an opinon about BDSM checklists

[Stella_Omega]

I want to recommend this blog entry;
http://sassbandit.dreamwidth.org/30532.html
I love me somone who has strong opinions! I think there's a lot to discuss out of this. For one thing, she points out;

Jay Wiseman's checklist refers to "the dominant" and "the submissive" throughout, as if there's always exactly one of each and their roles are fixed. (He mentions switching in the intro, with the phrasing "Any chance...?" as if he doesn't think it's likely to occur.)

And you know ME... I've always wondered how that default came about. How it got into the popular usage. Dammit Jay! You're reinforcing a problematic gestalt.

In particular, I want to talk about this;

And then, on top of all that, the checklists don't even cover the things that are most important. What you actually think is important will vary, of course, but for me the main points are:

* what are our core kinks (eg. top 3) and/or our styles of play, and are they compatible?
* how serious or intense are we about this thing we're doing? what are we looking for?
* are there any health/safety issues we need to know about or mitigate against? (including barrier protection against STIs)
* what are our respective histories of abuse/assault/other triggers, and how do we avoid problems with them?
* what areas of discomfort or anxiety do we have about our bodies or other aspects of our being/identity, and how do we manage them? (for me and my partners, this often touches on gender and body image)
* what style of communication works for us, and are there any modes of communication that we should try and avoid?

Good questions!

 

[HottieMama]

* what are our respective histories of abuse/assault/other triggers, and how do we avoid problems with them?
* what areas of discomfort or anxiety do we have about our bodies or other aspects of our being/identity, and how do we manage them? (for me and my partners, this often touches on gender and body image)

With casual play partners, these are two of the things I have the hardest time talking about. (Even with those "close" to me for that matter.) I typically get-around this by only being "open" to those types of play which do not trigger my issues in any type of way at first. As I progress with someone, I may slowly open up and explore other things.

In general though, I don't think nearly enough attention is given to playing with someone with health issues. Even something as common as diabetes can significantly impact and complicate play.

 

[Stella_Omega]

With casual play partners, these are two of the things I have the hardest time talking about. (Even with those "close" to me for that matter.) I typically get-around this by only being "open" to those types of play which do not trigger my issues in any type of way at first. As I progress with someone, I may slowly open up and explore other things.

In general though, I don't think nearly enough attention is given to playing with someone with health issues. Even something as common as diabetes can significantly impact and complicate play.

that "hard to talk about it" thing is why checklists are popular, IMO... saves people from those difficult discussions and explanations.

I wonder if we could create a new and better checklist, that provides umm... talking points.

 

[IrisAlthea]

that "hard to talk about it" thing is why checklists are popular, IMO... saves people from those difficult discussions and explanations.

I wonder if we could create a new and better checklist, that provides umm... talking points.

I think they can be a starting point for a discussion but I like the idea of a better kind of list and I think the second quote in your opening post is a good place to start.

 

[CookingDom]

Thanks for the link, very useful. I have found and lost good checklists over the years so good to have a decent resource for them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks for the link, very useful. I have found and lost good checklists over the years so good to have a decent resource for them.

haha glad to be of service.

Of course, the contention of the blogger is that they aren't all that good. What's your opinion on that, CD? (genuine question, no sarcasm intended)

 

[eastern sun]

I like the entry, thanks for sharing it.

I agree with the author - that checklists have a place in the world of BDSM novices. Just reading a list of potential activities, and testing one's desire for each, is thrilling.

I see it all over forums like this one. Posts in which simple statements of what someone wants drip with so much heart-fluttering precum viscosity, we jump all over the poster for being so transparent in their 'wank' material. We forget sometimes how thrilling it is to say what you want.

And when you don't know how to talk about what you want yet, because you don't actually know what you want yet, pornography and the checklists can be one kind of tool for discovering yourself.

But I agree with the author's criticisms of them too. Because the checklists are limited, largely dictated by the norms of the community. In my opinion, anyone serious about communicating their desires, their limits, their fantasies, etc. needs to abandon the checklists asap and start using their own language to talk to a potential partner.

 

[BiBunny]

I tend to agree with her that checklists are boring as hell and not really all that useful when it comes down to it, at least for me. I guess they're ok for looking over and maybe getting ideas from them rather than for actually filling out and taking them seriously.

Like the writer, I, too, have a whole bunch of things that I can either like or dislike, depending on which way the wind blows, the ambient temperature, or whether or not Mars is in retrograde. Even if I were inclined to sit down and go through a thousand-point checklist, the things don't really give you the chance to outline all the particulars when the answer is "it depends."

For example, when people ask me if I like spanking (and they're clearly just looking for a yes or no answer), I say no. But the truth is, most of the time I don't care to be whacked in the ass, but if it's spun the right way, and I happen to be in one of my rare moods where I'm open to it, and the other person is good at it AND knows me and my reactions well enough, then I can enjoy it.

I prefer to have conversations about that kind of thing because the nuances can be explored and discussed in ways that they can't be on a checklist. They are good for me in a way, though, because if a potential play partner started talking checklists and safewords and play parties and so forth, I'd know that we were most likely completely incompatible.

 

[YourCaptor]

Works for some, not for others.

I think they are mainly for self discovery. And possibly peeps with check list fetishes.

With so many items, I curious about the probability of two matching... but not curious enough to do the math.

 

[ravi64]

Works for some, not for others.

I think they are mainly for self discovery. And possibly peeps with check list fetishes.

With so many items, I curious about the probability of two matching... but not curious enough to do the math.

Self discovery and chemistry are the keys

 

[StrayKat]

I have no idea how it works among experienced folks, but I wonder what happened to you know talking about things?
I mean, dont you want to get to know someone at least a bit before you jump into whipping, choking, electrifying or even some boring old sex with them? Do you present every date you are asking for a dinner with a checklist of their favorite and not so favorite food? What exactly is wrong with just saying "I like <this>", "what do you think of <that>", "I would like to try <whatever>"?

I got married twice. Granted I was hardly 19 first time and stupid as they come at that age, but when I accepted to marry him it was based on discussing things and mutual agreement. True, we mostly argued about the names of our future kids, but still we agreed about living, working and many other conditions. We talked. I know some confused souls seem to think dating is all about sex or watching romantic movies and sunsets while holding hands, but when you spend some 10 hours of your free time together, talking and discussing is inevitable activity as well.
If my ex presented me with a checklist along with a marriage proposal, I would probably dump him for good (and avoid lot of bad stuff but thats another story). Same goes for my second. Talk, talk, talk. Actually chat since we spent our first 4 months online. Based on that talk I packed my things and moved to another country to be with someone I met exactly once before. That is, I believe, a bit bigger move than deciding if I am going to let him spank my ass. Without any checklists.

So what exactly is the point of checklists? To help people save the time they would spend just having a good old conversation otherwise?
But like I said, I am inexperienced. I guess there must be something in all that paper work, I just fail to see it. *shrug*

 

[tocurpussy]

are there any health/safety issues we need to know about or mitigate against? (including barrier protection against STIs)
* what are our respective histories of abuse/assault/other triggers, and how do we avoid problems with them?

Just my own opionon about it, but to me these two things here should be the very first two things that you should have information on. The first one, health and safety, is a must. What if someone is allergic to something. If you didn't know it, there could be severe consiquences out of it. And the second one ,which I have run across, is an important one to know also. The lady at the time wanted to try and learn about BDSM, however, because of things in her past, she just could not do some things because it triggered panic attacks. So like I mentioned, these two should be number 1 and 2 on the list

 

[seela]

are there any health/safety issues we need to know about or mitigate against? (including barrier protection against STIs)
* what are our respective histories of abuse/assault/other triggers, and how do we avoid problems with them?

Just my own opionon about it, but to me these two things here should be the very first two things that you should have information on. The first one, health and safety, is a must. What if someone is allergic to something. If you didn't know it, there could be severe consiquences out of it. And the second one ,which I have run across, is an important one to know also. The lady at the time wanted to try and learn about BDSM, however, because of things in her past, she just could not do some things because it triggered panic attacks. So like I mentioned, these two should be number 1 and 2 on the list

I think these things are something that needs to be discussed whether it's mentioned on a checklist or not. And it's also something that should pop into people's mind, if they're being even somewhat adult and smart about what they're going to do. Or do people simply rely on checklists and not talk with each other at all?

I've never been asked to fill out one and have never wanted to fill out one just because, so I don't know what they could or could not be used for. Still, I find it implausible that people would use checklists as their sole guide. I admit, I might be overly optimistic now, I sometimes am.

 

[CookingDom]

haha glad to be of service.

Of course, the contention of the blogger is that they aren't all that good. What's your
opinion on that, CD? (genuine question, no sarcasm intended)

I find that checklists usually have a time and place depending on how the dynamic is and and what stage Dom and sub are at. If someone is new to the lifestyle, then the extensive lists are a good way to show the sub what is out there, even if most will only actually do half the things on there. Then at the other end of the scale, if you are with an experienced submissive, he/she would know more about what they have tried, liked and not liked and the more extensive lists will perhaps remind or introduce them to things they have not seen before. I guess they aren't any different to seeing something when you're at a party or club etc and curiosity being raised, or seeing something online too.

The checklists can certainly be a conversation starter and in the past, I have used the soft limits (especially if it's something I would like to try or have experience in) as things to explore when you are both at the stage where there is a higher level of trust and understanding.

On occasion, I have had the sub pick a few of the hard limits, bearing in mind that she is agreeing to them being used as punishment, should the need arise, after all punishment should be a deterrent.

out of the lists you posted, I would say if I had to pick one it would be http://www.cepemo.com/checklist.html
This one is very similar to ones I have used before and I like the way it has a brief description of what each listed item is.

I know the checklists can seem cold, scripted and methodical but at least if you are both reading them and discussing them, you are talking about something and working towards things together, I think I would prefer that, along side sharing other articles and BDSM related items online, than reading the things alone.

There is a world of knowledge and opinions out there so it really does help if you are both reading and sharing the same things.

 

[CookingDom]

I showed a friend of mine the link too and this is what she had to say...

When I was new to the scene, I think that checklists were actually really helpful. I totally identify with what she says about 'when you're all new and you just get over-excited about everything' etc. And yet, a checklist helped me to learn a lot and to ask good questions and to understand the role of negotiation, so from my perspective they were very helpful.

Nowadays I'm not sure i'd be prepared to invest the time in them, but what she says about them being heteronormative is absolutely right - they are - it's just that - for me - that's not an issue.

I guess that, were I part of the queer community, I'd use this article as great inspiration to write a more queer-friendly, less gender-binary version of a checklist, and then encourage lots of people to click on it through google so it
started to come up as a real option for people to use, it's just that that is not my real issue, personally, and of course I'm not part of the wider community. That said, I absolutely validate ad support those who feel strongly about it

As for her thing about the scene community pushing the idea of a checklist - I have a hard time with anything that 'the community' push - because I think it's hard to take advice from a group of people on the scene, and often you need to take advice from one person whom you trust, but that's coming from someone who isn't involved in the scene, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think I would use the cepemo list to start with, and re-write it as something a little more open ended. Fewer questions, with longer answers.
And more intuitively, grouping activities and preferences by play, rather than by alphabet.

 

[YourCaptor]

I think I would use the cepemo list to start with, and re-write it as something a little more open ended. Fewer questions, with longer answers.
And more intuitively, grouping activities and preferences by play, rather than by alphabet.

You should create BDSM match .com

 

[whorehey]

An Introduction

Hello, I'm a straight dominant male who has been lurking on lit for years. I really enjoyed many of your stories and look forward to getting to know this community better.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You should create BDSM match .com

The last thing I need is another domain name on my charge account!

 

[DiscusDave]

One thing that always struck me as a good use for these, are for professinoal style gigs. Not necessarily "Top for Cash" type situations (although that definitely would work), where things need to be a little more cut and dry.

One of my friends I have met as of late is starting up a fetish website and is a photographer for another. This type of checklist almost reads like an application in that they could use it to determine what scenes an interested person would be well suited for.

I think the quick form might be good for something like being a live model or demonstrator at conferences or the like so as to quickly discern what is cool and what not. In this instance I'd say it'd be just better to be like, "X, Y, and Z is all I will do today," as oposed to being vague with the "it depends" columns.

They are also good for sparking ideas, or bringing some type of framework to a want/fantasy someone may be having but can't necessarily place or even to sort of give validation if something someone is curious about is on a checklist and they were wondering if anyone else felt like they do. An example, "It's so nice when I get this tickling sensation all over me, like when I have a number of small insects crawling on me.... oh wow!! Look here, it says that known as formicophilia! I had no idea other people liked that."

I can see how relying solely on these can make it seem like a never ending search to find the square whole for the square block, so to speak, but a bit more information can be helpful.

 

[geekmaster24]

Thanks for the list, Stella. I too have found a lost many checklists.

My ideas on checklists flip flop so much I get whip lash sometimes. They are useful to see how someone would judge a kink at first glance. The real problem with them though is that I have discovered that what people see at first glance is very different from what they see after they have tried it.

Just thought I would say my two cents.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks for the list, Stella. I too have found a lost many checklists.

My ideas on checklists flip flop so much I get whip lash sometimes. They are useful to see how someone would judge a kink at first glance. The real problem with them though is that I have discovered that what people see at first glance is very different from what they see after they have tried it.

Just thought I would say my two cents.

hah yeah, there's always that!