The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Stella_Omega]

I ask direct questions.

You ask rhetorical questions.

 

[BLoved]

I'm curious how you would suggest meeting people within the community without actively participating in some aspect of it. It's nice to imagine that we all stumble across "Love" in the day to day, but rather absurd to assume so. You have to put yourself out there in some form or fashion to meet someone. No it doesn't have to be in public groups, but every form of introduction has potential for abuse.

I met my wife and my beloved through personal ads I ran. When I met my wife internet personals didn't seem to me to be a very viable method. I ran an ad in a downtown weekly that appealed to open-minded liberals like me.

My beloved found me through my collarme ad.

Another point of concern for your "Love" theory, is that if I practiced it, I wouldn't try any aspect of bdsm until I was in a committed relationship. How many people approach the lifestyle thinking they want one thing, but actually hate it, or wanting something else? So often those new to the scene think they want to be a 24/7 slave when after exploration they are actually a bi-curious switch with a bondage fetish (for instance). I'd hate to figure that out after I was in Love with someone.

If you are 'falling in love' because you share kinks then I doubt there is sufficient basis to call it "love".

I admire and respect my beloved's strength of character, her artisitic skills and most of all because she's endured so much and retained her faith in love.

She is a remarkable woman worthy of my respect and love.

I've developed my skills as a master through three intimate relationships spanning more than 20 of the past 27 years. There is little I do not know and that which I do not know I deem unsafe to begin with. As neither of us wish to pursue a casual relationship with anyone, I feel confident that whatever direction she wishes to explore, I can accomodate her.

 

[chy_girl]

You continue to ignore the caution exercised by those in love when the well-being of their beloved is at stake (assuming they are not completely stupid, such as the individual who electrocuted his wife). Given the scarcity of such incidents, I assume most people are not nearly as stupid and are far more cautious.

OR... Even the people who are strictly monogamous in sex, D/s, AND B/D are smart enough to go to an experienced third party who will teach them. Again, not unheard of. Not uncommon. Defiantly not frowned upon.

And I can't possibly be the only one who gets in that mood where I just want someone to flog the hell out of me.

Sadly, you have lots of company. A sign of our times that so many are dysfunctional.

You realize that, physiologically speaking, people who get in that mood where they want to go run 30 miles are "dysfunctional" too?

Perhaps you should really consider doing some research on the B/D end of things, because I think you're missing some pertinent information to actually understanding what it is.

Who ever said I'm not good enough to love?!?

Everyone is "good enough" to love. That doesn't mean my Mistress and Sir Love me or that I Love my Mistress and Sir. But there are many other aspects that are just as important, if not more so, than "Love" in our relationship. Things such as caring regard, respect of the individual as well as the various personal boundaries, shared interests, friendship, acknowledgment of personal responsibility to the relationship, open and honest communication, a willingness to learn and expand, and affection. On top of which, we actually like each other.

So they view you as good enough to beat, but not good enough for them to love you.

There. Went ahead and put back in the part you forgot to include. You know, the part about having things like respect, positive regard, communication, friendship and affection.

And I am absolutely delighted to say that they DO find me good enough to beat on a regular basis. Which is actually quite the complement for a pain slut, given how heavy handed Mistress can be.

Better to be beaten by people who don't love you than to not be beaten at all?

In what way is that not dysfunctional?

Better to enter a clearly communicated BDSM relationship based on mutual interests and founded on things like caring regard, respect, friendship, personal responsibility, communication, and affection than to continue to live in an abusive past waiting for someone to "save me" from myself.

If "dysfunction" is such a worry of yours, perhaps you should spend more time working on your girlfriend's dysfunction and less worrying about a board full of people who can function quite well all on their own. Just think, overlooking the needs of your beloved for a whole group of subbie-type people who are already able and willing to tell the big, mean Dom/mely types to fuck off.

And a note to your girlfriend: Love does some great things in the world, but it doesn't mean jack when it comes to PTSD. Let you boyfriend love you and let the counselor help you because love isn't in their job description. It can actually lose them their license.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Chy-girl I am not your top, but;

Stop now.

This guy is a total manipulator, and you have better people to be manipulated by.

Put the asshat on ignore, and enjoy a pretty song instead;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoQQ-mAQeE

 

[BLoved]

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

~smile~

So a discussion involving opposing points of view serves no purpose unless one side or the other concedes?

Personally I think the lurkers are the ones most likely to benefit from this discussion. They can weigh the pros and cons and judge for themselves their own path aware that there is something more to bdsm than munches and play parties.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

My beloved found me through my collarme ad.

/END THREAD

 

[intothewoods]

I do not limit my definition for healthy emotional relationships to those who are monogamous. I accept that closed poly relationships can be just as healthy as monogamous relationships.



From "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love":

---
Partner Exchange (Wife Swapping)

I must make clear that there are two very different types of people who engage in this practice.

There are those who form close friendships with others and with whom they share sexual intimacy. These are not casual, loveless relationships, tho' it is unlikely they are full-blown romances. These are people who care for each other deeply. What they share is not a one-night stand, but part of an evolving relationship.

And then there is the other type.

These are couples where the dom wants to watch his submissive with another woman, or a couple, or for whatever reason finds his sexual arousal enhanced from such situations.

There is little or no contact with each other except for these events.

The submissive might well find herself involved to show her love for her dom, or because she's promised to do anything, etc.

The risk for her is mostly the emotional damage done to her.
---

This sounds like something out of erotic fiction, and not reality. I'm sure such people exist, but they're not common. Certainly not all that succesful. I've been a single woman who has been approached by couples. Why would I have any interest in screwing or playing with someone who is going to be unfriendly or dismissive of me the next day?

As I have been arguing in favour of love-based bdsm and have opposed casual 'bdsm' for a lot longer than you, I suspect I have greater insight into the manner in which casual advocates advance their agenda.

Furthermore, the basis for my objection is the emotional damage done to those who have no idea what they are getting into (and as the casual community does not recognize a link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding, that would include everyone involved in casual play).

Casual players are in denial regarding this link, and encourage novices amongst others to participate in dysfunctional behaviour where denial is the outcome if they are to remain in the casual community.

You don't know me, and you have no idea how long I've been involved in the public scene. Besides my own experience, I have friends who have been involved for decades. All of my friends cultivate relationships. The only people I know who sound remotely like the people you describe are outlyers in the public scene.

As to the forums you mentioned in another post, no one requires references to post here. Some posters do recommend that pyls ask for references, but you can place an ad or meet people online at collarme, fetlife, craigslist or here without any references.

Finally, I have discussed my monogamous relationship at length with my friends in the scene (some of whom are also monogamous). I have gone to parties and not played. There is zero pressure on me to do so. If I attend alone as a woman, will I get hit on? Sure. I just say no thank you. And frankly, it doesn't happen all that often because people get to know you and know what you're open to. Often they ask mutual friends before approaching. There are monogamous couples, closed poly couples, open poly couples, and open single and ready to mingle folks. We are united as a community because we are into kink, not because we are into casual play/fucking.

 

[BLoved]

no, it is NOT a description of true love.
what it is, is YOUR PERSONAL DESCRIPTION/EXPERIENCE of what YOU feel was true love.
and your personal description of that true love applies only to YOU - it does not apply to any other person.
my own description/experience of true love is very different to yours, as is i suspect, everyone else's here.

this applies equally to what you describe as 'abusive'.
what seems abusive to you personally may not seem that way to another - but in your arrogance here on this thread (and in others) you apparently think that you alone have the answers to what is right or wrong.

(similarly, every other person here could make the same claim..... if their lifestyle choices work for them, they could make the claim - as you do - that YOUR views on BDSM without 'true love' are incorrect and their way is the only way to go!)

And which of you wishes to define "love" as including "abuse"?

 

[Stella_Omega]

And which of you wishes to define "love" as including "abuse"?

have you stopped beating your wife?

 

[BLoved]

So, although people have problems, you have decided that since you can't help them all, you won't try to help any?

I said "I realize I cannot resolve this issue for everyone, and so I do not try."

When did "everyone" become synonymous with "anyone"?

I help those I can.

But you removed all your works.

Yes, because the vote-rigging conducted by the casual community rendered them incapable of serving their purpose with the artificially low rating the casual community gave them.

But you removed all your works, and just said you weren't going to help people resolve issues?

There are those so wrapped up in their cycles of self-destruction they are beyond the ability of my words to help them.

That doesn't mean everyone is that far gone.

Now I am getting very confused ... Time for a vodka tonic, I think.

Perhaps english is not your native tongue.

 

[chy_girl]

Chy-girl I am not your top, but;

Stop now.

This guy is a total manipulator, and you have better people to be manipulated by.

Put the asshat on ignore, and enjoy a pretty song instead;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WoQQ-mAQeE

*looks down and scuffs toe in dirt*

I know, but the lack of logic is driving me insane. It's like trying to have a discussion with my special needs, reactive attachment disorder teenager.

<ADD moment>
.... Ironically, the best book I found for RAD was titled "When Love Is Not Enough." Go figure...
</ADD moment>

*wonders off to listen to the song*

 

[BLoved]

I saw that CM quoted this, and I know this will probably get some obvious comments from some, but this brought up something that I felt a need to share anyway.

I've never been into humiliation, but I was curious about TPE and moving from sub to slave. I met some one who shared a lot of the same interests that I did and was looking to own a slave and participate in a TPE type relationship. But I started noticing that my personality was changing.

I slowly lost confidence, which was weird because after my ex husband and I split I found a lot of confidence and was completely secure in who I am. As my confidence started to become shakie, I started asking about some of the activities that he kept promising me we would do.

He kept promising and holding what I wanted up like a carrot. If I did this then he would do that, but I had to earn it. I could only get this if I earned it. Which in most situations I'm okay with, but the things he was asking of me were imposible to meet. I was never going to earn what I wanted, and because of the way he would fraze things I started to believe that I wasn't worth the little things that I asked for, the things that were agreed that I would recieve at the begining of the relationship.

I was able to pull away from this person. And yes, he was very obviously a preditor and some one who was just looking to get his way and could have given a fuck about me. But I was convinced at the begining that he cared for me, and because of him I connected to some one I consider my best friend, and I wouldn't have connected to this person if it weren't for this preditor.

Three years later I am back to my full confidence, but I still have things that trigger that very bad space I was in when this "master" was in my life. It's not a situation I would wish on anyone, and because of that I have talked a lot about that relationship here on the boards so I won't go into any more details unless some one wants to PM me.

The quote just made me think about my situation and how much I wish that I can help anyone not have that same experience.

Thank you for sharing.

I understand that wish to help others avoid abuse. In the two plus years I was seeking my beloved there were many who approached me seeking a relationship, yet betraying just how much they'd suffered from the abuse of others.

Trust issues, issues regarding love ... I helped as best I could, but clearly they were not ready to love or be loved.

It was one of the reasons I wrote "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love".

 

[BLoved]

http://www.nlaidvproject.us/html/index.php

NLA-I DVP Events

Fallen Hosts Special Events for Sexual Assault Awareness Month

April is National Sexual Assault Awareness Month and Fallen Angels on Second Life is hosting special events during the week of April 4-10, 2010 to raise awareness of abuse in BDSM relationships and to raise funds for the National Leather Association's Domestic Violence Project.

Please support this important cause by joining us during this week for discussions on abuse in BDSM, how to recognize, how to stop it, how to avoid it as well as fund raising events.

Elcca (NLA-I DVP committee member) and I will both be in attendance and helping with discussions. All events are Second Life time.

Schedule of Events:

Sunday @ 8pm (4/4)

Candlelight Vigil for Victims of Abuse

Main Courtyard



Monday @ 5pm

Discussion - Emotional Abuse

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Fallen Garden



Monday @ 7pm (4/5)

Sub Discussion Group - Top 10 Red Flags

Elandra Queller

Garden



Tuesday @ 9am (4/6)

Know the Difference

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Fallen Garden



Tuesday @ 7pm (4/6)

Discussion Group - Abuse or Healthy BDSM,

Eldric Westland

Fallen Lounge



Wed @8am (4/7)

Toxic Relationships

Renzo Goodliffe

Fallen Garden



Wed @ 5:30pm (4/7)

If You Suspect Abuse...

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)



Thursday @ 9am (4/8)

Consent, Limits and Rights

Cat Sadayappan

Fallen Garden



Thursday @ 7pm (4/8)

Q&A with Serpahina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Cat Sadayappan

Fallen Lounge



Friday @ 5pm (4/9)

Physical Abuse

(NLA-I DVP)



Friday @ 7pm (4/9)

Dom Discussion - Crossing the Line

Eldric Westland

Secret Location!



Saturday @ 1pm (4/10)

Red Flags - Are You Listening?

Seikiji Kitalpha

Fallen Garden



Saturday @ 6pm (4/10)

Healthy BDSM Dungeon Party

Fallen Dungeon



Ongoing (4/4-4/10)

Charity Auction (closes 9pm Saturday)

Art Exhibit of BDSM images by Allyson Firehawk (location TBA)

If they don't link intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding, it's all pretty much self-serving, isn't it.

 

[BLoved]

This is a bit much. Your posts are full of assumptions, and you also behave as though your worldview is superior to everyone else's.

My paradigm is based on 30,000 years of evolution that has produced the most successful species on the planet.

The casual paradigm is based on less than fifty years of experimentation and the victims are not hard to find if you are willing to demonstrate a willingness to listen.

 

[Netzach]

I ask direct questions. No doubt they are difficult for those in denial.

And since self-esteem is demonstrated through the choices a person makes, it is only to be expected that questions regarding self-esteem would be based on their choices.



I am not here to help those who have chosen a dysfunctional lifestyle.

I am here to help those who have not yet made that decision, or have not been so damaged by such a choice that they cannot make a different choice.

Those addicted to their cycles of self-destruction are beyond my ability to help.



Spare me your self-serving indignation.

Netzach: "A lot of people would call my financial use of my slave, H, abusive of him. However I can't possibly imagine slavery that involves no material enrichment for the owner that I'd still call slavery." -- Another Attempt at Abuse

It is obvious why you defend casual 'bdsm'.

I've found my beloved and seek no other. I am only here to shed some light on a subject most novices will never see, thanks to you and those like you.

Look at the dictionary and chew it out as abusive.

It's the meaning of the word. I don't care if the rest of the SM community wants to put rose perfume on this tart and call her a rosebush till the cows come home.

As Angelic Assassin's sig line used to say "welcome to the deep end." Enjoy your water wings.

 

[BLoved]

I would say you demonstrate abysmal ignorance. and a Biblical fundamentalism that speaks poorly for your future happiness with your two-months-old Forever Love.

Or else, her happiness. I am actually worried about her safety, for if she begins to change and grow away from you, I don't think you will let her go.

~smile~

And how self-serving is your new-found concern?

 

[Netzach]

My paradigm is based on 30,000 years of evolution that has produced the most successful species on the planet.

The casual paradigm is based on less than fifty years of experimentation and the victims are not hard to find if you are willing to demonstrate a willingness to listen.

The Romantic paradigm didn't exist until 1200, and in most of the world doesn't still. They don't seem to have any problem reproducing in cultures where women are pretty much property along with land and goats.

The paradigm you're talking about is an experiment not even 1000 years old.

 

[BLoved]

There is love, and then there is BLoved's version of True Love. Possessiveness and jealousy have NO place in my relationship with Sir. I am allowed, encouraged even, to explore my sexuality and try new things.

~smile~

And aside from my rejection of casual 'bdsm', what other symptoms have you seen that supports an assertion I am possesive or jealous?

 

[Stella_Omega]

~smile~

And how self-serving is your new-found concern?

~smile~

Hit a nerve, did I?

 

[BLoved]

Or else, her happiness. I am actually worried about her safety, for if she begins to change and grow away from you, I don't think you will let her go.

Thanks for 'worrying' about me. But there really is no need.
I am going home to my abusive parents to gather things. Il be there for 5 days.... if Robert was the possessive man that everyone on here is describing, ONE i would not be with him, and TWO he wouldn't allow me to go back there not knowing that i would return.

That is something that not very many are talking about here; Trust.
Robert trusts me knowing that i am going back to them for a short time. and he knows that its going to be hard. But my parents, as coniving as they are, will try to keep me there. However i would not stay there if it meant that i had to live or die. I would rather attempt death to come back to live with Robert than stay there with my possessive parents.

So there is no need to worry for me, for Robert is one of the many nicest men out there.

Thanks for the concern, but Robert and I both know that if something starts to change we always talk about it, and get eachother sides before coming up with a solution.

Its kinda like the whole debate everyone is talking about. What the real BDSM life really is about. Everyone has different points of veiw, and thats fine. But its the same with my life. Everyone is going to have many different veiws on how i should be living, but their not the right ones for me. I know the right path for me to follow and that is with Robert.

 

[BLoved]

Perhaps
everything terrible is in its deepest being something helpless
that wants help from us.

Rainer Maria Rilke

Behind every abuser is a child who learned of abuse.

None of us were born with this awareness ... we had to be taught by others.

Should it be a surprise that we all need love?

Would it be a surprise to learn abusers and those trapped in cycles of self-destruction need it more?

It is their own dysfunctions that keep them from finding that which they need.

Until they find their way out of their mazes, to the point at which they entered them, they will remain lost, and obstruct any effort to help them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks for 'worrying' about me. But there really is no need.
I am going home to my abusive parents to gather things. Il be there for 5 days.... if Robert was the possessive man that everyone on here is describing, ONE i would not be with him, and TWO he wouldn't allow me to go back there not knowing that i would return.

That is something that not very many are talking about here; Trust.
Robert trusts me knowing that i am going back to them for a short time. and he knows that its going to be hard. But my parents, as coniving as they are, will try to keep me there. However i would not stay there if it meant that i had to live or die. I would rather attempt death to come back to live with Robert than stay there with my possessive parents.

Huh. Well, if you say so, and I have certainly known of parents that are that possessive. But I would suggest that you might lack perspective; if your parents are extremely possessive, and Robert is not quite that possessive, he's still possessive. I agree and laud his efforts to help you heal. Just be aware that you might heal more than he is comfortable with, and you do not know yet if that is so. You have only known each other for two months.

So there is no need to worry for me, for Robert is one of the many nicest men out there.

Thanks for the concern, but Robert and I both know that if something starts to change we always talk about it, and get eachother sides before coming up with a solution.

Its kinda like the whole debate everyone is talking about. What the real BDSM life really is about. Everyone has different points of veiw, and thats fine. But its the same with my life. Everyone is going to have many different veiws on how i should be living, but their not the right ones for me. I know the right path for me to follow and that is with Robert.

See, that's the problem with your Robert. He came here claiming to have the ONLY correct way to live BDSM. Everyone else is saying that their experiences have been very different, and Robert tells them they are lying to themselves. He is not been respectful at all of other people's experiences or ideas, and when his essays got some low scores he deleted him-- like a child having a temper tantrum.

This is why I worry for you. He may not respect your disagreement, when that day comes. He hasn't shown much respect here.

 

[BLoved]

Honestly, I do not know why any of us have bothered to take the time and effort to change your mind.

So you are trying to convert me and you are frustrated to discover you are not succeeding.

~smile~

Would it help to know I am not trying to convert anyone, and that is why I feel neither frustration nor unsuccessful.

I am satisfied to share my point of view and leave it to the readers to decide for themselves what makes sense and what doesn't.

Apparently, that is not enough for you.

 

[BLoved]

Done with page 7.

I'll be back.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Would it help to know I am not trying to convert anyone, and that is why I feel neither frustration nor unsuccessful.

I am satisfied to share my point of view and leave it to the readers to decide for themselves what makes sense and what doesn't.

You are lying on all counts. If you wanted to leave it up to the readers you would be satisfied when they tell you they don't agree. You would not delete your essays at the first hint of less than ecstatic response. And you would not insult people in the many ways you have done here.