The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[intothewoods]

So at 16 you can legally have sex, but you cannot be exposed to sex or nudity?

How does that work?

You can't buy porn. You can't go to an R-rated movie. Welcome to the U.S. The laws don't always make sense. I don't think any of the above have anything to do with what applies at a party. There are laws against exposing oneself to a minor, serving alchohol to a minor (if alcohol were served at the party). And if an adult were to have sex with a minor (though the specific laws differ by jurisdiction) that would be statutory rape.

 

[BLoved]

You can't buy porn. You can't go to an R-rated movie. Welcome to the U.S. The laws don't always make sense. I don't think any of the above have anything to do with what applies at a party. There are laws against exposing oneself to a minor, serving alchohol to a minor (if alcohol were served at the party). And if an adult were to have sex with a minor (though the specific laws differ by jurisdiction) that would be statutory rape.

Based on the wiki link I provided earlier, the law seems to distinguish between someone younger than the age of consent, and someone who has achieved the age of consent.

 

[CutieMouse]

My objections to casual 'bdsm' are based on an analysis of the no-strings-attached paradigm, which is the essence of casual 'bdsm'.

I'm not claiming to be a witness to all events everywhere.

That doesn't stop people like Netzach and seela from making claims that would require them to have witnessed all events everywhere.

You aren't claiming to be witness to all events anywhere, yet you're painting with a broad enough brush to claim any public BDSM event is orchestrated to endanger submissives. When people with more experience than you explain your giant leaps of logic do not ad up, you claim your [limited, biased] experience us trustworthy, but their [frequently extensive] experience isn't.

Are you being intentionally obtuse here?

 

[BLoved]

You aren't claiming to be witness to all events anywhere, yet you're painting with a broad enough brush to claim any public BDSM event is orchestrated to endanger submissives. When people with more experience than you explain your giant leaps of logic do not ad up, you claim your [limited, biased] experience us trustworthy, but their [frequently extensive] experience isn't.

Are you being intentionally obtuse here?

Analysis of a paradigm provides insights you'll never get if you only focus on the minutiae.

 

[Homburg]

Analysis of a paradigm provides insights you'll never get if you only focus on the minutiae.

Translation: The facts are irrelevant.

 

[BLoved]

Translation: The facts are irrelevant.

No.

One can rely on testimonials, which are subjective and influenced by the bias of the one who testifies.

Or, one can analyze the paradigm, which one can approach without bias.

 

[CutieMouse]

No.

One can rely on testimonials, which are subjective and influenced by the bias of the one who testifies.

Or, one can analyze the paradigm, which one can approach without bias.

Meaning the testimonials and single experience you've based your entire argument on are subjective and influenced by the biased opinion of those who helped form your views.

 

[seela]

So they are not banned from public casual 'bdsm' events because of their age.

They are banned because the events are being held in establishments where alcohol is served, and being underage they're not allowed in such establishments.

And presumably once these events occur in establishments that don't serve alcohol, they will be able to attend them.

I have told time and time again that it doen't matter what the 16 year olds can or cannot do outside the organized BDSM community, because the community itself uses the age limit of 18 or higher when it comes to their events.

I gave you an anecdotal example of a situation where I was not allowed to enter a party because the organizers couldn't be sure of my age because I didn't have a suitable ID on me. And in this case the event wasn't even in a bar/restaurant/club, but in a place where minors can go whenever they want. Except if there's a sex party there, as was clearly illustrated in my example. I was 19 at the time and 18 was the required age. Should I have been able to prove my age, I would have been allowed to attend the party.

And before you jump on me for that - I previously said that most parties are held in restaurants/bars, that means that some parties are held in other places. Lately more and more so. The age limit is still enforced, as can be seen in my little anecdote there.

But no, my experiences are inherently flawed, because I didn't find the events horrible when I went like you did.

I'm not claiming to be a witness to all events everywhere.

That doesn't stop people like Netzach and seela from making claims that would require them to have witnessed all events everywhere.

OMG. What to say, what to say. Are you seriously claiming that your two brief experiences with BDSM community 16 years ago are a solid base for the sweeping claims you make, but others are not able to base their claims on their more frequent and definitely newer experiences?

There's no reason to believe that the events I've visited were atypical, so all the claims I base on them are valid. Sound familiar?

Oh, wait, it must be that you've got the skillz to totally rock the observing part whereas the rest of us don't have your amazing mental capacities, which renders us absolutely useless in that observing biz. Sorry, I forgot.

Seriously, I'm outta this discussion.

 

[BLoved]

Meaning the testimonials and single experience you've based your entire argument on are subjective and influenced by the biased opinion of those who helped form your views.

I will try and explain the process.

The testimonials and experience all contributed to raising the question with respect to casual 'bdsm'.

What is the ethical basis that supports the behaviour?

What is the paradigm?

Once that is determined, manifestations and consequences can be worked out.

These act as predictions which can be compared to reality.

The paradigm for casual 'bdsm' is self-indulgence, indifference towards others.

The no strings attached one night stand is the ultimate expression of this paradigm.

The consequence is an erosion of self-esteem.

A number of factors influence the rate of erosion, but the prediction is there will be some erosion each time such behaviour occurs and eventually enough erosion to interfere with one's ability to engage in a healthy loving relationship.

In looking for evidence of low self-esteem I find amongst those who approve of casual 'bdsm' the highest (by far) percentage of online personalities who engage in the most immature behaviour.

Obsessive/compulsive behaviour, aggression, stalking, taunting, ridicule, character assasination ... these are all in abundance here, by a considerable percentage of the participants.

Such behaviour I associate with low self-esteem because self-aware, self-controlled adults don't engage in such behaviour.

Consider the models for adulthood and patient, intelligent, compassionate and cooperative are all hallmarks for maturity.

Don't see a heck of lot of that in this discussion.

So I see this discussion as confirmation of the prediction.

Those who engage in or approve of casual 'bdsm' tend to suffer from low self-esteem which manifests itself defensively in a variety of anti-social behaviour driven by an obsessive/compulsive-like need for approval ... at any cost.

Now apply that to a bdsm setting. What can we predict about how such individuals will interact with novices who are relying on such individuals to lead the way?

They will preferentially select those with low self-esteem, as those with healthy self-esteem will be viewed as threatening their position.

And again I find evidence of this in these discussions, as newcomers jump on the bandwagon and win themselves praise from the regulars.

I could go on but it is getting late and about time I turned in.

I hope I've helped clarify the process I've applied to the casual 'bdsm' paradigm.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I'm curious BLoved.

You've stated that you've talked to countless 'victims' as part of forming your views, but have you ever actually spoken to anyone who's had positive experiences?

 

[CutieMouse]

I hope I've helped clarify the process I've applied to the casual 'bdsm' paradigm.

You are now stating that your argument, based on anecdotal evidence, conjecture and biased information is a paradigm, and any opposing argument based on anecdotal evidence, conjecture and biased information is not a paradigm. Wow.

You have clarified that you are paranoid, narrow minded, melodramatic, obtuse, hypocritical martyr lacking critical thinking skills. The last several posts you've made have done an excellent job of cementing that impression.

 

[Netzach]

tend to suffer from low self-esteem which manifests itself defensively in a variety of anti-social behaviour driven by an obsessive/compulsive-like need for approval ... at any cost.

Now apply that to a bdsm setting. What can we predict about how such individuals will interact with novices who are relying on such individuals to lead the way?

They will preferentially select those with low self-esteem, as those with healthy self-esteem will be viewed as threatening their position.

........

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bloved, I'm curious;

How many women have you talked to?

How did you find them to talk to them?

How did you conduct the interviews-- face to face? Via telephone? Via chat?

 

[chy_girl]

I've provided the link to Wiki's list of states and their ages of consent. That list includes the laws that apply to age of consent. There are no restrictions listed regarding porn stores or bdsm events.



I suggest you examine the link.

Ages of consent in North America: United States - Wikipedia

That's because exposure to certain things does NOT fall under the AOC laws.

So they are not banned from public casual 'bdsm' events because of their age.

They are banned because the events are being held in establishments where alcohol is served, and being underage they're not allowed in such establishments.

And presumably once these events occur in establishments that don't serve alcohol, they will be able to attend them.

No. They are banned because it is illegal to expose minors to such things.

On top of which, the "casual community" will debate as to whether the acceptable age for attendance is 18 or 21 - why? Because if an 18 year old isn't mature enough make an informed decision about alcohol why would they be mature enough to make an informed decision about BDSM? And again, we start cycling back to Safe, Sane, and Consensual.

If someone wants to provide a link to such a law ...

You mean like this one?

163.575 Endangering the welfare of a minor. (1) A person commits the crime of endangering the welfare of a minor if the person knowingly:

(a) Induces, causes or permits an unmarried person under 18 years of age to witness an act of sexual conduct or sadomasochistic abuse as defined by ORS 167.060; or
*snip*

There. By law, it is considered endangering the welfare to expose a person under 18 to sexual acts and BDSM. And they say "sadomasochistic abuse" they do mean BDSM... We have a Right to Consent law here that makes BDSM legal.

So at 16 you can legally have sex, but you cannot be exposed to sex or nudity?

How does that work?

It works because the AOC law deals with who's fucking who and whether or not it's legal. AOC doesn't have anything to do with Endangering the Welfare of a Minor.

Two different things.

 

[Etoile]

You know, I was always under the impression school rooms were numbered so kids could find their way to class at the beginning of the year... but I don't think it was for safety... I mean, my dad is amongst the earlier parts of the Baby Boomer generation, and his school rooms were numbered...

Rooms were numbered when I went to school too. The doors INTO the school, however, were not. A little while - a few years? - after I moved to where I live now, I noticed all the doors into the school - every single one - suddenly had GIANT numbers posted alongside them. It can only be related to the reason mentioned - to aid first responders into accessing the most appropriate part of the school. "The shooter's in zone 4! Go in door 4!"

 

[Etoile]

Presumably if it is legal, the casual community has no reason not to exhibit children 16 years of age or older in their public casual 'bdsm' events.

*collapses with laughter*

Sorry, but this gave me the giggles. Are you actually implying that 16 year olds can go to these events?!?! They can't. They can have sex in the privacy of their own home. THAT is what the "age of consent" refers to. Not attending play parties. ROFL!!!

Let me say it again...

AGE OF CONSENT = FUCKING
AND NOTHING ELSE

not entering porn stores
not going to kink events
not drinking alcohol
not buying porn at the bookstore
not smoking cigarettes
not anything

EXCEPT

FUCKING

 

[intothewoods]

Based on the wiki link I provided earlier, the law seems to distinguish between someone younger than the age of consent, and someone who has achieved the age of consent.

That wiki link looked just at the age of consent. There are different laws regarding voting, drinking, buying porn, etc.

 

[intothewoods]

Obsessive/compulsive behaviour, aggression, stalking, taunting, ridicule, character assasination ... these are all in abundance here, by a considerable percentage of the participants.

This also describes your posting style.

 

[rida]

And unless you are actually monitoring everything that happens at these events, the best we can say is that you attend them.

*snip*

The one public casual 'bdsm' event I attended I learned of from the one munch I attended.

No one spoke to me at that munch, let alone screened me.

They just sold me the ticket.

And why would the experience you had attending a single munch and event be more representative of reality (and the paradigm) than the experiences of multiple individual attending multiple munches and events?

What makes your experience so special to be representative of the whole?

As for the testimonial you have gotten from many submissive that opened up to you regarding their abusive experience, don't they also belong to what you say below?
(I am not denying their truth.)

One can rely on testimonials, which are subjective and influenced by the bias of the one who testifies.

And since, as you state below, your paradigm is built on a single experience and biased testimonial, how can your paradigm be unbiased?

I will try and explain the process.

The testimonials and experience all contributed to raising the question with respect to casual 'bdsm'.

What is the ethical basis that supports the behaviour?

What is the paradigm?
*snipped and summarized in the below quote*

The fact is I see public casual 'bdsm' events as inherently abusive.
.

And the above conclusion from participating to a single munch, party and talking with submissives, mostly over the internet and discrediting each experience that does not fit your paradigma.

 

[WriterDom]

There was nothing wrong with me that Love couldn't fix. I may have my ups and downs, but Robert will always be at my side, through the good and the bad times.
The 2 months that Robert and I have known eachother, both of us have grown with love for one another, and that love has freed me of my chains that my parents and ex had around me.

For you, Beloved! May you find true love one day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAkHrk0a1ic

 

[BLoved]

I'm curious BLoved.

You've stated that you've talked to countless 'victims' as part of forming your views, but have you ever actually spoken to anyone who's had positive experiences?

I've spoken with people who have made such claims.

They couldn't answer my questions regarding their self-esteem.

 

[BLoved]

You have clarified that you are paranoid, narrow minded, melodramatic, obtuse, hypocritical martyr lacking critical thinking skills. The last several posts you've made have done an excellent job of cementing that impression.

"In looking for evidence of low self-esteem I find amongst those who approve of casual 'bdsm' the highest (by far) percentage of online personalities who engage in the most immature behaviour.

"Obsessive/compulsive behaviour, aggression, stalking, taunting, ridicule, character assasination ... these are all in abundance here, by a considerable percentage of the participants.

"Such behaviour I associate with low self-esteem because self-aware, self-controlled adults don't engage in such behaviour.

"Consider the models for adulthood and patient, intelligent, compassionate and cooperative are all hallmarks for maturity.

"Don't see a heck of lot of that in this discussion.

"So I see this discussion as confirmation of the prediction."

Thanks CM.

Just more confirmation of the theory.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I've spoken with people who have made such claims.

They couldn't answer my questions regarding their self-esteem.

Did you ask about their self esteem in general? Or compartmentalise it with regards to certain aspects of their person?

 

[BLoved]

Bloved, I'm curious;

How many women have you talked to?

I assume you mean as a result of dating ... hundreds over my lifetime.

How did you find them to talk to them?

Personal advertisements, mine (mostly) theirs (rarely). Far more women have approached me than me them.

How did you conduct the interviews-- face to face? Via telephone? Via chat?

All three methods.

When I first started using personal advertisements (after the end of the relationship with my first beloved) we were still in the age before the internet became a viable place to meet someone. I used local newspapers to meet bdsm-friendly ladies.

After the end of the relationship with my second beloved, I started using the internet, but met my wife through an ad I ran in a local weekly.

Since the death of my wife I've used the net exclusively to meet others.

 

[BLoved]

You mean like this one?

Yep. That works.

Thanks for the effort.

Good to know kids are safe in Oregon.

But what about England?

According to this, bdsm is illegal in the United Kingdom, yet it is practised nonetheless.

How do we rest reassured that the casual 'bdsm' community is law-abiding when it obviously flaunts the law in England?