Toy or Slave, what is the difference??

[chy_girl]

I'm not much of a joiner. Also given the way a lot of BDSM stuff seems to work, I really do not think I could be all deferential to some guy or gal just because they decide that their label and my assumed label says I should.

the bolded bit, I just can't get my head round why I have to treat a man with any more respect than I treat a woman, or a Dom with more respect than a sub. They aren't ~my~ doms, so why should they get the same deference as he does?

I treat Dominants with the same respect that I give other subs - be them male or female. I make eye contact, hold conversations, shake a hand if it's offered. Any specific or special deference toward a person in the community comes only at the request of my Mistress or Sir, and they would only make a request like that for someone who has earned it.

Yes, there are local communities who can get a little touchy about that - mine is not one of them. The key is that I'm treating everyone with respect. In a conversation I will ask question and voice my opinion, but I'm not going to get bossy with people unless they start mucking around in my box. And at that point, it's my box, my business, and they can either respect my boundaries or fuck off. And that last part goes for anyone, kink or not.

The munches I've attended were extremely helpful when I first started in the local community. Many of the longtimers were more than happy to give me the safety lectures and the basics of how things worked in the community. It also gave me the opportunity to meet the "grandparents" of the scene - the people who have been around long enough to give a definite yes or no about the appropriateness of something without having to worry if they're dickwaving or bolstering. They also have the experience and knowledge to know how to handle some of the more delicate issues that can arise in the relationship and in play. These are definitely the people you want to know and be able to invite for coffee.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Annnd... it gives you a chance to watch people and see who you want to get to know and who you want to ignore.

 

[where]

Not with you, Kitten.

damn!

I treat Dominants with the same respect that I give other subs - be them male or female. I make eye contact, hold conversations, shake a hand if it's offered. Any specific or special deference toward a person in the community comes only at the request of my Mistress or Sir, and they would only make a request like that for someone who has earned it.

Yes, there are local communities who can get a little touchy about that - mine is not one of them. The key is that I'm treating everyone with respect. In a conversation I will ask question and voice my opinion, but I'm not going to get bossy with people unless they start mucking around in my box. And at that point, it's my box, my business, and they can either respect my boundaries or fuck off. And that last part goes for anyone, kink or not.

The munches I've attended were extremely helpful when I first started in the local community. Many of the longtimers were more than happy to give me the safety lectures and the basics of how things worked in the community. It also gave me the opportunity to meet the "grandparents" of the scene - the people who have been around long enough to give a definite yes or no about the appropriateness of something without having to worry if they're dickwaving or bolstering. They also have the experience and knowledge to know how to handle some of the more delicate issues that can arise in the relationship and in play. These are definitely the people you want to know and be able to invite for coffee.

Annnd... it gives you a chance to watch people and see who you want to get to know and who you want to ignore.

to be honest, if there were one local to me, I would feel uncomfortable going because I'd be going alone and I'm not looking to connect with people for this. I prefer to find my own way.

 

[brightangel]

To stick with my menswear analogy, since I'm getting good mileage out of it....you might also leave the house in a sweatshirt and loon pants. No one's going to arrest you, but if you try to get into an upscale restaurant, they are going to be snickering at you.

I know you people are a bunch of internet libertarians and no-one wants to be told anything, but that doesn't alter the basic facts. BDSM norms exist, and at the very least you ought to know and respect them before you start flaunting them.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to involve myself in this... but you are terrifying. Seriously.

 

[txboyalone]

This is a new thread for me, but it seems that a toy can be used and discarded if it is no longer any fun to play with or it breaks. Whereas a slave has right and needs that a good master would want to see to so they remained a healthy and satisfying slave. While a slave can be used as a toy for a while, they always remain a slave. A toy can never be used as a slave because it will never be more than a toy.

Although I am an alpha kind of guy, I don't think I would want to have the responsibility of having a slave. While out there on the fringes of my imaginations I can sometimes wonder what it would be like to not be in control and to have to serve a master.

:caning:

 

[rosco rathbone]

Bollocks. Every single last word of this is just complete bollocks. Have you ever actually been to a munch? Have you ever met anyone who's into BDSM? Seriously, you should try it some time - you might find your eyes opened.

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

It's pretty common these days for noobs to think that "anything goes" in this world of BDSM. Get some of your fellow noobs together and you can call yourselves a munch. Why not start a fetlife group, and give bad advice to other newcomers?

There are norms and "rules" in BDSM and they are easily accessible in the canonical literature which many claim to have read but few have mastered.

No romance in BDSM. End of story.

 

[00Syd]

didn't you say that you went to munches aimed at younger people, though? I'm sure those will be different.

I'm so unsure of myself in this area and of what role I have or if I even have one, the idea of going to an organised event (which I hate anyway) and then one which is so label driven.... gives me the eepues.

I go to TNG munches (for younger people) AND to munches for people of all ages. There is absolutely NO real difference, except for maybe a difference in pop-cultural knowledge

And, I don't know if it would be you feel more comfortable going to an organized event (even one as informal and relaxed as a munch), but I can promise you, you wouldn't be the only person there who is, or has ever been, unsure of their role, or if they even have one at all. And I promise promise promise that people don't go to munches and sit around discussing their chosen labels, and calling each other by their labels, etc. People are more likely to talk about a movie, or a local restaurant, or a good book, than they are to talk about floggers and slaves. People might discuss upcoming or recent events, but for the most part, that's as far as talking about BDSM goes at a munch.

Anyway, if you aren't comfortable going to organized events no matter what, then that's that, but I don't want you to have a wrong impression of the scene.

 

[00Syd]

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

It's pretty common these days for noobs to think that "anything goes" in this world of BDSM. Get some of your fellow noobs together and you can call yourselves a munch. Why not start a fetlife group, and give bad advice to other newcomers?

There are norms and "rules" in BDSM and they are easily accessible in the canonical literature which many claim to have read but few have mastered.

No romance in BDSM. End of story.

Oh no! The scene has changed since you stopped going to munches! How absolutely horrifying! I mean, of course it's out of the question that the scene might have changed for the better. Why would anyone ever suggest such an outrageous thing.

 

[intothewoods]

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

It's pretty common these days for noobs to think that "anything goes" in this world of BDSM. Get some of your fellow noobs together and you can call yourselves a munch. Why not start a fetlife group, and give bad advice to other newcomers?

There are norms and "rules" in BDSM and they are easily accessible in the canonical literature which many claim to have read but few have mastered.

No romance in BDSM. End of story.

I can't decide if you are fucking with the posters on this thread or if you're serious.

I guess you're not much of a fan of the D/g dynamic.

 

[chy_girl]

This is a new thread for me, but it seems that a toy can be used and discarded if it is no longer any fun to play with or it breaks.
*snip*

See, that's the one hard and fast I have heard. Don't break the toys! Because if you break the toys then the toys don't want to play with you any more and maybe they get broken bad enough that they don't want to play with anyone in the community any more. And that's bad. Besides, if the toy you're playing with has a Person or People and you break the toy, the Person and People get very, very cranky about that because it wasn't your toy first and they were just sharing.

Yeah. Don't break the toys...

 

[ownedsubgal]

my sole munch experience was very uncomfortable. it was TNG-sponsored, but there were people there of all ages of course. my Master is the social sort and had quite a few acquaintances and even a couple of friends there (none within the TNG age range i should add), so he went to socialize with them above all else. He attends a munch every now and again, but he meets most people through small private gatherings. so anywho because he's fairly well-known and respected within a certain lifestyle circle in our area, people knew of me and welcomed me as his slave. but i didn't feel welcomed in the sense of having others i could even remotely relate to.

Daddy can go to a munch, hook up with his Dom friends and talk music and sports and whatnot. it's no issue that they can't relate to his way of life or relationship philosophy. but being a slave who really has no life outside of slavery, socializing isn't so easy for me. conversations quickly reach a dead end. and at this particular munch the atmosphere of most of the folks was very "kinky fun"-oriented...this was something they did for fun, a facet of their lives, not a representation of who they are and how they lived day in and day out. several times i was asked by other "submissives" what i was into, what my Master did to turn me on, etc. i didn't say much at all, mostly just that admitted that i was very unfamiliar with most of the kinky terminology they were tossing out because that stuff just isn't a part of my world. they didn't have much to say to me after that.

so yeah, the munch thing (or public scene in general) is not for everyone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

It's pretty common these days for noobs to think that "anything goes" in this world of BDSM. Get some of your fellow noobs together and you can call yourselves a munch. Why not start a fetlife group, and give bad advice to other newcomers?

There are norms and "rules" in BDSM and they are easily accessible in the canonical literature which many claim to have read but few have mastered.

No romance in BDSM. End of story.

I don't believe you munched with those exalted folks, actually. You're just another guy making claims on the internet.

 

[intothewoods]

my sole munch experience was very uncomfortable. it was TNG-sponsored, but there were people there of all ages of course. my Master is the social sort and had quite a few acquaintances and even a couple of friends there (none within the TNG age range i should add), so he went to socialize with them above all else. He attends a munch every now and again, but he meets most people through small private gatherings. so anywho because he's fairly well-known and respected within a certain lifestyle circle in our area, people knew of me and welcomed me as his slave. but i didn't feel welcomed in the sense of having others i could even remotely relate to.

Daddy can go to a munch, hook up with his Dom friends and talk music and sports and whatnot. it's no issue that they can't relate to his way of life or relationship philosophy. but being a slave who really has no life outside of slavery, socializing isn't so easy for me. conversations quickly reach a dead end. and at this particular munch the atmosphere of most of the folks was very "kinky fun"-oriented...this was something they did for fun, a facet of their lives, not a representation of who they are and how they lived day in and day out. several times i was asked by other "submissives" what i was into, what my Master did to turn me on, etc. i didn't say much at all, mostly just that admitted that i was very unfamiliar with most of the kinky terminology they were tossing out because that stuff just isn't a part of my world. they didn't have much to say to me after that.

so yeah, the munch thing (or public scene in general) is not for everyone.

Not all munches are the same, but more importantly, I think deeper conversations about power exchange in the context of a relationship and relationships in general take place after you develop friendships. I haven't been in ages for a number of reasons, but when I first went the initial chit chat was mostly, what's your name, what are you, what are you into, have you been to the parties, blah blah. It was only after I got to know people that we had more deeper discussions. That said, most people are there because they are open to playing with others.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm actually not into traditional romance at all and I don't see the problem with the whole screw the roses give me the thorns attitude. Like it or not though, at this point romance seems to be pervasive in lots of areas of bdsm.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

It's pretty common these days for noobs to think that "anything goes" in this world of BDSM. Get some of your fellow noobs together and you can call yourselves a munch. Why not start a fetlife group, and give bad advice to other newcomers?

There are norms and "rules" in BDSM and they are easily accessible in the canonical literature which many claim to have read but few have mastered.

No romance in BDSM. End of story.

I know, Rosco. These new-fangled horseless carriages will never catch on, and Mr Edison's 'telephone' may allow one to listen to the opera from one's own home, but it's unlikely ever to have any practical use. Now take your pills and go back to sleep; the undertaker hasn't quite finished making your coffin yet.

 

[00Syd]

I'm actually not into traditional romance at all and I don't see the problem with the whole screw the roses give me the thorns attitude. Like it or not though, at this point romance seems to be pervasive in lots of areas of bdsm.

It's not to say that romance should or needs to be present in all aspects of BDSM, or in all BDSM relationships. There can be romance, or there can not be. But, as you know, to say that romance isn't accepted or tolerated in BDSM relationships by the scene at large is just patently untrue.

 

[SirLeo]

Let us not forget the lovely term "pet"

Pet is my favorite....

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm actually not into traditional romance at all and I don't see the problem with the whole screw the roses give me the thorns attitude. Like it or not though, at this point romance seems to be pervasive in lots of areas of bdsm.

I'm not a romance-seeking person either. I'm into it for the sex.

But do you know where the 'Roses/thorns" quote came from? A told his bottom that he would bring roses to the hospital where she was laid up. And he did. (they might have stripped the blooms off the stems later, of course )

It isn't only the hetero crowd either.

Back in the days of the Old Guard, you know, romance wasn't considered a feature of Manly Male Sex-- although it was, hidden and sublimated aplenty. And of course the minute HIV showed up, the men changed that attitude. I know a number of gay male couples that have been committed to each other for decades now, and some of them got married during that California window of opportunity. Romance is okay if you want it.

For instance, here's the bio of the gentleman who presented at the munch two weekends ago;
http://lads.la/guest-presenters/alexi-romanov/
He was with his slave husband. There was a good bit of blushing, hand-holding, and ooshy-gooshyness going on... right there in public.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Not all munches are the same, but more importantly, I think deeper conversations about power exchange in the context of a relationship and relationships in general take place after you develop friendships. I haven't been in ages for a number of reasons, but when I first went the initial chit chat was mostly, what's your name, what are you, what are you into, have you been to the parties, blah blah. It was only after I got to know people that we had more deeper discussions. That said, most people are there because they are open to playing with others.

heck, i surely wasn't looking to engage in deep discussions with anyone. casual chit chat is awesome, but is difficult for me to engage in with most folks because even the most mundane of topics revolves around the reality of my life as a slave and the restrictions/isolation/control/etc. that entails. so there was my Master and his Dom buddies talking music industry shop, and a bunch of female pyls discussing the stuff you mentioned: the ins and outs of the particular kinks they were into, what parties or workshops they had attended or were attending, who they had played with recently and how hot it was, etc. what two cents could i put in a crowd like that? so i just sat mostly dead silent the whole evening, sipping my drink beside Daddy and wishing i could have stayed home.

 

[MisterSir]

I was munching with Old Guard players and folks who run European houses of domination before most of the folks in this forum had an internet connection or knew the letters "BDSM" could be used all together to mean "something kinky".

I care. Seriously, no word a lie and not an ounce of sarcasm, the fact you happen to be older than me makes your opinion infinitely more valid than mine.

[spoiler: that was sarcasm. You're a gigantic tool]

 

[chy_girl]

*snip*

For instance, here's the bio of the gentleman who presented at the munch two weekends ago;
http://lads.la/guest-presenters/alexi-romanov/
He was with his slave husband. There was a good bit of blushing, hand-holding, and ooshy-gooshyness going on... right there in public.

*dramatic gasp*

Do you mean that I'm not supposed to give my Mistress moon-eyed looks of adoration because she's... My female Dominant!!!

*removes her tongue from where it was firmly planted in her cheek*

I honestly can't see where positive attachments, caring regard and, god forbid, some form of love would ruin the PYL/ply or TPE dynamic. And, speaking from personal experience, those three things allow me to actually give them a deeper submission than I was able to six months ago. Silly interpersonal connection needs of human psychology.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thing is, he really is OG. And I munched with him just a few weeks ago.

Fifteen years ago, I was hanging regularly with Jack Renilla and Chuck Renslow. (I never heard the term "munch" untill a few years ago, we just met for beer and coffee)

I earned my leather at the Chicago Eagle (now closed), and the dykes (who were kindly allowed every Tuesday night in the basement dungeon there) helped Chuck host the second IMSL event in 1995.

There was Romance going on, right in the heart of the Old Guard.

 

[YourCaptor]

This is a new thread for me, but it seems that a toy can be used and discarded if it is no longer any fun to play with or it breaks. Whereas a slave has right and needs that a good master would want to see to so they remained a healthy and satisfying slave. While a slave can be used as a toy for a while, they always remain a slave. A toy can never be used as a slave because it will never be more than a toy.

Although I am an alpha kind of guy, I don't think I would want to have the responsibility of having a slave. While out there on the fringes of my imaginations I can sometimes wonder what it would be like to not be in control and to have to serve a master.

:caning:

I disagree, you can break a slave, or dump them, etc. A girl you toy with has far more sway than a slave.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I disagree, you can break a slave, or dump them, etc. A girl you toy with has far more sway than a slave.

Quod erat demonstrandum a rose by any other name and that smelling thing.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not a romance-seeking person either. I'm into it for the sex.

But do you know where the 'Roses/thorns" quote came from? A told his bottom that he would bring roses to the hospital where she was laid up. And he did. (they might have stripped the blooms off the stems later, of course )

It isn't only the hetero crowd either.

Back in the days of the Old Guard, you know, romance wasn't considered a feature of Manly Male Sex-- although it was, hidden and sublimated aplenty. And of course the minute HIV showed up, the men changed that attitude. I know a number of gay male couples that have been committed to each other for decades now, and some of them got married during that California window of opportunity. Romance is okay if you want it.

For instance, here's the bio of the gentleman who presented at the munch two weekends ago;
http://lads.la/guest-presenters/alexi-romanov/
He was with his slave husband. There was a good bit of blushing, hand-holding, and ooshy-gooshyness going on... right there in public.

I think rosco is just fucking with everyone.

heck, i surely wasn't looking to engage in deep discussions with anyone. casual chit chat is awesome, but is difficult for me to engage in with most folks because even the most mundane of topics revolves around the reality of my life as a slave and the restrictions/isolation/control/etc. that entails. so there was my Master and his Dom buddies talking music industry shop, and a bunch of female pyls discussing the stuff you mentioned: the ins and outs of the particular kinks they were into, what parties or workshops they had attended or were attending, who they had played with recently and how hot it was, etc. what two cents could i put in a crowd like that? so i just sat mostly dead silent the whole evening, sipping my drink beside Daddy and wishing i could have stayed home.

After the first time, people will stop asking what you're into and all that.