressive environment, but have always had a vivid, highly internal sexual life dominated by fantasy and wishing. Part of me wants to jump off a cliff and see if I can fly, while the other part is tugging me away from the edge, prompting me to see anything but vanilla monogamy as wrong. My very psyche/soul is torn.

If you look up Azalea's old threads, and go back enough pages, you will find that there was a time when I was writing role-play stories with several partners. I thhink I had 6 going all at once for a time. They were trending towards BDSM when I suddenly stopped and vanished. I scared myself.

Some of them were darn good, if I say so myself....
But I can't do that any more.

 

[Azalea]

http://forum.literotica.com/search.php?searchid=22238334
List of threads started by me years ago......"Masked Man of Her Dreams" is the story that scared me off because it became too intense.

 

[Rikki_13]

http://forum.literotica.com/search.php?searchid=22238334
List of threads started by me years ago......"Masked Man of Her Dreams" is the story that scared me off because it became too intense.

I think some of my stories have gotten intense and I wonder where my explorations will lead me. I think some things that have happened to me in the last 7 months has pushed me to explore even further than what I ever would have before in an effort to find some control or balance in my life.

I think it may be a question of how long you want to live a vanilla existence and deny yourself from exploring this part of yourself.

I am going to go read the story, I always love to find new erotic fiction.

 

[CutieMouse]

I myself struggle with the morality of the whole thing. I was raised in a very sexually repressive environment, but have always had a vivid, highly internal sexual life dominated by fantasy and wishing. Part of me wants to jump off a cliff and see if I can fly, while the other part is tugging me away from the edge, prompting me to see anything but vanilla monogamy as wrong. My very psyche/soul is torn.

Cheating is morally wrong [according to most religions/social mores etc]. If you're going behind your husband's back and engaging others in a sexual way... probably not the best idea.

However, how is it morally wrong to have a healthy, active, interesting sex life inside a loving [monogamous] relationship?

 

[Azalea]

Cutie Mouse, you hit the nail on the head......the role-play writing with partners began to take on a cheating feel. That's a huge part of why I stopped, beside the hard direction I felt my writing was going in.

I think it's going to become a challenge for me to dream up ways to add spice to our vanilla without scaring him. I've been faithful to him for 40 years - yes, I am that old - and it's going to stay that way. He's my only sexual partner, ever, in fact.

 

[Azalea]

Rikki, thanks! Let me know what you think.

 

[Rikki_13]

Rikki, thanks! Let me know what you think.

I liked the story. I think it is a fantasy that many of us have. To not be in charge to be at the mercy of someone else and not to have any say in what happens to us. I think we find that situation to be exciting because we do not know what happens next. I think when we feel trapped in the mundane blandness of a vanilla sex life that we start to have these type of fantasies more and more because we yearn for the different and unexpected.

 

[Azalea]

Thanks for reading, Rikki. When I went back over it, I couldn't believe the typos! I can't believe that was written so many years ago. I found my "Goodbye" to Literotica thread......2003. I almost cried when I read that. Gosh, so much water has flowed under this bridge.

My husband had his cancerous pancreas removed in 2003, shortly after that goodbye. (unrelated events) Since then, I have assumed an increasingly dominant role in ordering our lives. I handle all of the finances, all of the details of life. He is legally blind (just barely) and can't drive, which limits his freedom and means I bear the burden of all errands. I wonder if this constant control I have to handle is what is pushing me into viewing the role of a submissive as so attractive?

I mean, Rikki, you read and saw that the tendency was there. I've tamped it down but now it's waking up again like an uncontrollable beast inside of me. And so I find myself here again, seeking conversation with folks who understand and have the knowledge I lack.

I am grateful for the patience of you that read through and give serious thought to my comments.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Why are you handling all of those details? How did he become that incompetent? And what is he doing in return?

I think you need to get laid six ways from Sunday, to put it crudely. You want to have a whole lot of attention paid to you-- for your own sake not for anyone else's.

 

[Azalea]

He's not incompetent....it's a long story, but I've intentionally taken control of things. There are details about that which are too personal to explain, but to put it simply, I'm a control freak.

But my fondest wish is for all of that responsibility I've assumed to just life off my shoulders, for a while......for someone to just clear that away and take total care of me. My deepest needs, my deepest dreams. Someone to just.....take care of me. Because I've been the caretaker for too long.

Two years before his cancer was discovered, I experienced a renaissance.....hormonal, I guess, but I walked around horny as hell. We went at it like minks......morning, afternoon after school, night......I was insatiable and we were enjoying a sexual/emotional closeness more intense than ever in our marriage. Then, everything came to a grinding halt while we dealt with the cancer.

We lost that treasure we had found. We make love barely once every six months or so. You're right, I do need to "get laid six ways from Sunday"......and so does he. And I'm getting a glimmer of something as we have this conversation.

He may be just as bound up, just as needy as I am, but not be able to express what he wants. Maybe I need to take the lead and start serving him in surprising ways. Since his retirement, he's a stoneware potter.....maybe an offer to massage him with a scented oil to smooth out his tensions. Maybe in order to receive the mastery I want from him, I've got to initiate the service.

I suppose many of you find my reflections funny, mundane, familiar, ignorant......but this is a revelation to me. To become his servant in the bedroom, I think I need to begin the process and approach him in that way.....subtly at first.

I'm getting hot just thinking about this.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is exciting!

I bet some of the other women will have suggestions in that direction for you.

Something I've learned to suggest, is to have his testosterone levels checked. It sounds off the wall-- but f'reals...

 

[Azalea]

He has had "low-T" and had androgel prescribed for a while.....but the last check of his testosterone levels showed normal range. Still, who knows......

I feel an energy blossoming inside.....it may take a while to reach fruition, but something's about to change. I can feel it.......a change in perspective, in how I've been overthinking the concept of D/s and failing to see the forest for the trees.

 

[CutieMouse]

He's not incompetent....it's a long story, but I've intentionally taken control of things. There are details about that which are too personal to explain, but to put it simply, I'm a control freak.

But my fondest wish is for all of that responsibility I've assumed to just life off my shoulders, for a while......for someone to just clear that away and take total care of me. My deepest needs, my deepest dreams. Someone to just.....take care of me. Because I've been the caretaker for too long.

Two years before his cancer was discovered, I experienced a renaissance.....hormonal, I guess, but I walked around horny as hell. We went at it like minks......morning, afternoon after school, night......I was insatiable and we were enjoying a sexual/emotional closeness more intense than ever in our marriage. Then, everything came to a grinding halt while we dealt with the cancer.

We lost that treasure we had found. We make love barely once every six months or so. You're right, I do need to "get laid six ways from Sunday"......and so does he. And I'm getting a glimmer of something as we have this conversation.

He may be just as bound up, just as needy as I am, but not be able to express what he wants. Maybe I need to take the lead and start serving him in surprising ways. Since his retirement, he's a stoneware potter.....maybe an offer to massage him with a scented oil to smooth out his tensions. Maybe in order to receive the mastery I want from him, I've got to initiate the service.

I suppose many of you find my reflections funny, mundane, familiar, ignorant......but this is a revelation to me. To become his servant in the bedroom, I think I need to begin the process and approach him in that way.....subtly at first.

I'm getting hot just thinking about this.

I am a firm believer in expressing submission through service. The current relationship I have are with men who are not "experienced" in D/s. They like taking the lead, they are sexually open minded, etc, but I'm the first lover they've ever had who is openly submissive [in the relationship].

With one of them, I made service a "condition" of being together - if he wanted a relationship with me, he had to acknowledge my need/allow me "to do my thing" (meaning, I get to clean his house once or twice a month, usually bring him muffins or something since I'm not there to cook for him on a daily/weekly basis, and I make a point to ask him if he needs XYZ - giving him the option [power] to utilize me, or not). I wouldn't feel fully accepted without that. The interesting thing is that the longer I've been around, quietly [very happily] taking care of all sorts of little things, the more comfortable he has become with taking the lead. We move at his pace, but I openly and unashamedly serve his needs as I notice them.

The other person in my life is only around when he's in town, and it's a more casual relationship (although the other relationship is pretty laid back, too)... but again, I serve him. I work to make sure my home is a tranquil, calming place for him - clean house, fresh linens, the right essential oils in the air, fresh French bread in the oven (if I have enough warning), engaging spirit. Again - the "safer" I've made things for him to express himself, the more comfortable he has become doing so.

Granted, odds are good we will never have the whole "best selling erotica novel of 2012" BDSM relationship... but I'm not interested in having that. My goal has always been a loving, supportive relationship where everyone involved gets to be true to themselves - meaning they each get to be as dominant as they're comfortable with, and I get to be as submissive as I'm comfortable with. If anyone needs something they're not getting, we talk about it and sort things out.

It doesn't always work out that way [god knows I'm dammed lucky right now, and it's taken almost 10 years to get here], but sometimes, occasionally, if you tilt your head and look at things without the rose colored [erotica] glasses, it is possible to develop a "non-kinky" situation into a comfortable, fulfilling D/s relationship.

 

[Azalea]

"if you tilt your head and look at things without the rose colored [erotica] glasses, it is possible to develop a "non-kinky" situation into a comfortable, fulfilling D/s relationship."

Cutie Mouse, I have learned more this afternoon and evening from this conversation than I have in years of furtive searching. We danced far away from the original topic, but you all have taught me a great deal. I have a lot to think about.