Punishments and safewords

[chy_girl]

This question was posted on another site and quickly digressed into not a discussion. And since it has been brought up in the (far) periphery of a recent personal experience, it seems like a good time for an actual discussion on it.

The question is this: During the course of a punishment/disciplinary action (not a funishment or play discipline) should the pyl have the option of safe wording and should it be respected?

 

[cloud_leopard]

In my opinion, yes, if the safeword is being used because there is a limit that has been reached. Yes, punishment is different than a regular session, but a person still has limits, and personally, if I called a safeword, there would be a reason behind it, not just to get out of responsibility.

Let's say that in the course of punishment, a trigger was hit. That would absolutely need to be respected. If it were not respected, that could lead to a difficulty in the relationship.

 

[Primalex]

The question is this: During the course of a punishment/disciplinary action (not a funishment or play discipline) should the pyl have the option of safe wording and should it be respected?

I don't get the question.

If there is a safeword, why should it not be respected? Why make a safeword in the first place if it has no meaning?

Or do you want to know if there are exceptions when an established safeword can not be used? No, there are not. It defeats the whole purpose of it - if it's upon the sole discretion of the PYL to determine if the current situation is "safeword compatible" or not, then it's ultimately no different than the sole discretion to just ignore a safeword any time, thus eliminating the safeword completely.

Edit:
Even if the safeword is used just "to get out of the responsibility", it does not change its validity. There are a lot of options for the PYL when this does happen, but ignoring it is not one.

Edit2:
And this from a RAKer.

 

[Netzach]

What Primalex said. If you're going to bother with one, then it's there. If a bottom is using one to lessen the burden of a punishment, well that's vital info about

the punishment

the relationship

the infraction

isn't it?

 

[fuckmeat]

So... I'm assuming that by 'pyl' you mean sub? I usually hang out on SRPs and just lurk here in silent awe of you all.

That said...

I think it would depend on how well the punisher and punishee know each other. I wouldn't expect to be able to use a safeword unless I had an exceptional reason for doing so. If I did safeword though, I would absolutely expect that to be respected because if there wasn't an exceptional circumstance, there would obviously have been a breakdown in communication between what I can handle and what another believes I can handle.

If that makes sense.

Unless a safeword arrangement has been done away with altogether, I think it should always be respected. If a sub thinks he/she can mitigate a punishment by crying wolf, there are clearly bigger issues going on than whatever infraction was committed.

Also, I think emotional state and even a woman's cycle can have a great impact on punishment/pain tolerance. That's not something a dom will always intuitively pick up on.

 

[FloggingMolly]

For me, I have a safe-word, but punishment is excluded from it. This is because punishment is usually at a set level of pain, that we both know I can handle. What varies is the number of strokes I get depending on the degree of rule-breaking.

This isn't to say that for others this is the right thing to do, just what we do.

 

[Primalex]

For me, I have a safe-word, but punishment is excluded from it. This is because punishment is usually at a set level of pain, that we both know I can handle. What varies is the number of strokes I get depending on the degree of rule-breaking.

Reading this I noticed I forgot to answer the first part of the question:
"Should the pyl have a safeword for punishment in the first place?"

It's a tricky one. There are some persons I would never play with/punish without a safeword. I base this decision on a lot of things and one important one is the probability they might get me in legal troubles. For example, people that expressed an unhealthy amount of jealousy one time or the other or are otherwise hotheaded. A charge of domestic violence is just a phone call away and the pyl can't drop it when she changes her mind later.

 

[chy_girl]

I don't get the question.

If there is a safeword, why should it not be respected? Why make a safeword in the first place if it has no meaning?

Or do you want to know if there are exceptions when an established safeword can not be used? No, there are not. It defeats the whole purpose of it - if it's upon the sole discretion of the PYL to determine if the current situation is "safeword compatible" or not, then it's ultimately no different than the sole discretion to just ignore a safeword any time, thus eliminating the safeword completely.

Edit:
Even if the safeword is used just "to get out of the responsibility", it does not change its validity. There are a lot of options for the PYL when this does happen, but ignoring it is not one.

Edit2:
And this from a RAKer.

One of the arguments made on the other site (shortly before it descended into the land of "You're a poopy-head!... No you are!") was that a pyl shouldn't be able to safe-word out of a punishment because it's a disciplinary action brought on by the pyl's own action or inaction and it's the PYL's responsibility to provide the appropriate incentive to not do it again.

My theory is that when if anything gets to a spot where I voluntarily safe-word it needs to be listened to. And that means the emotional pain of the punishment as well as the physical.

But the argument was also brought up about pyl's who safe-word way to soon on everything and the pyl's who would safe-word simply to be done with the punishment.

I'm just curious about what perspective others see this from since the realm of punishment is new to me in practice.

 

[chy_girl]

For me, I have a safe-word, but punishment is excluded from it. This is because punishment is usually at a set level of pain, that we both know I can handle. What varies is the number of strokes I get depending on the degree of rule-breaking.

This isn't to say that for others this is the right thing to do, just what we do.

If it was someone you weren't as familiar with though, like at the beginning of the relationship, would you want a safe-word for punishment?

 

[DVS]

If it was someone you weren't as familiar with though, like at the beginning of the relationship, would you want a safe-word for punishment?

I'm a Dom and I'd always suggest a safe word. If it was a new relationship, I'd for sure want a safe word. I don't care if it's punishment or what.

Sure, I do understand relationships will be different and after time, you get to know someone better and the level of trust is higher. But in a new relationship, I'd say the safe word is necessary.

I'm not a sub, but it would be a bit scary needing a safe word in a new relationship. What if the Dom didn't respect safe words? What if he got carried away, really involved or the heat of his anger got the best of him?

I don't think I could give anyone that much trust. I envy someone who can trust someone that much. I guess I'll never be a sub.

 

[WriterDom]

This question was posted on another site and quickly digressed into not a discussion. And since it has been brought up in the (far) periphery of a recent personal experience, it seems like a good time for an actual discussion on it.

The question is this: During the course of a punishment/disciplinary action (not a funishment or play discipline) should the pyl have the option of safe wording and should it be respected?

Refer to the casual bdsm rule book.

13-4.2

2. After making the stroke, if the sub is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the sub is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

Well, wrong rule, but it's in there somewhere.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't think a safeword is necessary, period. A safeword never stopped anybody if they wanted to keep going badly enough, AND it adds an unnecessary layer to communication. Consider the two exchanges below.

"Pineapple!"

"What's wrong?"

"My leg is asleep."

*PYL moves pyl into more comfortable position*

or

"My leg is asleep."

*PYL moves pyl into more comfortable position*

The leg asleep example is, of course, a fairly innocuous one, which, under regular circumstances, wouldn't matter if it took a little longer to explain the problem. But I'll use another example from my actual life. I don't have a safeword, but I do have a shoulder injury which makes it impossible to stand for very long with my hands bound behind me.

"I'm about to pass out."

*Owner person(s) move(s) me to a place where I can sit*

vs.

"Pineapple."

"What's wrong?"

"I'm about to--"

*Thud*

Safewords just aren't the safety nets they're made out to be. Again, if someone wants to keep going whether the pyl likes it or not, a safeword's not going to stop him/her. Also, I've been around people who'll do anything and everything they want up to the point of the safeword. And, really, that's just kinda creepy. I mean, Heaven forbid you use common sense, as long as that safeword's there, whether or not the pyl is capable of saying or remembering it at the time. Many of us don't care for the nuclear option of the safeword, either.

I know the standard response is that some people like resistance play and use the "No, please don't" line when they really mean "No, please don't stop." And that's fine. BUT if you can't tell the difference between play and "Oh, fuck, stop now, asshole!", then maybe you shouldn't be playing big kids' games.

Yeah, I know that's not a popular opinion.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think a safeword is necessary, period. A safeword never stopped anybody if they wanted to keep going badly enough, AND it adds an unnecessary layer to communication. Consider the two exchanges below.

"Pineapple!"

"What's wrong?"

"My leg is asleep."

*PYL moves pyl into more comfortable position*

or

"My leg is asleep."

*PYL moves pyl into more comfortable position*

The leg asleep example is, of course, a fairly innocuous one, which, under regular circumstances, wouldn't matter if it took a little longer to explain the problem. But I'll use another example from my actual life. I don't have a safeword, but I do have a shoulder injury which makes it impossible to stand for very long with my hands bound behind me.

"I'm about to pass out."

*Owner person(s) move(s) me to a place where I can sit*

vs.

"Pineapple."

"What's wrong?"

"I'm about to--"

*Thud*

Safewords just aren't the safety nets they're made out to be. Again, if someone wants to keep going whether the pyl likes it or not, a safeword's not going to stop him/her. Also, I've been around people who'll do anything and everything they want up to the point of the safeword. And, really, that's just kinda creepy. I mean, Heaven forbid you use common sense, as long as that safeword's there, whether or not the pyl is capable of saying or remembering it at the time. Many of us don't care for the nuclear option of the safeword, either.

I know the standard response is that some people like resistance play and use the "No, please don't" line when they really mean "No, please don't stop." And that's fine. BUT if you can't tell the difference between play and "Oh, fuck, stop now, asshole!", then maybe you shouldn't be playing big kids' games.

Yeah, I know that's not a popular opinion.

Um, if you're really playing big kid's games it's often *very* hard to tell the difference between no no no and no, really stop - even if you know someone pretty well. The job of Top is not a very easy one when you're really pushing and the further you get into must be psychic the more risk you are personally shouldering. I don't hold it against anyone for wanting to minimize it.

I also prefer plain English, but I do like the periodic foray into resistance, and it's usually with people I'm not intimately involved with, but rather good friends. I like to protect them and me with an out that's instantly identifiable.

 

[BiBunny]

Um, if you're really playing big kid's games it's often *very* hard to tell the difference between no no no and no, really stop.

Is it? That's not been my experience. There's usually a frantic quality to the voice and movements when one really means stop that's not present otherwise. At least with the people I've played with.

 

[Netzach]

Is it? That's not been my experience. There's usually a frantic quality to the voice and movements when one really means stop that's not present otherwise. At least with the people I've played with.

I've had people do that on me and ABSOLUTELY insist that this means press on. I've had people look to all the external world like a freakout and just be hitting the happy place.

 

[BiBunny]

I've had people do that on me and ABSOLUTELY insist that this means press on.

Huh. I revise my opinion, then.

Safewords are not necessary under most circumstances and aren't necessary at all for yours truly (when on the bottom).

 

[Netzach]

Huh. I revise my opinion, then.

Safewords are not necessary under most circumstances and aren't necessary at all for yours truly.

I agree that they're over-relied on. Especially because bottoms generally hate hate hate
HATE to cut a scene short and will push past tolerance sometimes out of not wanting to use a stop word.

 

[chy_girl]

I know the standard response is that some people like resistance play and use the "No, please don't" line when they really mean "No, please don't stop." And that's fine. BUT if you can't tell the difference between play and "Oh, fuck, stop now, asshole!", then maybe you shouldn't be playing big kids' games.

Yeah, I know that's not a popular opinion.

I get the purpose of safe-words and I can understand how it would be an efficient tool in public/casual play. Personally I hate them and I hate using them... Makes me feel like I've lost somehow.

But I also recognize that I'm the queen of understatements. Most people... Well, no one, don't seem to realize that *dirty/WTF look* + "Dude, that hurts..." is my equivalent to "OW! Bloody fucker, knock it off!"

*shrugs*
What's a girl to do?

 

[BiBunny]

I agree that they're over-relied on. Especially because bottoms generally hate hate hate
HATE to cut a scene short and will push past tolerance sometimes out of not wanting to use a stop word.

Yep. I'd rather say, "Could you give me a minute?" than to say the magic word and stop it altogether. Not that it matters; I don't have one, anyway.

 

[Netzach]

A casual overuse of safewords will win you a spot on the do not play with list for me, personally. I like to see some struggle and tension. A complete inability to give me feedback or input, however, will also result in same - I don't like people who zone off so far beyond no that they're also out of the range of yes and it's a one-way energy suck.

 

[BiBunny]

I get the purpose of safe-words and I can understand how it would be an efficient tool in public/casual play. Personally I hate them and I hate using them... Makes me feel like I've lost somehow.

But I also recognize that I'm the queen of understatements. Most people... Well, no one, don't seem to realize that *dirty/WTF look* + "Dude, that hurts..." is my equivalent to "OW! Bloody fucker, knock it off!"

*shrugs*
What's a girl to do?

When I actually had one, I never used it. I think part of the reason I've quit playing with random people is that I'm so used to my partners being very intuitive toward me. Other people's bumbling just annoys me, and the annoyance has gotten to the point that it's just not worth it anymore. If my Owners aren't around when I want the itch scratched, I'd rather pull out the old if you want it done right, you've gotta do it yourself saw.

Maybe tell these people that when you say it hurts, it means back the fuck off? Or pull a Bunny and take whatever they're hitting you with away and whack 'em a good one.

Yes, I'm a bitch.

 

[kinky_caligirl]

Yep. I'd rather say, "Could you give me a minute?" than to say the magic word and stop it altogether. Not that it matters; I don't have one, anyway.

Safe words have thier purpose. i.e. S/M, slave is begging you to stop may even say it in a nice calm manner, Does master know if he really means it? that they want to stop or is it just part of the game? a safe word is so there is no miss comunication.

thats why you have two. one for I am stopping this altogether, untie me(or whatever) and leave me alone.

Two: is for if you still want to keep playing but don't like or am uncomfortable with it. then they stop that specific act and move one.

I have always had 2 and only have used the lesser once.
they are there JUST in case.

 

[chy_girl]

When I actually had one, I never used it. I think part of the reason I've quit playing with random people is that I'm so used to my partners being very intuitive toward me. Other people's bumbling just annoys me, and the annoyance has gotten to the point that it's just not worth it anymore. If my Owners aren't around when I want the itch scratched, I'd rather pull out the old if you want it done right, you've gotta do it yourself saw.

Maybe tell these people that when you say it hurts, it means back the fuck off? Or pull a Bunny and take whatever they're hitting you with away and whack 'em a good one.

Yes, I'm a bitch.

We solved the problem by giving me a cat toy on a string. I just throw it at them for our version of "red". For "yellow" (which I hate more than red) I can call time out. Which seemed far more appropriate given that we're playing a kind of game.

Admittedly, the taking it and hitting them back has crossed my mind. As has taking the toy very pointed packing it back in the toy bag before telling them "You're not allowed to play with that anymore tonight..."

 

[BiBunny]

We solved the problem by giving me a cat toy on a string. I just throw it at them for our version of "red". For "yellow" (which I hate more than red) I can call time out. Which seemed far more appropriate given that we're playing a kind of game.

Admittedly, the taking it and hitting them back has crossed my mind. As has taking the toy very pointed packing it back in the toy bag before telling them "You're not allowed to play with that anymore tonight..."

I may have just realized why I don't fit in with the public "scene," LOL.

 

[flasubm]

From my limited experience in this area, for the few times that my wife and I play to a major degree we use green, yellow, red. She is especially apprehensive about being too rough with me so this works well. This way I have the option of stopping her (I could never see myself doing this under any circumstance) asking her to go easy or to keep going if I see her backing off. Never used the words and she hasn't either.

There is nothing like feeling the pain three days later.