The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Etoile]

Also, now that I realize what the OP is talking about, it all seems a bit silly. Why are we even engaging this asshat? We're not going to change his mind; he's not going to change ours. It's OKAY to have different opinions in the universe. Let him believe his little fluffy Twoo Wuv nonsense and the rest of us will go on living happy and productive lives.

 

[eastern sun]

You are risking life and limb to offer yourself to people you know have no compelling reason to live up to your trust/expectations. They know as you know that whatever arrangements you work out are transient and that there is no future for the two of you, so why should they feel compelled to live up to your expectations when this is their one and only chance to get what they want?

In what way does that reflect a high-degree of self-esteem?

I think I have more faith in people than you do.

And that, I believe, is due to the fact that I have a high degree of self-esteem.

How one feels about oneself is frequently projected onto others.

 

[BLoved]

Sometimes, experiencing myself as an attractive and sexually desirable woman significantly enhances my self-esteem (especially as I'm approaching my 50's in a culture where youth is highly valued).

Finding a man willing to use you sexually does not appear to me to be a source for high self-esteem.

Finding someone who loves you for who you are .... that is a source for high self-esteem.

Though most of the time I do not feel that I am subjecting myself to abuse, once in a while I do question my behavior. And I do grow concerned about the way my behavior impacts the lives of other people. I think self-reflection is a valuable and important piece of any life, regardless of its circumstances.

And, how can I adequately explain to you the feelings of peace and tranquillity that I have in certain situations that might be deemed abusive from one perspective, but are not, in my experience, because they do not damage me.

You might assume that abuse I have suffered at the hands of others has created in me a damaged soul who cannot know the full experience of happiness.

I don't agree. We all have our stories of good and bad treatment. It's part of the human condition.

I understand the need to make the best of a bad situation, to find happiness even in the face of adversity. But being human means needing love. It is a fundamental human requirement.

Discovering how we respond to the circumstances we find ourselves in is the key to unlocking our character.

Being able to recognize how past abuse influences our choices, and making better choices is part of living up to our potential.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Also, now that I realize what the OP is talking about, it all seems a bit silly. Why are we even engaging this asshat? We're not going to change his mind; he's not going to change ours. It's OKAY to have different opinions in the universe. Let him believe his little fluffy Twoo Wuv nonsense and the rest of us will go on living happy and productive lives.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

 

[warrior queen]

(Your Endings was very moving and I'm sorry you had to loose your wife as you did. However it is irrelevant to the present discussion.)

On the contrary. It is a description of true love.

no, it is NOT a description of true love.
what it is, is YOUR PERSONAL DESCRIPTION/EXPERIENCE of what YOU feel was true love.
and your personal description of that true love applies only to YOU - it does not apply to any other person.
my own description/experience of true love is very different to yours, as is i suspect, everyone else's here.

this applies equally to what you describe as 'abusive'.
what seems abusive to you personally may not seem that way to another - but in your arrogance here on this thread (and in others) you apparently think that you alone have the answers to what is right or wrong.

(similarly, every other person here could make the same claim..... if their lifestyle choices work for them, they could make the claim - as you do - that YOUR views on BDSM without 'true love' are incorrect and their way is the only way to go!)

 

[chy_girl]

Also, now that I realize what the OP is talking about, it all seems a bit silly. Why are we even engaging this asshat? We're not going to change his mind; he's not going to change ours. It's OKAY to have different opinions in the universe. Let him believe his little fluffy Twoo Wuv nonsense and the rest of us will go on living happy and productive lives.

It could also be considered a public service of sorts.

If he's engaging here on his favorite topic here then he's not hijacking other threads that have nothing to do with anything he's talking about.

 

[Cattypuss]

How the HELL do you justify yourself handing out emotional abuse to people over the internet as being the spokesperson of True Love?

This is emotionally abusive, verbally abusive language, to assault people's self esteem based on their choices. It has no part in civil debate. It has no part in helping someone.

Let's argue for a second that you are right about everything,which I absolutely don't believe.

Is this how you "help" people?

Go look up "harm reduction" or check your Tao Te Ching and come back when you're ready to be a human being.

Thank you, Netzach. You have put into words the gut-feeling that I've had about BLoved pretty much from the start, but didn't quite know how to pin down/articulate. Thank you.

 

[Seurat]

[

There are many many ways of dealing with abuse, and not all of them are healthy.
I realize I cannot resolve this issue for everyone, and so I do not try.

So, although people have problems, you have decided that since you can't help them all, you won't try to help any?

I present the information in the hopes that those who have not yet been abused may avoid it, and ...

But you removed all your works.

In other words, I help those I can help, and hope for the best for the rest.

But you removed all your works, and just said you weren't going to help people resolve issues?

But the bottom line is always a matter of personal choice. It is not up to me to help others, it is up to others to help themselves.

Now I am getting very confused, You can help but can't so you won't. Then, you do help people. Now, it is not up to you, but up to the people themselves.
I've tried to point out ways in which you, BLoved, could present your ideas in a way constructive to a persuasive discussion, but now I am just too confused by your logic.

I can only point the way ... they have to choose to walk the path.

Yuppers. And when I think of taking paths,

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Time for a vodka tonic, I think.

 

[Keroin]

Time for a vodka tonic, I think.

At last, wisdom.

 

[the captians wench]

Considering we are all born with an aversion to such treatment, shunning away from it being a natural response, the fact someone believes themselves deserving of nothing better is evidence of past abuse.

At some point she was taught to expect no better treatment, to tolerate the treatment she got ... to see herself "deserving" the abuse.

I saw that CM quoted this, and I know this will probably get some obvious comments from some, but this brought up something that I felt a need to share anyway.

I've never been into humiliation, but I was curious about TPE and moving from sub to slave. I met some one who shared a lot of the same interests that I did and was looking to own a slave and participate in a TPE type relationship. But I started noticing that my personality was changing.

I slowly lost confidence, which was weird because after my ex husband and I split I found a lot of confidence and was completely secure in who I am. As my confidence started to become shakie, I started asking about some of the activities that he kept promising me we would do.

He kept promising and holding what I wanted up like a carrot. If I did this then he would do that, but I had to earn it. I could only get this if I earned it. Which in most situations I'm okay with, but the things he was asking of me were imposible to meet. I was never going to earn what I wanted, and because of the way he would fraze things I started to believe that I wasn't worth the little things that I asked for, the things that were agreed that I would recieve at the begining of the relationship.

I was able to pull away from this person. And yes, he was very obviously a preditor and some one who was just looking to get his way and could have given a fuck about me. But I was convinced at the begining that he cared for me, and because of him I connected to some one I consider my best friend, and I wouldn't have connected to this person if it weren't for this preditor.

Three years later I am back to my full confidence, but I still have things that trigger that very bad space I was in when this "master" was in my life. It's not a situation I would wish on anyone, and because of that I have talked a lot about that relationship here on the boards so I won't go into any more details unless some one wants to PM me.

The quote just made me think about my situation and how much I wish that I can help anyone not have that same experience.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This wins so hard, I award Netzach 15 Internets.

She nailed the dismount, too.

 

[BLoved]

Threads here dealing with abuse:


Another Attempt at Abuse

...

I haven't reviewed all of them, but I did read the one quoted above.

Fair is fair, I have to admit I was impressed with the quality of disussion and the lack of disruption.

I will review the others as I have the time. I am curious to see if that was the exception or the rule.

 

[BLoved]

Yes. I was thinking earlier too, that problems and difficulties that arise during this period may be internalized and under-reported, because the submissive feels shame at having been so eager and naive. (The only reason I mention this, by the way, is because I've experienced it myself . . . so please don't think I'm being judgmental.)

Or they are shamed into silence.

The fact that "sub-frenzy" is a readily observable state with some predictable outcomes does suggest the need for responsibility on the part of more experienced players.

Or the need to explore those feelings within a more responsible, committed relationship than a casual affair with virtual strangers.

But . . . please, watch out, I may push some buttons here . . . people who are interested in the D/s and S/M aspects of BDSM are sometimes bringing with them some pretty heavy baggage.

To pretend otherwise (insisting that we are smarter, more mature, or otherwise more sensitive than that crazy vanilla crowd) is to miss the writing on the wall, and set everyone up for unrealistic expectations of maturity and health.

Which is one of my complaints regarding casual advocates: the assumption that those who participate in love-less group activities are somehow superior to any and all others.

Unable to see their blind-spot, their judgment of others is flawed.

I'll be back.

 

[Bandit58]

no, it is NOT a description of true love.
what it is, is YOUR PERSONAL DESCRIPTION/EXPERIENCE of what YOU feel was true love.
and your personal description of that true love applies only to YOU - it does not apply to any other person.
my own description/experience of true love is very different to yours, as is i suspect, everyone else's here.

this applies equally to what you describe as 'abusive'.
what seems abusive to you personally may not seem that way to another - but in your arrogance here on this thread (and in others) you apparently think that you alone have the answers to what is right or wrong.

(similarly, every other person here could make the same claim..... if their lifestyle choices work for them, they could make the claim - as you do - that YOUR views on BDSM without 'true love' are incorrect and their way is the only way to go!)

*applauds WQ*

BLoved - My first marriage (23 years, vanilla) was emotionally abusive. I was faithful to him and he was my first sexual partner. He was selfish, critical, possessive and domineering. I felt stifled, unloved (even though he professed to love me when I told him I was leaving. He'd never said it before that I can remember).

My second marriage, to Sir, is loving, caring and the best thing that's ever happened to me. Yes we sometimes engage in activities with other people, some sexual, some not. The shibari session I described in an earlier post I do not consider sexual even though I was nude, because the other Dominant was not touching me in a sexual way.

Sir and I are very secure in our relationship and the fact that we sometimes bring in others doesn't detract from that, FOR US. In no way am I being abused. Believe me I know what abuse feels like

 

[intothewoods]

If you don't have an account at Fetlife, you can't read this, but on the off chance that you do, here is a very heated conversation that took place amongst members of my local group: http://fetlife.com/groups/756/group_posts/349791

People really piled on a certain regular who has been accused before of impropriety. I felt a bit concerned that it devolved into something of a witch hunt. People in the group are quick to jump on an accused male predator. Anyone who complains about predatory behavior is not shamed, they are treated as inherently trustworthy and honest, and the accused predator is ostracised.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I have yet to see the casual community discuss in public abuse within the community.

http://www.nlaidvproject.us/html/index.php

NLA-I DVP Events

Fallen Hosts Special Events for Sexual Assault Awareness Month

April is National Sexual Assault Awareness Month and Fallen Angels on Second Life is hosting special events during the week of April 4-10, 2010 to raise awareness of abuse in BDSM relationships and to raise funds for the National Leather Association's Domestic Violence Project.

Please support this important cause by joining us during this week for discussions on abuse in BDSM, how to recognize, how to stop it, how to avoid it as well as fund raising events.

Elcca (NLA-I DVP committee member) and I will both be in attendance and helping with discussions. All events are Second Life time.

Schedule of Events:

Sunday @ 8pm (4/4)

Candlelight Vigil for Victims of Abuse

Main Courtyard



Monday @ 5pm

Discussion - Emotional Abuse

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Fallen Garden



Monday @ 7pm (4/5)

Sub Discussion Group - Top 10 Red Flags

Elandra Queller

Garden



Tuesday @ 9am (4/6)

Know the Difference

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Fallen Garden



Tuesday @ 7pm (4/6)

Discussion Group - Abuse or Healthy BDSM,

Eldric Westland

Fallen Lounge



Wed @8am (4/7)

Toxic Relationships

Renzo Goodliffe

Fallen Garden



Wed @ 5:30pm (4/7)

If You Suspect Abuse...

Seraphina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)



Thursday @ 9am (4/8)

Consent, Limits and Rights

Cat Sadayappan

Fallen Garden



Thursday @ 7pm (4/8)

Q&A with Serpahina Littlebird (NLA-I DVP)

Cat Sadayappan

Fallen Lounge



Friday @ 5pm (4/9)

Physical Abuse

(NLA-I DVP)



Friday @ 7pm (4/9)

Dom Discussion - Crossing the Line

Eldric Westland

Secret Location!



Saturday @ 1pm (4/10)

Red Flags - Are You Listening?

Seikiji Kitalpha

Fallen Garden



Saturday @ 6pm (4/10)

Healthy BDSM Dungeon Party

Fallen Dungeon



Ongoing (4/4-4/10)

Charity Auction (closes 9pm Saturday)

Art Exhibit of BDSM images by Allyson Firehawk (location TBA)

 

[intothewoods]

Or they are shamed into silence.



Or the need to explore those feelings within a more responsible, committed relationship than a casual affair with virtual strangers.



Which is one of my complaints regarding casual advocates: the assumption that those who participate in love-less group activities are somehow superior to any and all others.

Unable to see their blind-spot, their judgment of others is flawed.

I'll be back.

This is a bit much. Your posts are full of assumptions, and you also behave as though your worldview is superior to everyone else's.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Then I would say they are in denial regarding their "loving relationships".

Casual play does not demonstrate love or concern for the emotional well-being of the beloved.

In the example you describe casual play is thrill-seeking at the expense of a partner's emotional well-being: an act of selfishness and a betrayal of one's partner.

I would say you demonstrate abysmal ignorance. and a Biblical fundamentalism that speaks poorly for your future happiness with your two-months-old Forever Love.

Or else, her happiness. I am actually worried about her safety, for if she begins to change and grow away from you, I don't think you will let her go.

 

[Bandit58]

I would say you demonstrate abysmal ignorance. and a Biblical fundamentalism that speaks poorly for your future happiness with your two-months-old Forever Love.

Or else, her happiness. I am actually worried about her safety, for if she begins to change and grow away from you, I don't think you will let her go.

Thank you Stella for putting into words the little niggling feeling i have in my gut. He sounds very possessive, much like my former husband.

There is love, and then there is BLoved's version of True Love. Possessiveness and jealousy have NO place in my relationship with Sir. I am allowed, encouraged even, to explore my sexuality and try new things.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I am actually worried about her safety, for if she begins to change and grow away from you, I don't think you will let her go.

Holy crap, that reminds me of some other stuff I've been reading on FL lately.

Don't know how I got onto it, but it was all about being 'a profound submissive' and being mentally conditioned to be afraid of leaving, and knowing that if you tried to Dom would 'hunt you down and recapture you'

It was scary.

 

[Bandit58]

http://www.soifound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/weird-love.jpg

 

[eastern sun]

Fear of the Inexplicable

But fear of the inexplicable has not alone impoverished
the existence of the individual; the relationship between
one human being and another has also been cramped by it,
as though it had been lifted out of the riverbed of
endless possibilities and set down in a fallow spot on the
bank, to which nothing happens. For it is not inertia alone
that is responsible for human relationships repeating
themselves from case to case, indescribably monotonous and
unrenewed: it is shyness before any sort of new, unforeseeable
experience with which one does not think oneself able to cope.

But only someone who is ready for everything, who excludes
nothing, not even the most enigmatical, will live the relation
to another as something alive and will himself draw exhaustively
from his own existence. For if we think of this existence of
the individual as a larger or smaller room, it appears evident
that most people learn to know only a corner of their room, a
place by the window, a strip of floor on which they walk up and
down. Thus they have a certain security. And yet that dangerous
insecurity is so much more human which drives the prisoners in
Poe's stories to feel out the shapes of their horrible dungeons
and not be strangers to the unspeakable terror of their abode.

We, however, are not prisoners. No traps or snares are set about
us, and there is nothing which should intimidate or worry us.
We are set down in life as in the element to which we best
correspond, and over and above this we have through thousands of
years of accommodation become so like this life, that when we
hold still we are, through a happy mimicry,scarcely to be
distinguished from all that surrounds us. We have no reason to
mistrust our world, for it is not against us. Has it terrors,
they are our terrors; has it abysses, those abysses belong to us;
are dangers at hand, we must try to love them. And if only we
arrange our life according to that principle which counsels us
that we must always hold to the difficult, then that which now
still seems to us the most alien will become what we most trust
and find most faithful. How should we be able to forget those
ancient myths about dragons that at the last moment turn into
princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses
who are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave. Perhaps
everything terrible is in its deepest being something helpless
that wants help from us.

Rainer Maria Rilke

 

[celticsunspiral]

So you are good enough to beat, but not good enough to love.

In what way is that not dysfunctional?

In what way does that not affect your self-esteem?

Wow, you are funny! Where does love/self-esteem have to enter into it? I am a strong, independent woman I do not need for my “boyfriend” to bolster my self esteem. I just got out of a long term relationship and I am so not looking to find “The One” at this time. In fact, I don’t know if I am interested in a mono relationship, and I know he isn’t. I am responsible for my own choices and the consequences of those choices!

Just because it is a casual relationship doesn’t mean there isn’t intimacy involved. We do not play heavy every time we are together and enjoy cuddling on the couch, we have interesting conversations. I know that I am safe when play, but I also have no control over his life and he doesn’t over mine either. We both date other people; in fact he is in a M/s relationship with someone else. She and I are friends, and sometimes the three of us hang out. I have known him on and off for almost 2 years, and when we went out and discussed this I had already started weighing pros vs cons in my mind. He is giving me part of what I was looking for, experiences. With him I have found that I really like several things I wanted to try but had never had the opportunity. How is this bad?

Dysfunctional? The definition according to the Miriam Webster: abnormal or unhealthy interpersonal behavior or interaction within a group. I have a hard time thinking of it as abnormal or unhealthy. By vanilla definitions maybe, but I see too many other people in the lifestyle who have similar relationships to view it that way myself.

Honestly, I do not know why any of us have bothered to take the time and effort to change your mind. You have chosen a point of view based on limited personal experience and even with all the evidence to the contrary that has been provided I don’t think you are going to change it.

 

[BLoved]

BLoved, you've known your significant other for two months total, and knew you were each other's forever love after five weeks? Sorry, but a whole lot of your credibility with me just went out the window.

I made that decision even sooner with the woman who became my wife.

We shared over ten years together, and had a son before she died.

True love doesn't require a schedule ... just two people listening to the love in their hearts.

 

[rida]

*snip*
By stating a 'special case', in this instance your personal experience, as a general fact, the position you make becomes a 'Converse Fallacy of Accident'. A more effective presentation (and accurate, since I don't think you are omniscient) would have been to elimnate the 'all or nothing' factors of your statements, and present them as personal observation. I.e., The majority of the discussion forums I have visited have, in my personal experience, denoted casual BDSM as a "I want what I want and I'll do whatever it takes to get it", and therefore I think it is indicitive a serious problem in the BDSM community. Casual BDSM, it seems, is taking on or has already taken on persona in which selfish and personal desires by the inexperienced and possibly uneducated are given precendence over the personal and humanitarian rights of those placed, willing or unwilling, into the submissive roles. I feel, therfore, that the community's reputation is being undermined as some of these 'casual BDSM players' are substituting selfish acts of abuse for possible positive relationships, which would be beneficial to all parties involved.

Yeah, a little drawn out, but I think that it states your position (as I see it) in a bit more palatable and therefore discussable fashion.
*snip*

By removing the absolute value from BLoved opinion you remove the only argument he has for the validity of it: that it is a "natural" absolute, as any human being that has not been damaged will only seek a True Love relationship as anything else is unhealthy and as such unethical and abusive.

Time for a vodka tonic, I think.

My kind of drink!

Are you trying to lure me into your dungeon to abuse me with casual play?
I'm game!