The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Homburg]

Win, win, and more win.

That was awesome. I want a beard like the Judge.

 

[RuReal]

BLoved once again I think you are making a lot of unreal assumptions. I have been to more than a few of the different play parties and what you describe is not something that I have seen. Now what you are saying kind of sounds like good handy's which is primarily a gay establishment. Ergo there would be way more males then females.

To be honest at most public play parties I have been too the odds are there are normally more females than males, but I guess that depends on how you count the cross dressers. Besides BDSM is more than just male or female there are a lot of female Doms out there. I guess my other question is how long ago are you talking about? I don't think I have ever been to a party that even had 100 people much less 200. Once again are you sure you were not at a club event of some sort that had a corner for BDSM or something?

To add to this I know for a fact that the establishments I have attended make contact with law enforcement to ensure that no rules are being broken and everything is on the up and up. Hell the police could walk in the door anytime they want and I have no fears or worries at all. The community is made up of people from all walks of life I would not be surprised if there were members who are in law enforcement.

Once again I really do have to question the accuracy of the information you are using. You seem to be basing your comments on something that I have not seen or heard of. I am not saying it was never like that, but what you are referring to could be ancient history.

You were the one that stated you where using websites for your source not I. If you are using such a thing then once again the person you may be speaking to can be an underaged person who knows only what they think BDSM is. They might not have any true reference and that is not a fair assesment. Really attend something and then you might have a leg to stand on.

 

[BLoved]

Once again I really do have to question the accuracy of the information you are using. You seem to be basing your comments on something that I have not seen or heard of. I am not saying it was never like that, but what you are referring to could be ancient history.

The event I attended was organized by the same people who hosted the munch. This occurred during the summer of '96, and I assure you that 200 people is a conservative estimate. There was a lot of floor space, and the place was packed.

As for my statements regarding law enforcement, when I suggested calling 911 in the event of an emergency everyone got very upset. I was told in no uncertain terms that calling for the police was strictly prohibited, that if there was any problem it should be taken to the Dungeon Monitors and left with them.

As I understand it, such parties are illegal in the States. I'm not aware of the legal status in Canada, but considering the various laws regarding strip clubs, etc, I assume the same laws apply to public exhibitions involving bdsm.

You were the one that stated you where using websites for your source not I. If you are using such a thing then once again the person you may be speaking to can be an underaged person who knows only what they think BDSM is. They might not have any true reference and that is not a fair assesment. Really attend something and then you might have a leg to stand on.

Unless you are suggesting everyone who has responded to this discussion is underage and a fraud, then the behaviour in this discussion is indicative of the behaviour of casual players and their advocates.

It is certainly no different than the behaviour I've witnessed at fetlife, collarme, bondage.com and mydungeonspace.

 

[00Syd]

As I understand it, such parties are illegal in the States. I'm not aware of the legal status in Canada, but considering the various laws regarding strip clubs, etc, I assume the same laws apply to public exhibitions involving bdsm.

It varies from state to state. For example, in NY, fetish and BDSM parties are perfectly legal and generally accepted. In MA, only a few states over from NY, legally there is no such thing as consensual S&M and so throwing BDSM parties are considerably more risky. There is no federal law that governs this sort of thing, so it's good policy to check in on any pertinent laws whenever visiting another state.

 

[Netzach]

I think you are missing my point:

Public Play Parties

The public parties are usually money-making in nature. A hall is rented, tickets are sold, anyone walking by along the street can get in for the price of admission.

Depending on the size of the hall, attendance can reach the hundreds.

Nearly all will be male.

horseshit. Based on MY attendance of multiple events, teaching at leather pride week - the only "nearly all will be male" I *ever* experienced was a GMSMA meeting (you don't know what that is, it's the gay men's SM assiciation) open meeting in NYC.

Events *are* meant to be profitable enough to be done on a repeat basis. What you will almost always find is a fairly sex-balanced mix of gay and straight attendees and many couples will be attending as a couple.

You will encounter terrifying things like meet and greets and extensive classes, where people present on topics from "how to do this thing safely" to "how to know your own aftercare requirements" to "how to end a relationship honorably and with closure."

Stages are erected for the purposes of displaying the talents of the domly types on submissives. Think of it as an erotic performance, with restraints.

Anyone can submit, as long as they can find someone with toys to dom them.

It is important to notice just how safe this is for a female submissive being invited to perform.

Fail again. I've been to *clubs* where there are such things usually performers who have arranged in advance, and in no way would the top in that case take an audience member on spontaneously. I've been that flogging person, in my case working on a highly experienced male switch with floggers that bore the shit out of him, it was a cool looking visual that wasn't going to trigger or freak anyone out.

You seem to have a hard time with the fantasy/reality divide or the notion that anyone would do this for visual appeal, hotness, flavor, or anything other than your approved rationale.

I don't care what you want to think, but LYING to people in hope of finding someone to believe your crap will not fly.

Events are, IMO- an opinion based on fairly extensive experience learning, teaching, and attending public events from small medium to large - rather than hearsay and fantasy - events are the healthiest and safest way to touch your toes to SM, from what I have seen - to see what it looks like and quietly not have to participate - to talk to people and ask questions and to *not have to be alone with someone* to do this. I have been at these events alone. I have been with my partner. I have been with friends. I've been at events and didn't feel like playing and so I didn't. The end. No pressure, no demands, no harassment.

Keep in mind the submissive will be restrained, and thus unable to do anything to protect herself.

If she is restrained in a public dungeon she has DM's looking out to see if there's anything massively stupid or dangerous being done. She can use a house safeword which will end the scene *no matter what* and she's gotten a pamphlet and the safewords are posted every six feet on the walls most times.

And she can negotiate her *own* fucking risk and scene and be an adult entitled to her sexuality. You have no idea how sexist this ranting of yours is. ADULT. RIGHT TO HER OWN BODY.

Anyone can enter the premises.

Fail/horseshit. Ticketed and wristbanded people who are registered can. Doors are checked very carefully.

No weapons or bottle check is made. No sobriety check is made. Those who come in can be high on anything, and packing anything.

FAIL again, insamuch as there's no particular reason that armed and coked up people would enter this event any more than the hotel's meeting of the regional grain elevator managers down the hallway and to the left. It's not the worst idea, but it's not really anything I'm more freaked out by than usual. If someone's a drunken asshole they WILL be escorted out, though.

All they need is the price of admission.

Bullshit again. Boy you're on a roll. Leather events don't ding people prematurely, all are welcome, however all are equipped with basic etiquette and information - information handed out in giant heavy plastic bags at event start, and breaking the agreements of the event - agreements such as not interfering, gaining consent, and not touching shit that's not yours - and you will be asked to leave. Made to leave.

It is most likely the event itself is illegal. If busted there will likely be charges. If someone with kids is charged, Social Services may get involved.

More bullshit. Events that ticket cooperate with the hotels they are held at, the local laws regarding penetration, contact, and nudity, and generally try to be model guests and citizens, if slightly unconventional in tastes. Because of exactly the issues you bring up - if people were risking their families by going to a Black Rose of Malicious Masquerade kind of event, no one would go.

For this reason it will be with the greatest of reluctance paramedics would be called in the event of an emergency.

The police with even more reluctance.

Bullshit again - I have been at a private party where someone threw her shoulder out and it was ambiguous what was going on and she was breathing shallow- ambulence was called without a second's hesitation.

I've been at large events where police were there to *keep us from being bothered by religious right fanatics" Wave to officer Bob, everyone. Hi officer Bob! Nice uniform Officer Bob!

True, there are Dungeon Monitors, volunteers who are to keep the peace.

But how much of themselves are they willing to risk for the sake of others if they are not even performing a weapons check at the door to protect themselves?

I've always said it is the little things that count the most. I pay attention to the little details like this that add up to a bigger picture.

The Dungeon Monitors are a bluff. If they were serious about safety, they'd check for weapons and drugs and booze and needles and ... you get my drift.

Your obsession with gun crazies is a little insane. I have survived all these SM events and more, without a Ft. Hood type incident in my life thus far. Bad shit can happen, a weapon's check might not be the worst idea in the world regarding guns, but a lot of people enjoy knifeplay. The point of DM's is to be another pair of eyes.

Inattention and inexperience harm people much more often than ill intent at these events. It's really what people look out for.

If anyone can walk in off the street a street gang could walk in off the street.

Even without the street gang, the mob of men themselves could turn on others, in frustration or machismo or whatever.

There are never going to be enough monitors to control such a crowd if it got out of control, and considering what the female submissives are 'advertising' merely by being there, this is not a situation you ever want getting out of control.

Now the lies are so thick I really don't see a point. This is really off the hook silly. I will worry about the Crips next time I flog someone.

So ... why are there no weapons checks?

Good suggestion. Probably because no one really has felt that threatened by weapons at these shindigs any more so than on the subway to GET to them.

 

[BLoved]

horseshit. Fail again. I don't care what you want to think, but LYING to people in hope of finding someone to believe your crap will not fly. And she can negotiate her *own* fucking risk and scene and be an adult entitled to her sexuality. You have no idea how sexist this ranting of yours is. ADULT. RIGHT TO HER OWN BODY. Fail/horseshit. FAIL again Bullshit again. More bullshit. Bullshit again Your obsession with gun crazies is a little insane. Now the lies are so thick I really don't see a point.

~smile~

Always a pleasure watching you knock yourself out, Netzach.

 

[00Syd]

Good post Netz, but it's kind of a lost cause at this point.

ETA: Lost cause status can be determined by the post above mine.

 

[BLoved]

It varies from state to state. For example, in NY, fetish and BDSM parties are perfectly legal and generally accepted. In MA, only a few states over from NY, legally there is no such thing as consensual S&M and so throwing BDSM parties are considerably more risky. There is no federal law that governs this sort of thing, so it's good policy to check in on any pertinent laws whenever visiting another state.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Netzach]

Good post Netz, but it's kind of a lost cause at this point.

ETA: Lost cause status can be determined by the post above mine.

On the off chance that someone who has never been to an event of any scale should be wandering into this cesspool of deluded machismo I'm willing to do due diligence.

 

[Netzach]

I know it's frustrating when someone who has actually flown a plane calls a guy who's played with a simulator twice out on it.

 

[00Syd]

On the off chance that someone who has never been to an event of any scale should be wandering into this cesspool of deluded machismo I'm willing to do due diligence.

That's a good plan. And speaking of events of scale, I'm heading to Shibaricon tomorrow and SO PUMPED OMG. Gigantic events are always awesome, but a gigantic event completely dedicated to rope?

/salivate

/brag

 

[Netzach]

That's a good plan. And speaking of events of scale, I'm heading to Shibaricon tomorrow and SO PUMPED OMG. Gigantic events are always awesome, but a gigantic event completely dedicated to rope?

/salivate

/brag

I am SOOOO jealous, and I wish I'd known, I'd have lobbied a little harder to make it! Have loads of fun, M and I loved this one. Chicago is awesome too, we snuck away from the hotel for breakfast at Svea when it was closer to Andersonville.

If Ellie the Nomad should happen to be doing a class, drop everything to see it.

 

[BLoved]

Good post Netz, but it's kind of a lost cause at this point.

Get the feeling Netzach will say anything to satisfy his/her blood-lust?

 

[00Syd]

I am SOOOO jealous, and I wish I'd known, I'd have lobbied a little harder to make it! Have loads of fun, M and I loved this one.

If Ellie the Nomad should happen to be doing a class, drop everything to see it.

I will keep that in mind!

Seb went last year by himself ('cause I was busy gallivanting around Europe), and hasn't been able to stop talking about it since ("I almost met Claire Adams OMG OMG rope rope rope"), so I figured that I should really try to make it this time around. A whole lot of my friends from both NYC and Boston are going, so I'm pretty darn pumped.

I trust you'll hold down the BL-fort while I'm away

 

[00Syd]

Get the feeling Netzach will say anything to satisfy his/her blood-lust?

please.

 

[Netzach]

Sadly, bloviated, Etoile and RR can both attest that if I'm hiding junk in my pants I'm doing it with panache, like Lady Gaga.
I do like the blood lust line, though, I'll use that.

 

[Netzach]

I will keep that in mind!

Seb went last year by himself ('cause I was busy gallivanting around Europe), and hasn't been able to stop talking about it since ("I almost met Claire Adams OMG OMG rope rope rope"), so I figured that I should really try to make it this time around. A whole lot of my friends from both NYC and Boston are going, so I'm pretty darn pumped.

I trust you'll hold down the BL-fort while I'm away

LOL sorry, running naked in the woods or working on projects, can't decide.

Maybe next year. I bet you are cute as fuck in hemp.

 

[00Syd]

LOL sorry, running naked in the woods or working on projects, can't decide.

Maybe next year. I bet you are cute as fuck in hemp.

Hell yeah! And Seb uses jute, to be specific

 

[RuReal]

BLoved you live in Ontario correct? You know a province in Canada. I will tell you this in no uncertain terms in Canada BDSM parties are very legal. You might not Like Netzach's approach, but he is really only being more blunt than I am. So basically you have taken one event from 14 years ago and used that as your slide rule to judge.

That bothers me a great deal. As so many things in the world has changed in the last 14 years. Pick an object. T.V is a great example what did it look like 14 years ago and what does it look like now? In addition the same rules seemed to exist back then as they do now.

There was a very good point brought up before. Why are you so worried about violence is there something you have run into that leads you to think one cannot walk down the street or attend any kind of gathering without worrying about a gun? This is Canada and while the gun per person ratio is higher than it is in the states due to the legal limitations guns are not a common thing unless you are in a rural setting. Yes most houses out there that have older relatives will have a gun or four to five normally of the hunting variety and in a lot of cases half those people forget about them.

Where is all of this fear coming from out of you? Fear is not a suitable tool for judgement. How about I make you an offer? If you ever think of going to an event again so that you can see what is going on contact me and I will point you in the right direction. Considering that the events require preregistration I will point you to the right people as well. Other than that feel free to sit back and observe what is occurring there.

 

[Netzach]

Hell yeah! And Seb uses jute, to be specific

ooooo an iconoclast among iconoclasts, nice? Does he prep it himself? I am too lazy and have twistedmonk stock. Need some more actually - playing with big boys I have all this 3/4. Heavy clunky.

 

[Netzach]

BLoved you live in Ontario correct? You know a province in Canada. I will tell you this in no uncertain terms in Canada BDSM parties are very legal. You might not Like Netzach's approach, but he is really only being more blunt than I am. So basically you have taken one event from 14 years ago and used that as your slide rule to judge.

That bothers me a great deal. As so many things in the world has changed in the last 14 years. Pick an object. T.V is a great example what did it look like 14 years ago and what does it look like now? In addition the same rules seemed to exist back then as they do now.

There was a very good point brought up before. Why are you so worried about violence is there something you have run into that leads you to think one cannot walk down the street or attend any kind of gathering without worrying about a gun? This is Canada and while the gun per person ratio is higher than it is in the states due to the legal limitations guns are not a common thing unless you are in a rural setting. Yes most houses out there that have older relatives will have a gun or four to five normally of the hunting variety and in a lot of cases half those people forget about them.

Where is all of this fear coming from out of you? Fear is not a suitable tool for judgement. How about I make you an offer? If you ever think of going to an event again so that you can see what is going on contact me and I will point you in the right direction. Considering that the events require preregistration I will point you to the right people as well. Other than that feel free to sit back and observe what is occurring there.

You are helpful and kind.

A few clarifications: I'm a she. My first public event was in the gun-crazed Midwest, in MN, the second state to embrace concealed carry, and it was a little over 12 years ago. I was 22.5, scared out of my mind, and made to feel relatively welcome and comfortable. Without being raped abused or sold off to wandering tuscan raiders in the first ten minutes.

 

[RuReal]

You are helpful and kind.

A few clarifications: I'm a she. My first public event was in the gun-crazed Midwest, in MN, the second state to embrace concealed carry, and it was a little over 12 years ago. I was 22.5, scared out of my mind, and made to feel relatively welcome and comfortable. Without being raped abused or sold off to wandering tuscan raiders in the first ten minutes.

Sorry about my mistake in your sex, but a user name does not say and I had no real interest in finding out what sex you are. Not part of the conversation and all of that.

Nothing wrong with guns it is the people that use them for wrong things that are the issue. Hmm I wonder if that holds true for other things as well BLoved? I have to say I was not scared at my first event the wife was though. She was affraid of offending someone or breaking a rule without knowing.

To date BDSM people have to be some of the most careing people that I know. Hell that got me giving out hugs and for me that is a huge thing as I am normally not a casual toucher.

Nice to meet you.

 

[BLoved]

BLoved you live in Ontario correct? You know a province in Canada. I will tell you this in no uncertain terms in Canada BDSM parties are very legal. You might not Like Netzach's approach, but he is really only being more blunt than I am. So basically you have taken one event from 14 years ago and used that as your slide rule to judge.

It's called "spot-checking", taking a random example and analyzing the processes involved.

I see no reason to assume the one random example is atypical.

All we have is the word of casual players and their advocates that it isn't typical.

And considering Netzach's obsession with discrediting me at all costs, it is reasonable to assume that claims are being made with no basis in fact.

Whether it is typical or not, the example I've provided gives something for novices to consider when making a decision about whether to attend, whether to participate.

Without that example, all a novice has to go on is your word, and that of Netzach that all public parties everywhere and at all times are "safe".

All except this one example which you and others are trying very hard to paint as either a tissue of lies (which it isn't) or is an exception which no longer exists.

Unfortunately those who wish to portray casual 'bdsm' as "safe" have a vested interest in presenting the rosiest of pictures. Not much fun attending a party where the same worn-out regulars are the only ones in attendance.

The need for fresh meat is not to be under-estimated with those so jaded as to attend these things.

I, on the other hand, have no vested interest in skewing the results. I do not need a constant supply of fresh meat. My quest only requires one Beloved, and that is it.

So out of all those I might influence, only one will have me, and the rest will be seeking their own beloveds.

Strategies

Paint a Rosy Picture

Control the medium, and you control the message.

The casual community has learned this lesson well.

By ensuring they are in positions of control: site owners, group owners, moderators, etc they are in a position to ensure only the message they want others to hear will be heard, and no other.

From this position they can make any claim, and as they have the authority to control what is heard, dissent is never heard.

And anyone who doesn't get with the program can be made an example of for others.

So now that we know what won't be heard, what do we hear?

We hear that everything is perfect in the casual community. Everything is a munch or a party. Everyone is safe, and do be doubly sure, there are dungeon monitors.

Safe and fun, that is what we hear about casual communities ... because that is what the casual communities who control the medium want us to hear.

We hear a lot about techniques, but no one talks about ethics.

If ethics comes up at all, it is the mantra "I can do anything I want, its my life."

Remember this. It will come up often.

Safe, fun, and self-indulging, this is the appearance of casual play in public.

What could appeal more to a young female novice submissive?

-- Excerpt from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love"

 

[00Syd]

ooooo an iconoclast among iconoclasts, nice? Does he prep it himself? I am too lazy and have twistedmonk stock. Need some more actually - playing with big boys I have all this 3/4. Heavy clunky.

He doesn't prep it himself, but a friend of ours recently (Dov, know him?) bought a huge amount of untreated jute for super cheap, and treated it himself without much effort, so now he's thinking about doing that. And it's about time! He really could use some new rope, it's all getting super kinked (har har) and un-twisted. I'm going to try to keep him keen on this plan, and make every effort to remind him that buying a lot of untreated rope is much more economical than buying any of the pretty, and very expensive, rope for sale at the con.

 

[Netzach]

It's called "spot-checking", taking a random example and analyzing the processes involved.

I see no reason to assume the one random example is atypical.

All we have is the word of casual players and their advocates that it isn't typical.

And considering Netzach's obsession with discrediting me at all costs, it is reasonable to assume that claims are being made with no basis in fact.

Whether it is typical or not, the example I've provided gives something for novices to consider when making a decision about whether to attend, whether to participate.

Without that example, all a novice has to go on is your word, and that of Netzach that all public parties everywhere and at all times are "safe".

All except this one example which you and others are trying very hard to paint as either a tissue of lies (which it isn't) or is an exception which no longer exists.

Unfortunately those who wish to portray casual 'bdsm' as "safe" have a vested interest in presenting the rosiest of pictures. Not much fun attending a party where the same worn-out regulars are the only ones in attendance.

The need for fresh meat is not to be under-estimated with those so jaded as to attend these things.

I, on the other hand, have no vested interest in skewing the results. I do not need a constant supply of fresh meat. My quest only requires one Beloved, and that is it.

So out of all those I might influence, only one will have me, and the rest will be seeking their own beloveds.

Yadda yar yar yar, I never at any point said ALL SM EVENTS WORLDWIDE ARE SAFE AS Q-TIPS SOFT ENDS. I said that I've never seen one be remotely as you characterize, and in 12 years of wandering around I'm confident you are full of it. If bad things happened to anyone at the events I was at it was unsupervised and private behind the closed doors of hotel rooms not in the public event. People harm each other and do mean things - it's life. Public play *mitigates* risk.

I said that a public event is by and large *safer* than meeting people in the woods or off the back page of the city paper or off cragislist or even fetlife where there's no DM and no public aspect. Just like it's safer to walk on a sidewalk than down the center line - bad things can still happen and there is no magic land where all the sharp corners have been filed off for you.

If you still refuse to acknowledge the value of risk mitigation, I wonder to what ends. And who's really interested in fresh meat. I'm not on the hunt for a beloved, after all, full roster.