Good Manners

[YourCaptor]

I made the term up, honestly. Accepting all would seem to be an "omni" sort of thing.

As for accepting others' opinions:
-in general terms, not all opinions are equal. It might not be a nice thing to say, but, to claim otherwise is ...too simplistic.
-from a societal standpoint: I grant you that it's hard to claim diversity if you pick and choose....but, does diversity really mean accepting all viewpoints, regardless of how...malign they are? We lock up murderers and rapists and thieves and hunt down terrorists....

Honestly, I've asked the question before...whether in this thread, or another in the BDSM forum...I dunno what the "proper" or "right" way is to deal with extreme viewpoints...but outright accepting them because they're being uttered....ain't the way.

Well here’s the thing.

And I know I’m sounding like a broken record, but this thread went all high school style interactions for too long and it’s really bothering me.

The thing is I didn’t catch OSG making any extreme suggestions. She just said how she perceives the word. That’s not an opinion on anything that has any consequence to anyone at all, that was just a picture of her little world.

So a totally inconsequential opinion like that, who gives a shit, why are we still talking about it?

And not giving a damn is probably the answer to the question on a worldly scale too.

If people would just not care about all the stupid issues we fight about and focus on the important ones, things would be better. Like those neighbors you never cared to talk too, suddenly you know their gay and trying to married, and all of a sudden everyone gives a damn cause of what exactly?

Like that rally for sanity and fear or whatever it was called. A rally for all those non extremers who never show up at rallys cause they got shit to do.

 

[teknight]

Well here’s the thing.

And I know I’m sounding like a broken record, but this thread went all high school style interactions for too long and it’s really bothering me.

The thing is I didn’t catch OSG making any extreme suggestions. She just said how she perceives the world. That’s not an opinion on anything that has any consequence to anyone at all, that was just a picture of her little world.

Look, I saw you go all valiant knight to protect OSG and her point of view and that's cool. What's more, since I don't really know her (and I hate to be talking about her in the 3rd person, since she might wind up reading this), but, it'd seem to me that people aren't replying to just what she's said in this thread (and I'll admit that the first 200 or so posts in this thread....I didn't follow to well, so I might well be talking out my ass). People are reading her statements in the context of a majority of her posts within the forum. I'm using JM quoting her as my source here, and, he might well be biased (sorry, JM, but I'm not going to do the leg work to confirm or deny that, so, it is possible you're biased), but, she's made some pretty incendiary claims in the past*, which would taint anything she's had to say in this set of exchanges.

Does anything change if you put things in this larger context (as I perceive it)?

*no such thing as marital rape; being at the whim of any and all strangers are but two examples of what I see as...highly unusual behavior.

It's 3 am, so I'm starting to doubt the ...uhh...fabric of my own posts. Maybe I'll feel more cogent in the morning...and I would have to go back to the beginning of this thread to see what's what, but that's ancient history. Regardless, extreme viewpoints aren't valid solely because they've been uttered...and their extreme nature will coerce strong reactions.

 

[JMohegan]

Look, I saw you go all valiant knight to protect OSG and her point of view and that's cool. What's more, since I don't really know her (and I hate to be talking about her in the 3rd person, since she might wind up reading this), but, it'd seem to me that people aren't replying to just what she's said in this thread (and I'll admit that the first 200 or so posts in this thread....I didn't follow to well, so I might well be talking out my ass). People are reading her statements in the context of a majority of her posts within the forum. I'm using JM quoting her as my source here, and, he might well be biased (sorry, JM, but I'm not going to do the leg work to confirm or deny that, so, it is possible you're biased), but, she's made some pretty incendiary claims in the past*, which would taint anything she's had to say in this set of exchanges.

Does anything change if you put things in this larger context (as I perceive it)?

*no such thing as marital rape; being at the whim of any and all strangers are but two examples of what I see as...highly unusual behavior.

It's 3 am, so I'm starting to doubt the ...uhh...fabric of my own posts. Maybe I'll feel more cogent in the morning...and I would have to go back to the beginning of this thread to see what's what, but that's ancient history. Regardless, extreme viewpoints aren't valid solely because they've been uttered...and their extreme nature will coerce strong reactions.

Everyone's biased in this discussion. And yes, I'm trying to put the comments on this thread in perspective.

We're talking about a mental health disorder. The inability to say no to anyone, anywhere, any time, does not make someone a bad person, or person with no value. But that disability can not be compared to alternative sexual or gender identities, because that's just not what it is. Nor is it in any way "traditional."

If such a person exists, and found a sense of worth, grounding, and acceptance in M/s, that's great. What's not so great is the fact that this person equates the disability with being a "submissive type" in the generalized D/s sense. Therein lies the root of countless drama-packed exchanges on this board.

 

[teknight]

Everyone's biased in this discussion. And yes, I'm trying to put the comments on this thread in perspective.

We're talking about a mental health disorder. The inability to say no to anyone, anywhere, any time, does not make someone a bad person, or person with no value. But that disability can not be compared to alternative sexual or gender identities, because that's just not what it is. Nor is it in any way "traditional."

If such a person exists, and found a sense of worth, grounding, and acceptance in M/s, that's great. What's not so great is the fact that this person equates the disability with being a "submissive type" in the generalized D/s sense. Therein lies the root of countless drama-packed exchanges on this board.

Honestly, I feel the same way...but I took psych, so I can't use the mental illness label that easily. Plus, when did this become the OSG thread? Mental illness or not, we're reinforcing her and her posting...

 

[Netzach]

Yea that’s pretty shity.

Not to start anything with anyone, but that does sound very much like when OSG talks about how she can’t hide her stuff, and the public can’t wait to lynch her over it. Yet nobody questions the validity of that when you say it, vs when OSG says it all these assholes pop and go, hey you volunteered.

I can’t really ID with either of you on that though. I can always move to Alaska to hide if I really needed too. Except maybe when I toss out a slap and someone takes me up on it. That’s a bad situation, but technically I can legally defend myself if it escalates. And she won’t be pressing charges.

I was more responding to the first half of your post though. I think you and I are miles apart as far as living with such things goes. So totally different set of challenges, and the second half I can't really respond to too much. I don't even know where in the world I may eventually end up and settle down.

PS. I wonder why nobody called Nets out on whining. Peculiar isn't it.

Because Netz wants to be a freak in phsysical safety and an equal employment environment, not a world in which everyone gets to watch M leashed and five paces behind saying "you go you sexy people" . OOOOOO picky!

I am pining not for a world of gay people but a world in which gay people are not treated on a spectrum of inequality ranging from death-on-sight to professional Queer Eye Minstrel Show nutless safe gay dude next door to straight women. Just allowed to do everything everyone else does as badly. The rest of the world does not nor should not have to BE queer for that to happen. They just have to chill.

Netz doesn't outwardly pine for a world in which you and all men you know are de-nutted and made into women or a world in which all osg's rise up and buttfuck their males in the ass like they *should* be or any absurd far-fetched caricature like "things I'd like."

I mean that's fine for masturbation and all, but when it's how you relate to a roomful of people it's pretty fucking fucked up. You can think whatever you want - like by marrying I should forfeit my right to have my own bank account or that the moon landing was faked and we have FEMA death camps - but your right to think these things completely unchallenged is without guarantee.

Although if I were in a world where every man thought it was his job to order at the restaurant for me when we went out, in the sense of "telling a waiter what my decision was" I have to say my world would not degenerate either. God, feminists, pick your battles.

This is why I can't stand mainstream feminism - I think the fact that boys play with toy guns is less "worrisome" than the fact that a huge percentage of boys play with real ones and sell drugs as an afterschool job.

It's hijacked by rich women for rich women and it puts all its energies into symbolic media battles.

This thread has veered from the fact that some of this stuff is small stuff. Very small.

 

[JMohegan]

Honestly, I feel the same way...but I took psych, so I can't use the mental illness label that easily. Plus, when did this become the OSG thread? Mental illness or not, we're reinforcing her and her posting...

I don't think it's an illness. More like a developmental disorder.

All threads she posts on tend to become osg threads. See my previous observation on board drama.



This doesn't really fit with the manners topic, but is germane to the discussion of feminism -

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...86164.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

It is the biggest sex-discrimination case in our history, and comes at a time when more women are serving on our highest court than ever before. But that court is dominated by a conservative bloc, so it will be very interesting to watch what happens.

 

[intothewoods]

The thing is I didn’t catch OSG making any extreme suggestions. She just said how she perceives the word. That’s not an opinion on anything that has any consequence to anyone at all, that was just a picture of her little world.

So a totally inconsequential opinion like that, who gives a shit, why are we still talking about it?

Because:

You can think whatever you want - like by marrying I should forfeit my right to have my own bank account or that the moon landing was faked and we have FEMA death camps - but your right to think these things completely unchallenged is without guarantee.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Keroin]

This thread has veered from the fact that some of this stuff is small stuff. Very small.

True.

As I mentioned waaaaaaaaaay back, in regards to the original question, if I found myself in this situation, I wouldn't be an ass about it. I wouldn't throw a hissy fit or berate the man in question. I wouldn't blog about the asshole I had dinner with. I would just, politely, order what *I* wanted, and try to have an enjoyable evening.

And then I simply wouldn't go on anymore dates with that person as I would know we weren't compatible romantically - though we might form a friendship. Easy peasy. No de-nutting, no rampant in-your-face feminism. Just, meh, that's not my thing.

 

[ownedsubgal]

If such a person exists, and found a sense of worth, grounding, and acceptance in M/s, that's great. What's not so great is the fact that this person equates the disability with being a "submissive type" in the generalized D/s sense. Therein lies the root of countless drama-packed exchanges on this board.

JMohegan, i do exist, and despite it being for some reason offensive to you, i am a submissive person. i have no earthly idea what you could you mean by "in the generalized D/s sense," of course. but i do know the definition of the word, i have a pretty good awareness of my own personality, and i understand D/s as a way of life, and for those reasons it is a place where i fit. the only place readily available to me as a modern non-religious american, though i absolutely recognize that there are various cultures and regions on this planet where being submissive (or Dominant for that matter) isn't such a terrible or remarkable thing.

you really seem to find a great deal of pleasure in painting me with the "disabled, dysfunctional" brush, in order to invalidate my opinions and viewpoints. i will admit without any shame whatsoever that i do battle a mental health disorder...major depression. it's been a sidekick most of my life.

but my submissiveness is not a disorder or dysfunction. and yes, i would define my drive to please others and extreme difficulty with rejecting others from early childhood onward as submissiveness. it is certainly not submissive in the kinky sense, but then i didn't think that kink defined such concepts. i have also known more than a few other submissive women...in the D/s lifestyle no less...with similar backgrounds. and they too have felt unaccepted by others in the lifestyle, and appreciate someone, anyone, from their side of the fence speaking up.

as for "board drama"...i hate it. if the attention isn't positive and productive, i don't want it. perhaps if yourself and certain others did not react with such disgust and vitriol every time i attempted to express a thought or opinion, then productive discussion could rule the day.

 

[Netzach]

I've always wanted things to go my way. I like being in control of things. I remember being like this since I was 3.

If I were to come on here and explain that because of this, I'm writing from jail after assaulting a police officer, I beat up a desk clerk with his phone at a hotel, and I flunked out of school because I would not tolerate the dictates of sitting at a desk quietly since kindergarten - would people rightfully assert that I had a fucking problem? Would my "inherent Dominance" be discussed or a pathological inability to navigate context?

If we're saying that it's tragic that the inherently deeply submissive people have to shape themselves the eensiest to mange a culture - and that means pretty much any culture, sorry - afghanistan you're good till your man gets killed by a mortar- there is no culture in the world in which you can survive with no personal boundaries or assertions.

But the degree to which a Dominant person - ANY Dominant person - needs to figure out how to cool their jets and deal with the world is - what, exactly?

 

[ownedsubgal]

Because Netz wants to be a freak in phsysical safety and an equal employment environment, not a world in which everyone gets to watch M leashed and five paces behind saying "you go you sexy people" . OOOOOO picky!

in case for some reason that's the impression that's been given, that's not what i'm pining for either. it would be cool to live in a world where female submissiveness outside the confines of yummy sexy fun was not regarded as a disease from which one needs to be cured, or male dominance was not equated to lifetime movie-of-the-week abusive buffoonery. and on a purely selfish level, it would be nice if the world weren't full of sooo many jerks, buttholes, and psychopathic criminals who all see a submissive-natured person as a delicious target. i wish i didn't need the presence of a Master in order to feel safe just walking down the street or sitting in an office for 8 hours a day.

it brings to mind this coworker and friend of Daddy's, who happens to be gay and rather open and proud about it...a few months back he was jumped in DC late at night, while he was alone leaving a restaurant. not for any particular reason other than he looked gay to some idiots hanging around with nothing better to do than beat up a stranger. why does that kind of thing happen to people? why do people like those thug idiots even freaking exist?? and i know what you're probably thinking Netz...how can she even compare being submissive with being openly gay? well just as Daddy's coworker can't hide his gayness, making him an easy target for the scum of the earth, i can't hide my submissiveness. some people, maybe a whole lot of people...can. just as many gay men will never be jumped because their gayness doesn't pop up on the radar of ignoramuses. i wish for a world where i didn't blip anyone's radar.


but anywho you're right in that this thread is supposedly about the small stuff. isn't it weird how something so very small (like ordering for someone) can still illicit such violently negative reactions in some folks?

 

[Cattypuss]

as for "board drama"...i hate it. if the attention isn't positive and productive, i don't want it. perhaps if yourself and certain others did not react with such disgust and vitriol every time i attempted to express a thought or opinion, then productive discussion could rule the day.

So why do you post biased, judgmental, would-be inflamatory stuff like this?

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=35754712&postcount=201

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

If I were to come on here and explain that because of this, I'm writing from jail after assaulting a police officer, I beat up a desk clerk with his phone at a hotel, and I flunked out of school because I would not tolerate the dictates of sitting at a desk quietly since kindergarten - would people rightfully assert that I had a fucking problem? Would my "inherent Dominance" be discussed or a pathological inability to navigate context?

I would think people would be too busy trying to guess which celebrity/rich person you really are.

Zsa Zsa? Naomi? Who could you be?

 

[teknight]

So why do you post biased, judgmental, would-be inflamatory stuff like this?

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=35754712&postcount=201

Sounds like she hates women....
And you ejaculate? Kudos!! *Where's a thumbs up smiley when you need it?*

 

[Cattypuss]

Sounds like she hates women....
And you ejaculate? Kudos!! *Where's a thumbs up smiley when you need it?*

Just a nice short example of how osg likes to attempt to get a rise out of people by using the word "normal" in a highly inappropriate way.

 

[teknight]

in case for some reason that's the impression that's been given, that's not what i'm pining for either. it would be cool to live in a world where female submissiveness outside the confines of yummy sexy fun was not regarded as a disease from which one needs to be cured, or male dominance was not equated to lifetime movie-of-the-week abusive buffoonery. and on a purely selfish level, it would be nice if the world weren't full of sooo many jerks, buttholes, and psychopathic criminals who all see a submissive-natured person as a delicious target. i wish i didn't need the presence of a Master in order to feel safe just walking down the street or sitting in an office for 8 hours a day.

No one's said that Male Dominance is anything....everyone's referring to your specific case.
You're submissive, you can't resist any stranger, but it's their fault? BWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.

i wish for a world where i didn't blip anyone's radar.

At least for the purposes of this forum, you CHOOSE to flaunt your extreme unique nature.

You know what? ownedsubgal's going on my ignore list. Her submissiveness is making it too hard for me to control my jerky butt-holy, psycopathic tendencies, so I'm gonna do the right thing, and put her on ignore...both via the forum itself and vbulletin.

 

[teknight]

Just a nice short example of how osg likes to attempt to get a rise out of people by using the word "normal" in a highly inappropriate way.

You know what? ownedsubgal's going on my ignore list. Her submissiveness is making it too hard for me to control my jerky butt-holy, psycopathic tendencies, so I'm gonna do the right thing, and put her on ignore...both via the forum itself and vbulletin.

Not trying to dictate behavior to anyone, but feeding the trolls empowers them. I'm sure I'll miss out on a bunch of inflammatory goodness, but I'll live.

 

[00Syd]

Not trying to dictate behavior to anyone, but feeding the trolls empowers them. I'm sure I'll miss out on a bunch of inflammatory goodness, but I'll live.

Pfff. I won't. I eat this shit up. I try not to get involved, but I will gladly watch, popcorn in hand.

Mmmmm. Drama. Om nom nom nom.

 

[Cattypuss]

osg's not a troll. But she is a fascinating study in the arrogance of the self-hater.

 

[teknight]

Pfff. I won't. I eat this shit up. I try not to get involved, but I will gladly watch, popcorn in hand.

Mmmmm. Drama. Om nom nom nom.

You are not helping!
Ooooohhhh...Popcorn?!
Besides, I know the asshole psychopath inside me can't resist endless rants and weak arguments. And, you know what? Fuck that guy.....or me, as his proxy.

 

[teknight]

osg's not a troll. But she is a fascinating study in the arrogance of the self-hater.

You're 100% correct, but I'd use less...empowering language. It's not "fascinating" it's disturbing. It's reality TV, live 'n' direct, here in the BDSM forum. I don't watch that crap on TV, I won't watch it here.

 

[00Syd]

It's reality TV, live 'n' direct, here in the BDSM forum. I don't watch that crap on TV, I won't watch it here.

Elitist.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Guess the holidays do make people cranky.

Happy holidays everyone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Guess the holidays do make people cranky.

Happy holidays everyone.

it isn't the holidays that are making people angry in this thread.

I suppose it's polite to pretend so, though...

 

[teknight]

it isn't the holidays that are making people angry in this thread.

I suppose it's polite to pretend so, though...

OK. Serious question for a second. It feels to me as if when we're taught to be polite it's only as a result of some good action occurring. We're never really taught to deal with the opposite kind of behavior. We're supposed to show we're the bigger person by letting others insult us...and get away with it. I dunno if it's my id talking (Freudian type id, not identification) but why is that polite and proper?