Responsibility

[seela]

I'm having a horrid flu and I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here, but please bear with me.

Not too long ago we had a person in our midst (~smile~), who maintained that the dominant party has the responsibility for making only good decisions and wise choices. I don't see that being plausible in real life, but I've recently run into more than one submissive type people, who have brought up very similar thematics. They were also of the opinion, that if the PYL screws up, he/she is the one that has to deal with the aftermath, because it was his/her decision in the first place.

The ones I talked with didn't feel they had much responsibility in the relationship other than to obey, because they had the PYL looking out for them. Similarly, they believed that their PYL has the responsibility and capability to make them happy and satisfied.
So what do you think?

Is PYL responsible for the dynamic of the relationship as a whole? Ie. should PYL be holding the reigns and make sure pyl stays in line?

Is pyl responsible for dealing with the results of PYL's decisions? Is there a difference between, say, a scene going awry vs. making poor financial decisions?

Is it PYL's responsibility to make sure pyl is happy and content?

Do you see any differences on the bedroom-only - TPE M/s scale or are these questions that are always relationship specific?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Maybe I'm odd, but I think in any relationship - PE, TPE, vanilla - that's going to survive, it has to be a partnership. One party or the other might take *more* responsibility in various areas, but the relationship as a whole, IMNSHO, needs to be between partners who *over the whole* take approximately equal areas of responsibility.

 

[cromsgirl]

Agreed

First and foremost it is a relationship. All relationships must be supported from both (or all) sides. Not to mention that if the PYL is horrible at something ( say money management) that the pyl is good at, why should the PYL do that.

 

[CutieMouse]

IMO the ones who "don't feel they had much responsibility in the relationship other than to obey, because they had the PYL looking out for them" are often walking the fine line between escapism (avoiding the realities of the universe/refusing to be a fully functioning adult), and submission.

 

[KoPilot]

The idea of the "I shouldn't have to do anything but follow orders"/"zero responsibility" pyl bugs me aside from inevitable outside world implications. The entire weight of everything can't be placed on the PYL's shoulders alone... if they're not in it together, then what are they?

 

[the captians wench]

Maybe I'm odd, but I think in any relationship - PE, TPE, vanilla - that's going to survive, it has to be a partnership. One party or the other might take *more* responsibility in various areas, but the relationship as a whole, IMNSHO, needs to be between partners who *over the whole* take approximately equal areas of responsibility.

I agree with this, except that I don't believe a partnership is 50/50, I believe it takes 100/100. Both partners have to take full responcibility for the relationship. It works more effeciently if both people put all of themselves into it, rather than just half.

I know SW you didn't list numbers, but a lot of people think partnership means 50/50.

 

[neci]

i remember a diagram from a psych class on relationships.

when it comes to relationships, both parties need to put in 100% in order to get a 100% return.

1 x 1 = 1

1 x .5= .5

.5 x .5 = .25

1 x 0 = 0

 

[chy_girl]

Maybe I'm odd, but I think in any relationship - PE, TPE, vanilla - that's going to survive, it has to be a partnership. One party or the other might take *more* responsibility in various areas, but the relationship as a whole, IMNSHO, needs to be between partners who *over the whole* take approximately equal areas of responsibility.

^That...

First and foremost it is a relationship. All relationships must be supported from both (or all) sides. Not to mention that if the PYL is horrible at something ( say money management) that the pyl is good at, why should the PYL do that.

^And that.

We're humans and perfection is far beyond any of our grasps. Action or inaction, decisions or indecision - they're all choices and, as adults, we have a personal responsible for what we do or do not do. It's part of being a grownup, IMNSHO.

 

[Ravenwind]

I agree with this, except that I don't believe a partnership is 50/50, I believe it takes 100/100. Both partners have to take full responcibility for the relationship. It works more effeciently if both people put all of themselves into it, rather than just half.

QFT. I submit to my Husband, but in my submission, I give 100% to make things work- I give him my all to make him happy, to do what he asks, etc., and he gives 100% to make me happy, to provide for me, etc.

I couldn't balance a checkbook if my life depended on it, and he refuses to do the shopping even if his life depended on it. So, I have relinquished my right to use money at my discretion (a positive, in my book), in exchange for being the one who does the shopping (a negative, but not an intolerable one). Conversely, he makes me do the shopping (a positive, in his book), in exchange for being the one who takes care of the bills (a negative, but not an intolerable one). He realizes it is better for the family that he takes care of the bills (so we don't face late fees or overdrafts or whatever), and that I do the shopping (so he doesn't go on a rampage about how crowded it was or something ^_^).

His wisdom isn't 100% perfect, but I agree with him on something like that- it makes life easier for both of us. For when his wisdom *does* fail, that's when he looks to me for my opinion... I serve him, so that means he has full access to "the stuff inside my brain", including my thought processes... if he cannot find the answer to something, it is my place to provide it. And if we're *both* wrong, we're *both* responsible.

As for happiness, I find that to be an endless feedback loop... if he makes me happy, I am able to make him happier, who in turn, makes me even happier. When I am sad, he is unable to find happiness in my sadness, so he's going to want to make me happy, so I can make him happy. When one makes the other happy, that happiness goes back to the first person. So, it's not just the one's responsibility, it's both's, imho.

 

[seela]

IMO the ones who "don't feel they had much responsibility in the relationship other than to obey, because they had the PYL looking out for them" are often walking the fine line between escapism (avoiding the realities of the universe/refusing to be a fully functioning adult), and submission.

I often get the same feeling from talking with people like that. And I was surprised, because none of the people I talked with were exactly wet behind their ears anymore, as they were in their late 30's, early 40's.

I guess it was a case of newly found submissiveness making them all starry-eyed.

I also agree with the rest of the posters about relationships being a mutual endeavour.

But how about the other questions? What do you think are pyl's responsibilities if PYL makes bad decisions? Should we expect higher moral or higher skill sets from the dominants, because they're the ones making decisions?

And is it PYL's responsibility to make sure pyl is happy or is general happiness something in which it's every (wo)man for themselves?

 

[Emerald_Lilly]

Maybe I'm odd ...

*giggles* Sir_Winston, i am so sorry ... but starting with this phrase brings out the brat in me .....

I'm having a horrid flu and I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here, but please bear with me.

Is pyl responsible for dealing with the results of PYL's decisions? Is there a difference between, say, a scene going awry vs. making poor financial decisions?

Is it PYL's responsibility to make sure pyl is happy and content?

regardless of the dynamic of the relationship, i believe fiercely in personal responsibility. ultimately everyone is responsible for themselves - their physical, emotional, financial, sexual well-being. i have many strengths and gifts that i bring to a relationship (power exchange or otherwise) and just because i have submitted to someone does not mean that i let my own judgement, intelligence, etc go out the window.

any relationship is a give-and-take that must be built on trust and open-communication. Speaking only for myself:
1. submitting to another does not mean that i release all responsibility to him/her; i will remain in a D/s relationship with someone if the relationship makes me happy and content overall ... no relationship will make me happy/content at all times ... but am i happy with the overall dynamic of the relationship and my role in that? If not, then i need to tell my PYL and have a serious conversation about what is lacking for me.

2. in terms of "making sure the pyl stays in line" .... i am not the type of pyl who misbehaves to force my PYL's hand into handling me .... and i don't understand those who do .... just not my thing. yes, i expect my PYL to enforce rules and expectations and to help me learn to make necessary changes, but it is even more my responsibility to honestly attempt to behave as expected.

3. any consequences of decisions of my PYL rest with both of us. but then again, my relationships allow for both of us input in what needs to happen in whatever situation .... i won't submit to someone who doesnt want my input into situations and i won't submit to someone who doesn't have good judgement since i will yield happily to his/her decision ... but of course life happens to all of us and it is the role of both of us to handle issues that arise.

very interesting questions seela!

 

[Emerald_Lilly]

His wisdom isn't 100% perfect, but I agree with him on something like that- it makes life easier for both of us. For when his wisdom *does* fail, that's when he looks to me for my opinion... I serve him, so that means he has full access to "the stuff inside my brain", including my thought processes... if he cannot find the answer to something, it is my place to provide it. And if we're *both* wrong, we're *both* responsible.

Ravenwind,
I agree with everything you posted, but this part really sticks with me ... totally agree!!!

 

[ecstaticsub]

regardless of the dynamic of the relationship, i believe fiercely in personal responsibility. ultimately everyone is responsible for themselves - their physical, emotional, financial, sexual well-being. i have many strengths and gifts that i bring to a relationship (power exchange or otherwise) and just because i have submitted to someone does not mean that i let my own judgement, intelligence, etc go out the window.

any relationship is a give-and-take that must be built on trust and open-communication. Speaking only for myself:
1. submitting to another does not mean that i release all responsibility to him/her; i will remain in a D/s relationship with someone if the relationship makes me happy and content overall ... no relationship will make me happy/content at all times ... but am i happy with the overall dynamic of the relationship and my role in that? If not, then i need to tell my PYL and have a serious conversation about what is lacking for me.

2. in terms of "making sure the pyl stays in line" .... i am not the type of pyl who misbehaves to force my PYL's hand into handling me .... and i don't understand those who do .... just not my thing. yes, i expect my PYL to enforce rules and expectations and to help me learn to make necessary changes, but it is even more my responsibility to honestly attempt to behave as expected.

3. any consequences of decisions of my PYL rest with both of us. but then again, my relationships allow for both of us input in what needs to happen in whatever situation .... i won't submit to someone who doesnt want my input into situations and i won't submit to someone who doesn't have good judgement since i will yield happily to his/her decision ... but of course life happens to all of us and it is the role of both of us to handle issues that arise.

very interesting questions seela!

Great post,especially the bolded part

I often get the same feeling from talking with people like that. And I was surprised, because none of the people I talked with were exactly wet behind their ears anymore, as they were in their late 30's, early 40's.

I guess it was a case of newly found submissiveness making them all starry-eyed.

I also agree with the rest of the posters about relationships being a mutual endeavour.

But how about the other questions? What do you think are pyl's responsibilities if PYL makes bad decisions? Should we expect higher moral or higher skill sets from the dominants, because they're the ones making decisions?

And is it PYL's responsibility to make sure pyl is happy or is general happiness something in which it's every (wo)man for themselves?

My responsibility is to be an adult, to realize that I am ultimately responsible for my own actions and my own happiness.

I also believe that I have a responsibility to respectfully communicate with my PYL when his demands are not in my best interest. PYLs are not gods, not all-knowing perfect beings. They have moods, bad days, sometimes unrealistic expectations-- they are human. Sometimes even they need a jolt of a reality check for their own good.

My responsibility is to take care of him. Respectfully giving him this jolt is part of that.

I do expect my dominant to have some higher skills then I do, but not because he is a dominant. It is because he has about 20 years more experience in BDSM then I do. Even with that if we are doing something more risky I still take some responsibility. (i.e. I had been hinting at trying saran wrap bondage so I went out and bought a new pair of bandage scissors before the next time I saw him. He had a pair,too. But I felt I needed to make sure. I don't see that as a lack of trust just me taking responsibility for me)

 

[00Syd]

As much as I would love to have no responsibility in a relationship (ah, fantasies), the idea of that actually being the case is absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe it works for other people, but I don't know... It just doesn't seem like a feasible way to do things.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm a "buck stops here" kind of guy. If I'm in charge, and I make a decision, and a person trusts my judgment and follows through accordingly, then I consider myself responsible if things go awry.

But that doesn't mean I consider the follower's role to be devoid of responsibility of any kind, or that I'm attracted to escapists, incompetents, or ninnies.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm having a horrid flu and I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here, but please bear with me.

Not too long ago we had a person in our midst (~smile~), who maintained that the dominant party has the responsibility for making only good decisions and wise choices. I don't see that being plausible in real life, but I've recently run into more than one submissive type people, who have brought up very similar thematics. They were also of the opinion, that if the PYL screws up, he/she is the one that has to deal with the aftermath, because it was his/her decision in the first place.

The ones I talked with didn't feel they had much responsibility in the relationship other than to obey, because they had the PYL looking out for them. Similarly, they believed that their PYL has the responsibility and capability to make them happy and satisfied.
So what do you think?

Is PYL responsible for the dynamic of the relationship as a whole? Ie. should PYL be holding the reigns and make sure pyl stays in line?

No and no, IMO. This is pure folly. Each person should be responsible for themselves FIRST and then for whatever contract (verbal or emotional) that they've agreed to in the relationship.

Is pyl responsible for dealing with the results of PYL's decisions? Is there a difference between, say, a scene going awry vs. making poor financial decisions?

IMO, both of the parties must be responsible for dealing with any decisions made by either during the relationship, if they have feelings about or are impacted by said decisions.

Is it PYL's responsibility to make sure pyl is happy and content?

Hells to the no. You can't make another person happy, period. Should the PYL CARE, and act accordingly, yes but again, I believe it is pure folly for either party to feel entirely responsible for the emotions of the other person.

Do you see any differences on the bedroom-only - TPE M/s scale or are these questions that are always relationship specific?

IMO, these things don't change. It doesn't matter what sort of relationship you have. You are both responsible and you are both required to take care of yourself as well as each other as well as you can.

FF

 

[seela]

Thanks for the replies. Many of you raised really good points, that would suite the Ultimate Relationship Advice over on Cafe thread very well.

My question about the PYL's responsibility of keeping the pyl in line was mostly motivated by an imaginary situation, where the people are either struggling with their relationship or the PYL's going through something and can't be bothered to punish the pyl. These things happen in all long relationships and in a situation like that, IMO, the pyl is just as much responsible for keeping the dynamic going. If the submissive side of the relationship relies on the dominant side of the relationship to keep the dynamic going at all times (ie. the thing that ultimately defines the relationship are discipline and punishment), I can see the relationship or at least the dynamic hitting rock bottom, if the PYL isn't, for whichever, reason temporarily able to hold on to his side of the deal.

I, too, am a strong believer in personal responsibility. That's why it always surprises me, when someone even hints in the direction of using BDSM as a way to escape any responsibilities. The weirdest thing for me would be to expect another human being to be responsible for making me happy, which is an expectation I've run into a couple of times now. The person, with whom one is in a relationship, certainly contributes to the happiness and the other person's happiness hopefully matters to both parties, but I can't see how one would or even could be responsible for the other's general happiness.

JM wrote that he believes to be the one responsible for all decisions he makes. Do you hold higher standards to yourself when you're making decisions for another person as well instead of making decisions that only affect you? If it's not too personal, how have the person's you've been in a relationship with reacted, when you have made a bad decision?

I always thought that for me, personally, it would be difficult to deal with the situations, when his decisions haven't been the greatest and they have lead to less than desirable outcomes. But I've been surprised to notice, that instead of getting a feeling of nagging bitterness, it's sometimes been very cathartic to work through the situations he's unwittingly created by being a human and not always making the wisest of decisions.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I think I would get bored, if I had no responsibilities whatsoever.

I'd go into brainless, soulless automaton mode.

 

[JMohegan]

JM wrote that he believes to be the one responsible for all decisions he makes. Do you hold higher standards to yourself when you're making decisions for another person as well instead of making decisions that only affect you?

Of course.

If it's not too personal, how have the person's you've been in a relationship with reacted, when you have made a bad decision?

Very graciously.



On a related note, I am totally uninterested in the discipline/punishment dynamic. I know I'm not perfect, and have never expected a partner to be perfect, either. An honest mistake is just that. Honest.

My only expectation is that she keep trying. And if she doesn't, we've got problems much bigger than dirty dishes or being late for an appointment or whatever. So big that, to me, attempting to cure them with punishment would seem rather pointless.

 

[seela]

On a related note, I am totally uninterested in the discipline/punishment dynamic. I know I'm not perfect, and have never expected a partner to be perfect, either. An honest mistake is just that. Honest.

My only expectation is that she keep trying. And if she doesn't, we've got problems much bigger than dirty dishes or being late for an appointment or whatever. So big that, to me, attempting to cure them with punishment would seem rather pointless.

Thanks for answering. And the quoted bit sounds a lot like how he and I deal with our relationship.