The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Netzach]

He doesn't prep it himself, but a friend of ours recently (Dov, know him?) bought a huge amount of untreated jute for super cheap, and treated it himself without much effort, so now he's thinking about doing that. And it's about time! He really could use some new rope, it's all getting super kinked (har har) and un-twisted. I'm going to try to keep him keen on this plan, and make every effort to remind him that buying a lot of untreated rope is much more economical than buying any of the pretty, and very expensive, rope for sale at the con.

I've met Dov, wouldn't say I know him well, took a class from him - nice guy, fun instructor.
I do intend to treat some rope at some point, now that I'm not doing as much other craft junk.

 

[Netzach]

He doesn't prep it himself, but a friend of ours recently (Dov, know him?) bought a huge amount of untreated jute for super cheap, and treated it himself without much effort, so now he's thinking about doing that. And it's about time! He really could use some new rope, it's all getting super kinked (har har) and un-twisted. I'm going to try to keep him keen on this plan, and make every effort to remind him that buying a lot of untreated rope is much more economical than buying any of the pretty, and very expensive, rope for sale at the con.

Come to think of it, why should I be the one to do this?

I'm fascinated by the fact that more tops seem to make rope smooth and nice, haha!

 

[Homburg]

That's a good plan. And speaking of events of scale, I'm heading to Shibaricon tomorrow and SO PUMPED OMG. Gigantic events are always awesome, but a gigantic event completely dedicated to rope?

/salivate

/brag

Let me add my name to the "SOOO JEALOUS" list. I'm hating on you now.

Hate. Hate.

--

ooooo an iconoclast among iconoclasts, nice? Does he prep it himself? I am too lazy and have twistedmonk stock. Need some more actually - playing with big boys I have all this 3/4. Heavy clunky.

I've not treated jute, but have treated hemp. It's really not that tough, especially if you have a gas stove. You can get the untreated stuff relatively cheap and the time commitment is not huge either. I think it took me a day and a half, and a good chunk of that was due to drying time after boiling.

And the biggest reason in my eyes to treat the rope at least minimally is how much oil untreated hemp will leech out of your skin. While the texture can be interesting, the sort of chapping that oil removal produces is not my idea of fun. My hands were a mess when I didn't take proper precautions while treating.

If you want, I can post the lazy top's guide to treating hemp somewhere.

Oh, and the "fly a plane" comment? Spot on. Utterly spot on.

 

[Netzach]

Let me add my name to the "SOOO JEALOUS" list. I'm hating on you now.

Hate. Hate.

--



I've not treated jute, but have treated hemp. It's really not that tough, especially if you have a gas stove. You can get the untreated stuff relatively cheap and the time commitment is not huge either. I think it took me a day and a half, and a good chunk of that was due to drying time after boiling.

And the biggest reason in my eyes to treat the rope at least minimally is how much oil untreated hemp will leech out of your skin. While the texture can be interesting, the sort of chapping that oil removal produces is not my idea of fun. My hands were a mess when I didn't take proper precautions while treating.

If you want, I can post the lazy top's guide to treating hemp somewhere.

Oh, and the "fly a plane" comment? Spot on. Utterly spot on.

I'm just sayin' with two slave girls I don't think you'd find me burning the hairs off the stuff. Heh.

 

[rosco rathbone]

That's a good plan. And speaking of events of scale, I'm heading to Shibaricon tomorrow and SO PUMPED OMG. Gigantic events are always awesome, but a gigantic event completely dedicated to rope?

/salivate

/brag

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/master_rigger_guide.pdf

 

[Netzach]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/master_rigger_guide.pdf

I did actually meet a guy who was like "I'm a rigger" at this when I went. "No, really. I tie girders onto stuff."

 

[rosco rathbone]

I did actually meet a guy who was like "I'm a rigger" at this when I went. "No, really. I tie girders onto stuff."

I always thought more bdsm people should get into the industrial material-moving thing.

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/WMHToolGroup/101721_main?$web_wmh_main$

 

[BLoved]

Yadda yar yar yar, I never at any point said ALL SM EVENTS WORLDWIDE ARE SAFE AS Q-TIPS SOFT ENDS. I said that I've never seen one be remotely as you characterize, and in 12 years of wandering around I'm confident you are full of it.

What you said, in part, was:

horseshit. Fail again. I don't care what you want to think, but LYING to people in hope of finding someone to believe your crap will not fly. And she can negotiate her *own* fucking risk and scene and be an adult entitled to her sexuality. You have no idea how sexist this ranting of yours is. ADULT. RIGHT TO HER OWN BODY. Fail/horseshit. FAIL again Bullshit again. More bullshit. Bullshit again Your obsession with gun crazies is a little insane. Now the lies are so thick I really don't see a point.

Of course we should just take your word for it.

People harm each other and do mean things - it's life.

It is also "life" for people to do their best to avoid such things, but that isn't something casual players and their advocates worry about.

Public play *mitigates* risk.

200+ strangers in the same room "mitigates risk"?

You mean like this?

Or this?

What about this?

I said that a public event is by and large *safer* than meeting people in the woods or off the back page of the city paper or off cragislist or even fetlife where there's no DM and no public aspect.

Presumably because you can tell so much more about a person just by looking at them than actually talking to a person over a period of days or weeks?

bad things can still happen and there is no magic land where all the sharp corners have been filed off for you.

And of course anyone who tries to make life a tad safer for themselves or others deserves no better than this:

horseshit. Fail again. I don't care what you want to think, but LYING to people in hope of finding someone to believe your crap will not fly. And she can negotiate her *own* fucking risk and scene and be an adult entitled to her sexuality. You have no idea how sexist this ranting of yours is. ADULT. RIGHT TO HER OWN BODY. Fail/horseshit. FAIL again Bullshit again. More bullshit. Bullshit again Your obsession with gun crazies is a little insane. Now the lies are so thick I really don't see a point.

If you still refuse to acknowledge the value of risk mitigation, I wonder to what ends. And who's really interested in fresh meat. I'm not on the hunt for a beloved, after all, full roster.

Yes, we know:

A lot of people would call my financial use of my slave, H, abusive of him. However I can't possibly imagine slavery that involves no material enrichment for the owner that I'd still call slavery.

 

[Keroin]

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/master_rigger_guide.pdf

I did actually meet a guy who was like "I'm a rigger" at this when I went. "No, really. I tie girders onto stuff."

I always thought more bdsm people should get into the industrial material-moving thing.

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/WMHToolGroup/101721_main?$web_wmh_main$

We had some amazing riggers in the film biz. You should have seen the set ups for "Mission to Mars", they would have blown your mind.

Total props for good riggers.

ETA: Actually, L and I met each other hanging 40 feet in the air together.

 

[RuReal]

BLoved You are asking people to take your word on what you say so what is the difference between you and us. Do you really think I am looking for fresh meat? What the hell kind of term is fresh meat anyway?

What I have issue with is you taking outdated experience that sounds suspect and preaching it as fact. Hell even if it did happen that way you do not tell people you are referring to issues from 14 years ago. I have no picture to paint all I have to say is what I have seen and lived. I do not care how long you sit in your back room and do whatever acts you choose to do. I don't care if you are a top, bottom, sub, dom, master, or slave I treat them all the same.

Everyone has to prove themselves to me because I am that kind of person and I watch what they do and how the interact with others. I am not a trusting person and the world in general is not a nice place. Nothing to do with BDSM I might add it might be better if more people practiced BDSM as those people seem to be a better crowd of people to hang around.

You sir are part of what is wrong with the world. Like I said you preach doing things your way and to take your word and not to find out for themselves what is what. Where in anything have I said here is what I want someone to do or how they should think? The closest I have come to that on any thread is telling someone that communicating with their partner is important. Nothing wrong with that is there...

Other than that I told them to research and find their local community to start plugging in and seeing for themselves. People should not rely on others to tell them that something is safe or not safe that is part of what is wrong with the world today. People fail to think for themselves and when people like you feed them what to think some suck that information up and take it as the true.

I have a question what are your views on sex? Are your views that it is only valid and proper in a loving relationship?

Do you even understand that a sub is not everyones sub?

 

[BLoved]

BLoved You are asking people to take your word on what you say so what is the difference between you and us.

Credibility.

Do you really think I am looking for fresh meat?

I've no idea. Don't you think that might be relevant to the quality of advice you are giving? Full disclosure demonstrating no conflict of interest interfering with your ability to provide accurate information?

What I have issue with is you taking outdated experience that sounds suspect and preaching it as fact. Hell even if it did happen that way you do not tell people you are referring to issues from 14 years ago.

Good point.

Back then I don't recall nearly as much of this, this or this.

Perhaps I should update the essay.

Was it not you who earlier said:

There was a very good point brought up before. Why are you so worried about violence is there something you have run into that leads you to think one cannot walk down the street or attend any kind of gathering without worrying about a gun? This is Canada and while the gun per person ratio is higher than it is in the states due to the legal limitations guns are not a common thing unless you are in a rural setting. Yes most houses out there that have older relatives will have a gun or four to five normally of the hunting variety and in a lot of cases half those people forget about them.

You sir are part of what is wrong with the world.

Because I've chosen to educate novices about the risks they run when they engage in casual 'bdsm', thus making it harder for predators to find fresh meat?

Like I said you preach doing things your way and to take your word and not to find out for themselves what is what.

Oh, by all means. Anyone who wishes to experience this, this or this is welcome to attend a public 'play' party.

After all, we should all witness a shoot-out first-hand.

Now maybe this just seems dumb, but do people really need to experience abuse first-hand before deciding whether they want more of it or not? What about rape? What about being shot?

Maybe, just maybe, not all things are best experienced first-hand.

 

[intothewoods]

What the heck? Those aren't reports about bdsm parties.

 

[BLoved]

What the heck? Those aren't reports about bdsm parties.

And yet we have RUReal claiming that there are no weapons checks at public 'play parties'.

Considering the degree of immaturity and obsessive/compulsive stalking going on in this discussion, perhaps there should be.

 

[intothewoods]

And yet we have RUReal claiming that there are no weapons checks at public 'play parties'.

Considering the degree of immaturity and obsessive/compulsive stalking going on in this discussion, perhaps there should be.

Claiming? Are you disputing that?

As I said pages ago, we also don't have weapons checks at movies, restaurants, concerts, etc. It's part of living in a free country and not a military state.

 

[rida]

off topic:

That's a good plan. And speaking of events of scale, I'm heading to Shibaricon tomorrow and SO PUMPED OMG. Gigantic events are always awesome, but a gigantic event completely dedicated to rope?

/salivate

/brag

Let me add my name to the "SOOO JEALOUS" list. I'm hating on you now.

Hate. Hate.

yes yes yes

so so so jealous ... *pout*

(have loads of fun! not that you need me to tell you that )

/off topic

 

[BLoved]

As I said pages ago, we also don't have weapons checks at movies, restaurants, concerts, etc. It's part of living in a free country and not a military state.

So is this, this and this.

So how likely is it a Dungeon Monitor will interfere with someone when he or she doesn't even conduct a weapons check for his or her own personal safety?

 

[Homburg]

I'm just sayin' with two slave girls I don't think you'd find me burning the hairs off the stuff. Heh.

Oh, yeah, I gotcha. I meant that I could give you the method I used. I was actually going to suggest handing it off to your boy, H. It sounds like the detail-oriented, delayed gratification thing that might work. I know I'd probably enjoy the idea of getting remote property all worked up playing with and working on product with the implication of possible use at a later date.

And, yes, viv was involved in the rope-treating process. I did much of it myself because I was wanting to learn the skill, but she was hands on.

And, as a final aside, my jute is all kinky and screwy too. It's annoying. I'm probably going to have to relay it, and just does not sound like fun. My hemp, not so much. It's seen more use and tolerated it far better.

Oh, yeah, if you want abrasion play with your rope, go for sisal. Unlike manila, it's safe right off the spool, and itchy as shit. And treating it does precious little to alleviate the scratchiness, so why bother treating?

 

[WriterDom]

So is this, this and this.

So how likely is it a Dungeon Monitor will interfere with someone when he or she doesn't even conduct a weapons check for his or her own personal safety?

So what's the bigger danger? Casual bars or Dungeons? The press would love to connect violence to a bdsm event. Just being associated with a group can get you outed in the press. Think if Joe the Plumber was a munch leader we would have heard about it? You Betchya! It happened 7 years ago or so with one of those Iraqi US weapons inspectors if I remember correctly. I was watching the news with my brother and he got a chuckle out of it.

 

[intothewoods]

So is this, this and this.

Yes, gun violence happens in our country, and apparently yours, though I only know what I saw in a Michael Moore movie. Sucks, but so far we have decided freedom and privacy outweigh weapons scans everywhere. This has nothing to do with bdsm of course.

So how likely is it a Dungeon Monitor will interfere with someone when he or she doesn't even conduct a weapons check for his or her own personal safety?

Very likely, what can I tell you. Checking for weapons is not the norm. Enforcing the rules is. If you break a private party rule, you will be reprimanded and then tossed if you don't stop. I'd give you examples, but you always ignore them.

Again, nothing invested here except for the truth. I attended one event last year I think. Maybe two. Not looking for play partners.

 

[BLoved]

So what's the bigger danger? Casual bars or Dungeons?

That's not really the point.

The point is there is nothing mystical about public 'play parties' that make them any safer than this, this or this.

These events could have happened anywhere.

Then we get people like Netzach claiming public 'play parties' "*mitigate* risk".

I don't see how letting 200+ members of the general public, unknown to anyone in the casual community, attend these events somehow mitigates risk.

But because it generates cash for the community, they do it anyway.

So how does safety stack up against profit?

About the same as the owners of the establishments here, here and here?

What ethical principles is the casual community demonstrating?

The press would love to connect violence to a bdsm event. Just being associated with a group can get you outed in the press. Think if Joe the Plumber was a munch leader we would have heard about it? You Betchya! It happened 7 years ago or so with one of those Iraqi US weapons inspectors if I remember correctly. I was watching the news with my brother and he got a chuckle out of it.

Ah, but this is just one of many ways for things to go wrong. If they're lax over weapons, what else are they willing to overlook to sell another ticket?

Consider RUReal's statement:

There was a very good point brought up before. Why are you so worried about violence is there something you have run into that leads you to think one cannot walk down the street or attend any kind of gathering without worrying about a gun? This is Canada and while the gun per person ratio is higher than it is in the states due to the legal limitations guns are not a common thing unless you are in a rural setting. Yes most houses out there that have older relatives will have a gun or four to five normally of the hunting variety and in a lot of cases half those people forget about them.

According to RUReal, the only thing we have to worry about with guns is a few old farts in the backwoods who might just remember they've got a shootin' iron.

According to RUReal, we don't need to worry about this, this or this.

Once again novices are lulled into a false sense of security regarding casual 'bdsm'.

If indeed casual 'bdsm' is a responsible and ethical brand of bdsm, why not recognize the risks?

Why all the hullabaloo when someone points out those risks?

Why misrepresent those risks?

Why not address those risks?

Why the perversely obvious effort to ignore those risks? To marginalize them? To mock them?

Perhaps because the casual community doesn't really care about safety?

Perhaps because casual 'bdsm' only appeals to those who lack the ethics and maturity to deal with these risks, to eliminate them altogether?

Perhaps because the 'community' prefers novices to be as ignorant and as misinformed as possible regarding the risks?

Otherwise, there might be no fresh meat for the next 'party'.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

That's not really the point.

you really are a moron.

 

[intothewoods]

By this logic, restaurants are unsafe. Bowling clubs. Strolling down the street in an urban area -- there may be stray gunfire from a drive by shooting.

No one has ever suggested that a play party is a padded solitary room. You could go to a play party, eat bad food and get food poisoning. You could trip and fall down stairs and break your neck. By this logic, you shouldn't leave your house.

 

[intothewoods]

And of course, multiple posters here over the years have made the point that there is nothing mystical about bdsm period. If anything, some people here try to demystify it and provide practical advice.

 

[BLoved]

By this logic, restaurants are unsafe. Bowling clubs. Strolling down the street in an urban area -- there may be stray gunfire from a drive by shooting.

No one has ever suggested that a play party is a padded solitary room. You could go to a play party, eat bad food and get food poisoning. You could trip and fall down stairs and break your neck. By this logic, you shouldn't leave your house.

As I said:

If indeed casual 'bdsm' is a responsible and ethical brand of bdsm, why not recognize the risks?

Why all the hullabaloo when someone points out those risks?

Why misrepresent those risks?

Why not address those risks?

Why the perversely obvious effort to ignore those risks? To marginalize them? To mock them?

Perhaps because the casual community doesn't really care about safety?

Perhaps because casual 'bdsm' only appeals to those who lack the ethics and maturity to deal with these risks, to eliminate them altogether?

Perhaps because the 'community' prefers novices to be as ignorant and as misinformed as possible regarding the risks?

Otherwise, there might be no fresh meat for the next 'party'.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

As I said:

If indeed casual 'bdsm' is a responsible and ethical brand of bdsm, why not recognize the risks?

Why all the hullabaloo when someone points out those risks?

Why misrepresent those risks?

Why not address those risks?

Why the perversely obvious effort to ignore those risks? To marginalize them? To mock them?

Perhaps because the casual community doesn't really care about safety?

Perhaps because casual 'bdsm' only appeals to those who lack the ethics and maturity to deal with these risks, to eliminate them altogether?

Perhaps because the 'community' prefers novices to be as ignorant and as misinformed as possible regarding the risks?

Otherwise, there might be no fresh meat for the next 'party'.

Maybe because you're a moron and have no clue what you're talking about?

Naahhhhhhh. Can't be it.