Good Manners

[ownedsubgal]

Tough noogies, really.

Look, I've lived one half a century, and in all of that time, the core aspects of how I am have been attacked, ridiculed, and in general unaccepted by the mainstream.

The real mainstream. The mainstream that PASSES LAWS against me and mine.

Whatever you want to think, you are STILL a perfectly normative heterosexual woman. You CAN walk down the street with your master and No.

One.

Will.

Blink--

at the MAN and the WOMAN showing affection for each other.

As a matter of fact, you reap the rewards of someone else's battle-- since you two are interracial.

Fucking count your blessings. Stop whining about poor little you and how no one in the Vanilla world understands the depths of your submission.

first, i'm not the whining type, and i certainly don't feel victimized. completely misunderstood, totally unaccepted, utterly disrespected, yes, plenty...but not victimized. i'm also aware of the fact that there are many other outsiders in this world fighting their own battles. despite the fact that it concerns me directly not a whit, i care about your battle, Stella. i care because i think it should be a fundamental human right to be acknowledged and accepted for who you truly are. what confuses me is why any battle which does not mirror your own is somehow irrelevant, or "tough noogies."

and i am grateful for what freedom and privilege i'm able to have in this society. i recognize that my Master and i can kiss in public and no one is going to give a darn, and how awesome that is. on a very superficial level, there are a lot of perks and comforts just in the fact that we are, as you say, a hetero couple. the age difference may get a few funny looks at times, or result in us not being assumed to be a couple at all (like the saleswoman who told my Master last week "go on and get your daughter the boots, they look great on her!"). but really that's no big whoop.

and no, there's no law against me marrying the love of my life (well actually there is, but that's our own doing)...but the submissive aspect of my personality is defined as a mental health disorder in psych diagnostic texts, and i need only browse any gynecologist's office brochure to see relationships like mine defined as unhealthy and abusive in the worst of ways. that's big picture stuff. on little picture stuff, it would be nice just to be able to actually get to know people and make new friends without fear of being rejected due to disgust, or equally bad, legally outed due to some off sense of righteousness. you can probably relate to those fears, no?

btw, my Master and i are not interracial, not sure what gave you that idea.

 

[intothewoods]

Well, I think contests between minority groups for who has suffered the most never end well. As my (vanilla) friend likes to say, there's no olympics of pain and suffering! Of course that always makes me imagine ... what if there were...

 

[YourCaptor]

I don't think 24/7 necessitates "shock value" or "controversy" or equates to it. No one's bitching out Bandit or Homburg or tens of et als.

I'm with Keroin. I'm elated if everyone can find a slice of reality that works for them, but go cutting into mine and there's a fucking problem.

Ok maybe not 24/7 specifically, I'm trying to refer to the bit more extreme.

I think having a large degree of power exchange does carry a lot of shock value. I don't really know how to prove that. Maybe not in these parts, thanks in large part to OSG I think, but for example on fet life, you get people who have near heart attacks.

I guess that's just a take my word, kind of thing.

 

[Netzach]

I may be talking out of my ass here, but I am confident a straight black person has a hella bigger community and support system than a trans-gendered and/or gay person. apples and oranges and all that.

I'm not going out on that limb. I have no idea what it's like to be osg and she has no idea what it's like to be M. It's not a contest.

But I *do* know what I have to deal with that no heteronormative couple does and I *do* know what my lesbian friends have to deal with that I don't.

That's all I'm willing to throw out.

 

[Netzach]

Ok maybe not 24/7 specifically, I'm trying to refer to the bit more extreme.

I think having a large degree of power exchange does carry a lot of shock value. I don't really know how to prove that. Maybe not in these parts, thanks in large part to OSG I think, but for example on fet life, you get people who have near heart attacks.

I guess that's just a take my word, kind of thing.

I get what you're saying - I do forms of fetish that give people those coronaries. But honestly this impacts my life negatively or less stressfully I should say - a lot less than going to the mall and buying clothes with my partner. The option to hide into the mundane has left the building for me, drastically and within the last year. You don't know what that's like till you know.

 

[YourCaptor]

I get what you're saying - I do forms of fetish that give people those coronaries. But honestly this impacts my life negatively or less stressfully I should say - a lot less than going to the mall and buying clothes with my partner. The option to hide into the mundane has left the building for me, drastically and within the last year. You don't know what that's like till you know.

I guess it just means a lot more to peoples whos lifestyle is being reacted to vs people whos fetish is the target. As well as younger people.

That strong of a social reaction makes you reevaluate yourself. As I'm sure you know very well. I went through it, I've meet a lot of people experiencing it. People like OSG who are totally out about it, that really helps.

 

[intothewoods]

I guess it just means a lot more to peoples whos lifestyle is being reacted to vs people whos fetish is the target. As well as younger people.

That strong of a social reaction makes you reevaluate yourself. As I'm sure you know very well. I went through it, I've meet a lot of people experiencing it. People like OSG who are totally out about it, that really helps.

Well, I think it's an interesting question as to how open you should be about your power exchange. Is it accurate to say you're "closeted" if you keep that private? To me it makes sense that most couples would make most decisions together -- finances, how much couple time v. individual time is acceptable, when to serve dinner, etc. -- and each individual in the relationship would have areas of their lives in which they make their own decisions -- health care, for example. That's healthy for most people. And it's ok to spend some time reevaluating yourself if you're well outside of that norm. I'm content in a relationship where I don't call the shots, but I don't need to have the world's validation on that. I think there are times when my family can figure out that my PYL calls the shots, but I don't invite judgment on that and I don't get any. They don't need to know how we figure out our finances, for example. It's none of their business. If my husband doesn't want me to attend something, I don't need to tell friends that I'm not allowed to go. I just don't go. When I had a therapist, she never once told me that she found the D/s aspect unhealthy. It was clear that I'm happy, healthy and thriving.

 

[ownedsubgal]

also I don't think it's more fun or more easy or that certain people are "more suited" to a marginal existence because it's nice that they're strong and they can cope. I think most people have had to hammer themselves into tougher stuff to do it and it's not that fun for anybody.

true enough, and never meant to imply it's "fun" for anyone. but there are those who do seem to thrive off of adversity. and i have immense admiration for those who are able to "hammer themselves into tougher stuff," because i know i couldn't. still i don't think it makes me a whiny loser because i openly acknowledge the fact that it's tough for me.

 

[rida]

Well, I think contests between minority groups for who has suffered the most never end well. As my (vanilla) friend likes to say, there's no olympics of pain and suffering! Of course that always makes me imagine ... what if there were...

QTF and because ... I too ran with the image ...

 

[teknight]

I find it rather ironic that bullying is the outcome of a discussion on manors, and with another discussion and passive aggressive behavior not too far in the distance. And yes, I see you bullying her.

You should really try out your own advice some time. That is “If you want respect, then maybe you should try respecting other people's opinions, hmmm?”

I really think you step over the line here. It was simply totally unnecessary.

You're not honestly saying that all opinions are equally valid, are you?

And the discussion is on manners, btw. Manors belong in the architecture thread.

 

[YourCaptor]

Well, I think it's an interesting question as to how open you should be about your power exchange. Is it accurate to say you're "closeted" if you keep that private? To me it makes sense that most couples would make most decisions together -- finances, how much couple time v. individual time is acceptable, when to serve dinner, etc. -- and each individual in the relationship would have areas of their lives in which they make their own decisions -- health care, for example. That's healthy for most people. And it's ok to spend some time reevaluating yourself if you're well outside of that norm. I'm content in a relationship where I don't call the shots, but I don't need to have the world's validation on that. I think there are times when my family can figure out that my PYL calls the shots, but I don't invite judgment on that and I don't get any. They don't need to know how we figure out our finances, for example. It's none of their business. If my husband doesn't want me to attend something, I don't need to tell friends that I'm not allowed to go. I just don't go. When I had a therapist, she never once told me that she found the D/s aspect unhealthy. It was clear that I'm happy, healthy and thriving.

I mean more of an internal struggle. When you realize what you like, and also realize that society thinks people who engage in such things are bad (for lack of wanting to use a more descriptive word).

That dissidence can take quite a bit out of you to get over.

I suppose the girls in my dating range are often smack in the middle of this, so I am very aware of it.

And honestly such conflict should never be trivialized, just look at the statistics of suicide amongst gay kids. How much of that could be prevented by providing a proper model for them. Not to mention how much society could better itself with such a model.

Anyway, I think OSG provides a figure like that for this board in regard to M/s, and I think it's working. Yes she can seem a bit obtuse some times but that's just because she pours herself out all over every thread here.

I go other places and see some lame ass, very derogation statement about slaves, and I just think, someone call in OSG. And of course I don't have the will to play the role she does, so I come back here.

 

[YourCaptor]

You're not honestly saying that all opinions are equally valid, are you?

And the discussion is on manners, btw. Manors belong in the architecture thread.

WTF dude pick and AV, I don't recognize you anymore.

In the persons perspective of course its valid or they'd be psychotic. I bet even Hitler thought his shit vali... ok, he was probably psychotic.

This is that multicultural debate. The on that says those who claim to be multicultural are full of shit cause you know they aren't sitting down with neo nazies and Israeli commandos, appreciating each of their view points.

However I do think the vast majority of opinions, if expressed in moderation, who gives a shit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

completely misunderstood, totally unaccepted, utterly disrespected, yes, plenty...but not victimized.

And you don't whine, right.

Look, you make a lot of statements that turn my stomach. NOT because I hate your opinions or despise your preferences-- it's because you frame your "opinions" as global statements. It's a bad habit, if in fact you don't mean them that way.

You wish there were more acceptance for your personality type, okay. I'll accept your personality. I'll accept your disgust of lesbianism, but you can learn to frame it without making it a challenge to my identity, hmm?

still i don't think it makes me a whiny loser because i openly acknowledge the fact that it's tough for me.

yeah, actually. Not only do you constantly remind everyone of how hard it is for you, you never-- unless you've been pressed to as in this thread-- acknowledge anyone else's problems.

"Seeming" to thrive off of adversity is not the same as actually doing so. Don't make assumptions.

 

[teknight]

WTF dude pick and AV, I don't recognize you anymore.

I'm still finding myself...the hottest AV (of the day).

In the persons perspective of course its valid or they'd be psychotic. I bet even Hitler thought his shit vali... ok, he was probably psychotic.

I'm not asking about internal consistency, although a person who's schizophrenic might be able to realize that their internal thought structure isn't coherent.

This is that multicultural debate. The on that says those who claim to be multicultural are full of shit cause you know they aren't sitting down with neo nazies and Israeli commandos, appreciating each of their view points.

Multiculturalism means accepting extreme viewpoints? Since when?

However I do think the vast majority of opinions, if expressed in moderation, who gives a shit.

???

 

[ownedsubgal]

And you don't whine, right.

Look, you make a lot of statements that turn my stomach. NOT because I hate your opinions or despise your preferences-- it's because you frame your "opinions" as global statements. It's a bad habit, if in fact you don't mean them that way.

You wish there were more acceptance for your personality type, okay. I'll accept your personality. I'll accept your disgust of lesbianism, but you can learn to frame it without making it a challenge to my identity, hmm?
yeah, actually. Not only do you constantly remind everyone of how hard it is for you, you never-- unless you've been pressed to as in this thread-- acknowledge anyone else's problems.

"Seeming" to thrive off of adversity is not the same as actually doing so. Don't make assumptions.

first, we all make assumptions about certain things or people at some time or other, and it's not a crime as long as remember the fact that perception doesn't always equal reality. also, it's not as if i made some generalization...i stated that there are some people who seem (as in, at the very least they want to give the appearance of such) to thrive off of adversity.

if my opinions or beliefs read as global statements to you, that's not usually my intent so blame my typed communication skills on that. of course, there are certain things i do believe in "globally," but that is the case with everyone.

now you seem to make quite a few assumptions of your own...you assumed i was in an interracial relationship, you assumed i had the same legal rights of any other "heteronormative" person to marry my mate, and now you have assumed that i have "disgust" for lesbianism. i am disgusted by kissing/being kissed by another woman...being a boring kinsey 0, that's not so strange. why you take that as a commentary on lesbianism, i'm not sure. homosexuality doesn't offend me in the least, and from both a scientific and cultural success-of-humanity perspective, homosexuality is a necessary facet of the natural order i believe in.

 

[Stella_Omega]

first, we all make assumptions about certain things or people at some time or other, and it's not a crime as long as remember the fact that perception doesn't always equal reality. also, it's not as if i made some generalization...i stated that there are some people who seem (as in, at the very least they want to give the appearance of such) to thrive off of adversity.

Yeah, relative to your own delicate flowerness.

if my opinions or beliefs read as global statements to you, that's not usually my intent so blame my typed communication skills on that. of course, there are certain things i do believe in "globally," but that is the case with everyone.

I don't mind blaming your poor typing skills, and I would beseech you to work on those skills.

now you seem to make quite a few assumptions of your own...you assumed i was in an interracial relationship,

yeah, I somehow got that impression from something you said. Damned if I know what, now, or why!

you assumed i had the same legal rights of any other "heteronormative" person to marry my mate,

As far as heteronormativity goes, you do. If he's married, he can divorce, ditto for you.

and now you have assumed that i have "disgust" for lesbianism. i am disgusted by kissing/being kissed by another woman...being a boring kinsey 0, that's not so strange. why you take that as a commentary on lesbianism, i'm not sure.

Because you jumped into a discussion of cunnilingus to proclaim your disgust. All about how you would try to kill yourself if you had to make love to a woman.

And in my experience, people who jump into conversations to proclaim their disgust with lesbian activity-- don't do so because they don't mind lesbianism.

homosexuality doesn't offend me in the least, and from both a scientific and cultural success-of-humanity perspective, homosexuality is a necessary facet of the natural order i believe in.

Oh, good. I think the same of hets, in fact...

 

[Netzach]

I guess it just means a lot more to peoples whos lifestyle is being reacted to vs people whos fetish is the target. As well as younger people.

That strong of a social reaction makes you reevaluate yourself. As I'm sure you know very well. I went through it, I've meet a lot of people experiencing it. People like OSG who are totally out about it, that really helps.

Dude, I didn't know what it was like till I knew what it was like.

I'm kinked. I'd love to be able to express it without being considered "sick."

But this has nothing, absolutely nothing, on the gender issues in my relationship and what it means for him and for me. Not close. So things like social expectation, etiquitte, and who does what according to gender hit in ways that I can't conceal even if I want.

 

[fortheafterglow]

Obviously there are a wide range of opinions on either edge of the spectrum here. Some people feel passionately that to order for your date is courteous, or can be an interesting aspect of power exchange, while others find the entire idea revolting and offensive.

Therefore it should be obvious that ordering for someone on a first date (the assumption being that since it is a FIRST date you don't know each other very well) is not a good choice unless you've discussed it before hand. For the obvious reason that their date may take offense.

Of course, if the man in the scenario really enjoys that sort of chivalry- ordering for his date, perhaps knowing full well that some women would take offense, is maybe one way to weed out unsuitable partners? Personally I find 'tests' like that annoying from either gender, but I've known a lot of people that like to set up hoops for new friends/lovers to jump through.

I would hope that if I did something that genuinely offended someone, date or no, they would speak up about it so we could find each others intentions before walking away hurt or rejected. Being quick to offense and anger doesn't solve anything. So ladies, even if you find the idea offensive, wouldn't the act be softened by the intent, if the intent was to be courteous?

All of that said, I personally, would be annoyed if my date ordered for me without consulting me first unless we'd been together so long that they knew all my regular dishes. However, if my date asked me or otherwise knew what I wanted, I would find their ordering for me very charming. I have ordered for dates under some circumstances, such as my date having a mouthful of appetizer and I knew what they planned on getting.

 

[JMohegan]

I won't make any assumptions. I'll quote.

I can understand why someone with the experiences described below would be pissed off at the world in general.

What I can not understand is how one could possibly equate the inability to say no to anyone, any time, anywhere, with submissiveness.

The problem is not that society has advanced per the achievements of the feminist movement. The problem is human nature.

Some people are jerks, and they take advantage of the disabled. There's no society on earth that can fix that problem.

Keroin, what submissive person here is saying that they don't feel they should accept responsibility for themselves and their actions? it's not about not wanting to accept responsibility, it's about just being plain sick and tired of having to go through life either struggling, lying and masking completely who you are (because if it is not complete, it just won't work), or having to accept that people are just going to constantly screw you over, use you up, and abuse you. and of course no one will care, because after all, you "allowed" it to happen. call me an idealist, but i just long for a world where i can just step outside the door and be myself...even 60% myself...without being punished for it.

it's not so simple as acquiring "survival skills," it is not a matter of a switch that can be turned on or off, or a conscious choice one can make. before i was owned, the only thing that was ever effective for me in keeping myself safe was to pretty much avoid people: don't answer phones or doors, only venture out in public for absolute necessities (school/work/groceries), and even then be quick about it, keeping the head down and making eye contact with no one. because for me, even returning a stranger's smile can be dangerous. i know that if they demand something of me, i will not be able to refuse them. obviously, that makes for a very sad and lonely life, and not one worth living to be honest. it's not asking for too much imo to wish that life could just be a bit safer and more livable for submissive types, rather than just being told that we need to just kill all that we are and learn to be someone entirely different.

eastern sun...without question, YES, i still find the world that threatening, because for me it remains so. the particular neighborhood/area/environment doesn't seem to matter much, there is just something intangible that i constantly radiate, which reads to the general population as "victim." graceanne has mentioned several times how she used to feel she had a neon sign on her forehead...that is how i feel also, the weirdness of the situations i'd so often find myself in just could not be explained otherwise.

now i feel safe for the most part, because i go nowhere alone. still don't make eye contact unless explicitly told to, Daddy doesn't find that appropriate. but i also still have a fear of making eye contact, because it means making myself available, and i truly don't WANT to be available to all and sundry. even since being owned, the times when i have been out and about on my own (like before we lived together), more often than not i ended up getting into a car with a strange man, or giving someone money, or being tardy because i painfully stood around as some suspicious character hits on me. even out with Daddy, he will no longer even leave me alone while he goes to the restroom, because several times in the past when he has done this he returned to find me either missing (because someone took me away) or being molested by some stranger.

fortunately he has no desire to de-program me or condition me to be assertive and independent...he rather likes my vulnerability and considers it of great benefit to him. so he is willing to take on the responsibility and work of protecting me as much as possible, and taking the fall for it when he can't.

He is pleased by my inability to refuse others, or to keep myself safe. it frustrates him at times, no question...he has had to invent whole new ways of going about everyday activities, he has had to come to my rescue more times than he can count, and because he loves me so he worries and panics and his goatee goes gray. but at the same time, no matter the trouble or difficulty it may cause...yes i know it pleases him. He enjoys owning someone so submissive, and he is greatly fulfilled by the fact that he is desperately needed. He knows that if he leaves me be, that's curtains for me...i would never survive. and he is the type who gets off on that kind of power.

still, i don't exactly try to be abducted or molested or anything else. my lifelong habit when alone anyplace is to try to blend in to the walls, be silent and invisible, kind of hunched and closed in and not welcoming at all. obviously, that doesn't work for me. so then sometimes i try mimicking a "normal" person i see in the room...copying their smile, their posture, their hand motions and body language...all of these small things come naturally and without thought to most people, but i have to study and imitate them. but that doesn't work for me either, i think in the eyes i don't quite pull it off. also it makes me look approachable, and when someone approaches i have absolutely no idea what to do, it all just falls apart.

yes, i do believe that something about the way i carry myself in the general public makes me appear abnormal, odd, different...at least, to those who notice me at all, most people don't. i am highly visible to two types of people: very strong and protective people (like Daddy and any friend i've ever had in life), and people who are inclined to be users or abusers. to most anyone else, i am just wallpaper.

and yes women are included in this...most often women fall into the category of "users"...from the very early days of having me do their homework night after night, to knowing i will work their shift for them without complaint, to "borrowing" money, to using me as a free babysitting service, etc. with men it is very different, their motives are almost always sexual. with women it is much more diverse and manipulative. so, men take advantage far more often, because my life is no longer such where i interact with any women who could be of a mind to take advantage. i'm a stay-at-home slave, fairly isolated, do not drive and do not go anyplace on my own...only recently has Daddy allowed me to leave the house at all when he is not home, and even then i may only go from the front door to the mailbox and back. the moment i'm back inside, i call him. that is my life, very protected and small.

some of our experiences/patterns have been eerily similar, eastern sun. what is behind them though, i think is likely very different.

 

[00Syd]

Zing!

 

[YourCaptor]

Dude, I didn't know what it was like till I knew what it was like.

I'm kinked. I'd love to be able to express it without being considered "sick."

But this has nothing, absolutely nothing, on the gender issues in my relationship and what it means for him and for me. Not close. So things like social expectation, etiquitte, and who does what according to gender hit in ways that I can't conceal even if I want.

Yea that’s pretty shity.

Not to start anything with anyone, but that does sound very much like when OSG talks about how she can’t hide her stuff, and the public can’t wait to lynch her over it. Yet nobody questions the validity of that when you say it, vs when OSG says it all these assholes pop and go, hey you volunteered.

I can’t really ID with either of you on that though. I can always move to Alaska to hide if I really needed too. Except maybe when I toss out a slap and someone takes me up on it. That’s a bad situation, but technically I can legally defend myself if it escalates. And she won’t be pressing charges.

I was more responding to the first half of your post though. I think you and I are miles apart as far as living with such things goes. So totally different set of challenges, and the second half I can't really respond to too much. I don't even know where in the world I may eventually end up and settle down.

PS. I wonder why nobody called Nets out on whining. Peculiar isn't it.

 

[YourCaptor]

I'm still finding myself...the hottest AV (of the day).

I'm not asking about internal consistency, although a person who's schizophrenic might be able to realize that their internal thought structure isn't coherent.

Multiculturalism means accepting extreme viewpoints? Since when?

???

Umm, just making conversation.

Schizophrenics usually need drugs to realize what’s going on, without them often they perceive you as someone trying to mess with them, which you are, but they don’t connect intention. Other Schizos can’t act at all, like being in a comma. Even if they do stumble upon the proper connection, it’ll be gone just as soon.

Multiculturalism, the whole concept pretty much goes out the window once you start picking and chose which cultures you want to include. So to excluding extreme cultures such as the KKK technically means you’re no longer multicultural. Most multicultural establishments I assume just kind of hope Bin Laden doesn’t walk in the door.

 

[teknight]

Umm, just making conversation.

Schizophrenics usually need drugs to realize what’s going on, without them often they perceive you as someone trying to mess with them, which you are, but they don’t connect intention. Other Schizos can’t act at all, like being in a comma. Even if they do stumble upon the proper connection, it’ll be gone just as soon.

Multiculturalism, the whole concept pretty much goes out the window once you start picking and chose which cultures you want to include. So to excluding extreme cultures such as the KKK technically means you’re no longer multicultural. Most multicultural establishments I assume just kind of hope Bin Laden doesn’t walk in the door.

You've studied psych? Yes, some are catatonic, and yes, for psych treatment you might wanna medicate them.
It's multiculturalism, not omni-culturalism, nor self destructive behaviors.

 

[YourCaptor]

You've studied psych? Yes, some are catatonic, and yes, for psych treatment you might wanna medicate them.
It's multiculturalism, not omni-culturalism, nor self destructive behaviors.

I have never heard of omni-culturalism.

What are your thoughts on including others opinions?

 

[teknight]

I made the term up, honestly. Accepting all would seem to be an "omni" sort of thing.

As for accepting others' opinions:
-in general terms, not all opinions are equal. It might not be a nice thing to say, but, to claim otherwise is ...too simplistic.
-from a societal standpoint: I grant you that it's hard to claim diversity if you pick and choose....but, does diversity really mean accepting all viewpoints, regardless of how...malign they are? We lock up murderers and rapists and thieves and hunt down terrorists....

Honestly, I've asked the question before...whether in this thread, or another in the BDSM forum...I dunno what the "proper" or "right" way is to deal with extreme viewpoints...but outright accepting them because they're being uttered....ain't the way.