Good Manners

[00Syd]

Excellent post, especially your point about hipster douchebags as overgrown kids. See also millenials. Ok, unfair swipe - except that maybe my secret prejudice against millenials is really just against the douchebag portion. That makes me feel better about my aged gen-X self.

Heeeeeey....

(I've kind of lost track of what my generation is being called these days. Gen Y? Millenials? Or are those the kids below me? Either way, I'm going to pretend to be insulted now.)

*sulk*

 

[teknight]

Heeeeeey....

(I've kind of lost track of what my generation is being called these days. Gen Y? Millenials? Or are those the kids below me? Either way, I'm going to pretend to be insulted now.)

*sulk*

Are those what millenials are?
Damn, I thought it was the rapture crowd. :facepalm:

 

[rosco rathbone]

I also think that Rosco lives in the cultural epicenter of the ball-less hipster weenie, skewing the result somewhat .

I thought I'd been clear about that. I didn't say that men everywhere were efeeminized, just the men I'm around here in the city.

 

[00Syd]

I thought I'd been clear about that. I didn't say that men everywhere were efeeminized, just the men I'm around here in the city.

Ha, it's not like you live in Williamsburg or anything, Mr Mets Territory

 

[rosco rathbone]

Ha, it's not like you live in Williamsburg or anything, Mr Mets Territory

I did spend 6 years living there, 7 at Lafayette and Prince, and I get around. I know whereof I speak.

 

[00Syd]

I did spend 6 years living there, 7 at Lafayette and Prince, and I get around. I know whereof I speak.

Haha, I don't doubt you. Just giving you grief

 

[rosco rathbone]

Haha, I don't doubt you. Just giving you grief

:caning:

 

[where]

Well, I'm feeling the love from JMMasters

I thought Kybele was the bad one in this thread.

K and whoever else was blamed, they may have used a few harsh words, but whatever, it happens when views collided. I don’t think they got to OSG at all, in fact I think she welcomes the opportunity to potentially bridge some of these gaps.

Kybele however totally wrote off OSGs view as having any validity, accused her of being and attention seeker and proceeded to ridicule OSGs life.

That’s fucked up.

However I know OSG is an impressive little girl and this is nothing on her, just more dirt to get through. It will take a lot more to slow her down.

In case some of you haven’t recognized it, she’s here not to throw an odd fitting wrench into every discussion, she’s here to represent a part of the D/s spectrum that doesn’t get much light. I think she does a damn good job of it too. If she wasn’t here, any discussion into TPE, 24/7, M/s would instantly sink in an angry swarm of posters. She keeps the issue upfront, and the more people see it, the less of a shock value it has.

Oh, I'm bad! spank me!

I didn't write off osg's views, I did challenge them. Is that not allowed? I think that just as she can ridicule and misinterpret so-called 'vanilla' traditions, so she should have to defend her arguments. But she doesn't. she reverts to victim and hopes for a sap to provide support. Hardly representing a marginal area of bdsm.

There are other posters here who have cogently and effectively argued in defense of TPE, it's just that osg is incapable of doing so because she currently lacks the ability to do so in a convincing manner. So, far from keeping the issue 'up front' as you put it, she's actually making it more marginalised than it was before.

I thought I'd been clear about that. I didn't say that men everywhere were efeeminized, just the men I'm around here in the city.

no, you were talking about how american men were becoming effeminised, not a half dozen or so camp queens in NYC. If you recall, you were agreeing with vet git who was referring to the whole of the USA.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Well, I'm feeling the love from JMMasters




Oh, I'm bad! spank me!

I didn't write off osg's views, I did challenge them. Is that not allowed? I think that just as she can ridicule and misinterpret so-called 'vanilla' traditions, so she should have to defend her arguments. But she doesn't. she reverts to victim and hopes for a sap to provide support. Hardly representing a marginal area of bdsm.

There are other posters here who have cogently and effectively argued in defense of TPE, it's just that osg is incapable of doing so because she currently lacks the ability to do so in a convincing manner. So, far from keeping the issue 'up front' as you put it, she's actually making it more marginalised than it was before.






no, you were talking about how american men were becoming effeminised, not a half dozen or so camp queens in NYC. If you recall, you were agreeing with vet git who was referring to the whole of the USA.

At some point in there, I know I qualified my statement. "A half dozen camp queens" is silly...I'm talking about tens of thousands of efeeminized upper-middle class men.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

Heeeeeey....

(I've kind of lost track of what my generation is being called these days. Gen Y? Millenials? Or are those the kids below me? Either way, I'm going to pretend to be insulted now.)

*sulk*

Yah, it sounds like you're close to my age group. If I'm right, we're part of the diffusing from Gen Y to Millenials. We're probably not exactly either. As much as people like to claim a particular generation, the lines are so arbitrary that it's more like a wide gradient.

 

[00Syd]

Yah, it sounds like you're close to my age group. If I'm right, we're part of the diffusing from Gen Y to Millenials. We're probably not exactly either. As much as people like to claim a particular generation, the lines are so arbitrary that it's more like a wide gradient.

If you don't mind, how old are you?

I always thought I was part of Gen Y (or whatever), but then I stopped hearing people use that term, so now I don't know. Not that it matters in any huge way or anything. I was born in 1989.

 

[00Syd]

:caning:

Why don't you come into Manhattan and say that to my face

(I'm totally going to ignore that fact that I'm actually in Boston right now. Because, you know, fuck this place.)

 

[bhndblueyes88]

If you don't mind, how old are you?

I always thought I was part of Gen Y (or whatever), but then I stopped hearing people use that term, so now I don't know. Not that it matters in any huge way or anything. I was born in 1989.

I'm 22, about half way to 23. So yah, you're right about my age. We're one of those fun "gray area" age groups.

 

[KoPilot]

If you don't mind, how old are you?

I always thought I was part of Gen Y (or whatever), but then I stopped hearing people use that term, so now I don't know. Not that it matters in any huge way or anything. I was born in 1989.

Same here. There seems to be an enormous gap between people our age, and those born even a few years later, who grew up having computers (and the internet) in the house and them playing a much larger role in their childhoods.

-not sure what this tangent is about, bu t contributing anyways-

 

[Netzach]

I thought I'd been clear about that. I didn't say that men everywhere were efeeminized, just the men I'm around here in the city.

Yeah, I'm unsure if others are keeping up with the exact implication. That said, it's a small upper income mainly white boy phenom. But it's definitely larger scale than Kybele seems to be willing to acknowledge.

I also think it's infantilized not eefeminized.

 

[Netzach]

If she wasn’t here, any discussion into TPE, 24/7, M/s would instantly sink in an angry swarm of posters. She keeps the issue upfront, and the more people see it, the less of a shock value it has.

I don't think 24/7 necessitates "shock value" or "controversy" or equates to it. No one's bitching out Bandit or Homburg or tens of et als.

I'm with Keroin. I'm elated if everyone can find a slice of reality that works for them, but go cutting into mine and there's a fucking problem.

 

[intothewoods]

yes, a lot of other people on the planet don't fit in with their society at large and feel like freaks. i'm not the only one. i'm quite aware of that...clearly i'm missing the point you were trying to make here.



yes, sometimes i'm whored out. it is not the epicenter of my sex life as some seem intent on making it out to be, but it is certainly an aspect of it. to be honest i have no idea what, if anything, would define "traditional" sex...as in the specifics of sexual behavior and activities themselves. i think "traditionally" that would just be nobody's gosh darn business, and not something discussed at the supermarket or PTA meeting.

also to be clear i don't hold myself up as a "model" of old-fashionedness or submissiveness or anything else. and i certainly acknowledge and accept the fact that certain aspects of my sexuality would probably be perversions no matter what the culture in which i lived. perhaps they may be a little less so, but there would always be things that are just a bit off. that doesn't bother me. i am not defined by sex acts. what bothers me is having the core aspects of who i am attacked, ridiculed, and just in general unaccepted by the mainstream.

Feeling like an outsider does not equal attacked and ridiculed by the "mainstream."

and that is because despite the fact that we all share this little corner of the world, there will be differences in experiences...differences related to culture, economics, and goodness knows what else. going all the way back to the OP, i do not view it as abnormal for a man to order for a woman at a restaurant, especially with the situation as described where he is not actually choosing for her but really just speaking up on her behalf. the reasons i do not consider it abnormal are not related to my life with my Master (i recognize anything i express from that perspective will instantly be relegated to "not normal" by most here)...they are due to experiences dining out with "vanilla" men. and if that is difficult for some to believe, perhaps that is because their backgrounds have led to some drastically different experiences. it does not mean that i have no concept of "normal"...or at least, as much as anyone else.

Right, and there is a difference between personal experiences and looking at a variety of different perspectives by reading, listening, living in different places, etc. I don't think my little corner of the universe is typical and I don't base my description of what's normal on that limited experience.

Heeeeeey....

(I've kind of lost track of what my generation is being called these days. Gen Y? Millenials? Or are those the kids below me? Either way, I'm going to pretend to be insulted now.)

*sulk*

I guess you are since you're a 20-something, but just barely. My experience has been more with the mid twenty somethings.

Haha, I don't doubt you. Just giving you grief

I liked it!

 

[00Syd]

I'm 22, about half way to 23. So yah, you're right about my age. We're one of those fun "gray area" age groups.

Same here. There seems to be an enormous gap between people our age, and those born even a few years later, who grew up having computers (and the internet) in the house and them playing a much larger role in their childhoods.

-not sure what this tangent is about, bu t contributing anyways-

(I dunno what its about either. *shrug*)

I got an AOL account and started hanging out in chatrooms and surfing the web on the regular when I was... what, 10-ish? And I had access to the internet before that, but only in school (so only with a semi-academic context).

But, still. I consider myself part of the "internet generation" because, shit, I grew up with it.

ETA: I think where I draw the generational line between us and people younger than us is when kids started growing up with cell phones. Maybe its just me, but kids who grew up with cell phones are WEIRD. Weird. And crazy.

I think I got my first cell phone when I was... 14? And I lost it almost right away I didn't get a new one for like a year after that, haha.

I liked it!

Great!

 

[Stella_Omega]

what bothers me is having the core aspects of who i am attacked, ridiculed, and just in general unaccepted by the mainstream.

Tough noogies, really.

Look, I've lived one half a century, and in all of that time, the core aspects of how I am have been attacked, ridiculed, and in general unaccepted by the mainstream.

The real mainstream. The mainstream that PASSES LAWS against me and mine.

Whatever you want to think, you are STILL a perfectly normative heterosexual woman. You CAN walk down the street with your master and No.

One.

Will.

Blink--

at the MAN and the WOMAN showing affection for each other.

As a matter of fact, you reap the rewards of someone else's battle-- since you two are interracial.

Fucking count your blessings. Stop whining about poor little you and how no one in the Vanilla world understands the depths of your submission.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Feeling like an outsider does not equal attacked and ridiculed by the "mainstream."

no, it doesn't, they certainly don't need to go hand in hand but sometimes they do. i personally could deal okay with just being "different." it's the fact that the individual qualities which make up my "differentness" are in fact attacked, ridiculed, and invalidated by the mainstream.

Right, and there is a difference between personal experiences and looking at a variety of different perspectives by reading, listening, living in different places, etc. I don't think my little corner of the universe is typical and I don't base my description of what's normal on that limited experience.

i'm not sure why you seem to be under the impression that my life experiences are so severely limited, or that i do not read and listen to various perspectives as much as yourself. i already said that i recognize most will instantly write off any experience i have in relation to my Master, or in relation to being a slave, as "not normal," hence in a discussion about what is and what is not normal i would not draw from that experience.

 

[Netzach]

As a matter of fact, you reap the rewards of someone else's battle-- since you two are interracial.

Fucking count your blessings. Stop whining about poor little you and how no one in the Vanilla world understands the depths of your submission.

Nyet. osg and Daddy are not.

I'm not going to argue that osg has no concept of oppression - to me that's pretty stupid - everyone has tsures and just being black and moving around in the world isn't easier than being trans and moving around in the world per se. You could win the marginalization and danger lotto and be a black T girl, of course.

but when it comes to this I will agree that there's a completely different experience in feeling marginalized on an issue versus actually being - I would think the difference would be pretty clear

also I don't think it's more fun or more easy or that certain people are "more suited" to a marginal existence because it's nice that they're strong and they can cope. I think most people have had to hammer themselves into tougher stuff to do it and it's not that fun for anybody.

 

[callinectes2]

Heeeeeey....

(I've kind of lost track of what my generation is being called these days. Gen Y? Millenials?

Those damn kids.

 

[callinectes2]

Nyet. osg and Daddy are not.

I'm not going to argue that osg has no concept of oppression - to me that's pretty stupid - everyone has tsures and just being black and moving around in the world isn't easier than being trans and moving around in the world per se. You could win the marginalization and danger lotto and be a black T girl, of course.

but when it comes to this I will agree that there's a completely different experience in feeling marginalized on an issue versus actually being - I would think the difference would be pretty clear

also I don't think it's more fun or more easy or that certain people are "more suited" to a marginal existence because it's nice that they're strong and they can cope. I think most people have had to hammer themselves into tougher stuff to do it and it's not that fun for anybody.

I may be talking out of my ass here, but I am confident a straight black person has a hella bigger community and support system than a trans-gendered and/or gay person. apples and oranges and all that.

 

[YourCaptor]

Oh, I'm bad! spank me!

I didn't write off osg's views, I did challenge them. Is that not allowed? I think that just as she can ridicule and misinterpret so-called 'vanilla' traditions, so she should have to defend her arguments. But she doesn't. she reverts to victim and hopes for a sap to provide support. Hardly representing a marginal area of bdsm.

There are other posters here who have cogently and effectively argued in defense of TPE, it's just that osg is incapable of doing so because she currently lacks the ability to do so in a convincing manner. So, far from keeping the issue 'up front' as you put it, she's actually making it more marginalised than it was before.

OSG is giving her opinions, no theories, no plans of world domination, just her perspective. Why you feel you have to rip that to pieces I don’t understand. You may as well tell a kid that no, red is not your favorite balloon color, its green, and if you can’t see that then you’re discredited.

Maybe you can show me this cutting and highly insulting remark in which she "misinterpret so-called 'vanilla' traditions".

If you absolutely must challenge her perspective, whatever, but the following was not the way to do it.

I can now see why you like this scene. it absolves you of any personal responsibility, manipulates others into paying for you and providing protection.

Not to mention when OSG attempts to better explain herself, you throw out comments such as.

I can respect perspectives if they are cogently argued. you are unable to do so. I'm not going to 'respect' you because you are basing your world view on a small and slightly skewed way of life and you expect that way of life to somehow be mainstream, hence you think it perfectly 'normal' for men to choose what women eat. If you want respect, then maybe you should try respecting other people's opinions, hmmm?

And my favorite.

try reading what you post.

I find it rather ironic that bullying is the outcome of a discussion on manors, and with another discussion and passive aggressive behavior not too far in the distance. And yes, I see you bullying her.

You should really try out your own advice some time. That is “If you want respect, then maybe you should try respecting other people's opinions, hmmm?”

I really think you step over the line here. It was simply totally unnecessary.

 

[intothewoods]

no, it doesn't, they certainly don't need to go hand in hand but sometimes they do. i personally could deal okay with just being "different." it's the fact that the individual qualities which make up my "differentness" are in fact attacked, ridiculed, and invalidated by the mainstream.



i'm not sure why you seem to be under the impression that my life experiences are so severely limited, or that i do not read and listen to various perspectives as much as yourself. i already said that i recognize most will instantly write off any experience i have in relation to my Master, or in relation to being a slave, as "not normal," hence in a discussion about what is and what is not normal i would not draw from that experience.

Your characterization of what's normal is completely out of whack to me, as we've gone over countless times already. In response, you've offered repeatedly that we live in different worlds, and I'm just saying that I didn't form my opinions based on my neighborhood.