A "FAIR TAX" thread so U_D can "tear me to shreds..."

[Ishmael]

I was giving you an out, but hey, if you want to tell us that words like "Elitest", "Unforunately", "God's" (in a non-possessive situation), "parrott", "practicle" are the best you can do when sober, go for it. Just realize that your opinion about my "intellectual acuity" might not seem very compelling.

For some reason, you reserve the right to make presumptions about others (e.g. the whole "doctor" thing among others), but when it's done to you, you get all "hottie". (Ooops, I meant "haughty".) That whole golden rule concept must have gone over your head, which is odd given your self-described mastery of all things conceptual, which you'll suggest explains your curious inability to spell-check.

But sure, feel free to wax eloquent on why you're the only one in the room that understands what's really going on.

And in return for your kind suggestion endorsing suicide, I offer this for your consideration:

"Signs/Symptoms

Schizophrenia usually develops gradually, although onset can be sudden. Friends and family often notice the first changes before the victim does. Among the signs are:

* Confusion
* Inability to make decisions
* Hallucinations
* Changes in eating or sleeping habits, energy level, or weight
* Delusions
* Nervousness
* Strange statements or behavior
* Withdrawal from friends, work, or school
* Neglect of personal hygiene
* Anger
* Indifference to the opinions of others
* A tendency to argue
* A conviction that you are better than others, or that people are out to get you"

Unless you missed the subtlety, you've been dismissed.

Ishmael

 

[firespin]

Unless you missed the subtlety, you've been dismissed.

Ishmael

You been sleeping ok?
How's your weight?
Flossing regularly?
Been withdrawing from friends? (Oops, sorry, sensitive area)

 

[Ishmael]

You been sleeping ok?
How's your weight?
Flossing regularly?
Been withdrawing from friends? (Oops, sorry, sensitive area)

You've been unmasked now.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

& food and necessities will cost more. So what are you saving?

Except for the prebate check to cover that tax cost.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

You've been unmasked now.

Ishmael

Oh lord, Ish thinks Firespun is Oliver Clozoff ..

Used to be a time when he accused everyone of being LT. I guess a new decade brings a new perceived enemy.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Except for the prebate check to cover that tax cost.

Yeah, let's put the entire country on the equivalent of welfare..

 

[firespin]

Except for the prebate check to cover that tax cost.

Which seems a bit odd, since you told us widgets will cost less, thanks to the fair tax, right?

Why, it's as if the fair tax designers were concerned that out of pocket costs might go up.

They probably didn't really understand the whole stimulate-the-economy thing.

 

[Ishmael]

Except for the prebate check to cover that tax cost.

Bantering with shallow minded idiots again? God help us, he's teaching children.

Ishmael

 

[firespin]

Oh lord, Ish thinks Firespun is Oliver Clozoff ..

Used to be a time when he accused everyone of being LT. I guess a new decade brings a new perceived enemy.

Ohhh.

I thought he was just making a strange statement.

But Seanh said I was Beco though.

* makes a list *

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

You are absolutely, unequivocably and undeniably WRONG.

The whole purpose of the FairTax was to replace current taxation methods on a dollar-for-dollar basis with a national sales tax. Best case scenario (promoted by the FairTax folks) claims this can be done with a 23% tax-inclusive rate (which translates to a 30% tax-exclusive sales tax rate) and worst case scenarios (promoted by FairTax detractors) claim a 39% tax-inclusive rate (which would be a crippling 54% sales tax rate).

The goal is NOT to "increase business activity" and not based in any documented study. It is wishful thinking.

Increased business activity is the goal unless you want to die as a nation. I can't say it anymore clearly than that. We are watching the results of Greece committing socialist suicide and we have an administration hell-bent on using the current tax code to go down the same path about two steps behind California. Because Washington DC has so successfully used the tax code, among other tools. to bitterly divide us we will spend our time destroying our enemies instead of getting something done to save ourselves.

ALL progressive taxes based on income will eventually lead to the bottom of the gravy bowl, which, we can see now, today, this morning.

We hated the Republicans because they were hypocrites, all they did was talk about "smaller government," "lower taxes" and "reduced spending" which they did not deliver on allowing the spend-thrift Democrats back into power where they are doing what they do best, tax and spend as if there is no tomorrow. There may not be. Now we have ONE Republican standing up and saying, "fund your spending" and he will be the bane of the Democrat Party and the progressive/socialist wing of the Republican party.

The FairTax, for all the warts you want to find is still better than a tax code with tumors and that is what we have now, a "fair" flat tax on income and it lasted about 15 minutes before Congress began using the 51% rule and we see where it ends.

You know the difference between us and Greece? Their birthrate is below sustainability while we still have our grandchildren to loot.

The FairTax puts more money in your pocket and gives you cheaper goods and services and it is based on the economy and it puts the united people back in control over a Congress that cannot any longer use the 51% rule or the IRS as the gun to our head.

I've looked over your nit-picking, and honestly, I don't see one damned new argument all I see is an increasingly hostile repetition of the same charges over and over, the confusing of inclusion and exclusion, the "greed" argument, the zero-sum game argument and the nice touch is the vociferous name-calling that is the stock-in-trade of the progressives from both parties.

__________________
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frederic Bastiat

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Which seems a bit odd, since you told us widgets will cost less, thanks to the fair tax, right?

Why, it's as if the fair tax designers were concerned that out of pocket costs might go up.

They probably didn't really understand the whole stimulate-the-economy thing.

Yes they will, I showed you the math and you fell upon Throb's zero-sum argument that said, "In order to claim the sales tax from the sale, we'll have to charge 30% stupid. Don't tell me lower prices will raise more taxes, that just more Bush Jr. Voodoo economics. Every one knows the Fairtax was designed to preserve the status quo in pricing and not to grow the economy despite FucksCo's lame cut and paste from our own expert who says 11 to 13% growth right off the bat"

 

[Ishmael]

Actually I think UD is an idiot and Ollie and FS have a lot in common. UD seems to think that that observation relegates one hand servant to the other. Understandable considering that UD seems to think that slavery is still operational in the US. He hasn't quite grasped the fact that he's the slave.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Bantering with shallow minded idiots again? God help us, he's teaching children.

Ishmael

I think the word isn't again, but still...

 

[Ishmael]

I think the word isn't again, but still...

Touche'

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Throb's problem is when the topic is macro replacement of taxes, he confuses it with the micro replacement of taxes...







Firespin's problem is he can't see it because he's focused on me and whatever warts he can find, even as the tumor grows.

 

[Ishmael]

Throb's problem is when the topic is macro replacement of taxes, he confuses it with the micro replacement of taxes...







Firespin's problem is he can't see it because he's focused on me and whatever warts he can find, even as the tumor grows.

I've given up on fire, he hasn't done a damn thing to educate himself beyond goggle and parrot. Yah, if he'd just read the books and tackled the real issues I'd have some respect. As it is, there's no respect left.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I've given up on fire, he hasn't done a damn thing to educate himself beyond goggle and parrot. Yah, if he'd just read the books and tackled the real issues I'd have some respect. As it is, there's no respect left.

Ishmael

I tried to warn him about thinking that following Throb around was a good idea...



I got a new toy to play with! A Sony book reader. It comes with the 3 Musketeers in French...


__________________
In America, they first came for the very rich and I didn't speak up because I wasn't rich," said the Rev. Imadem Doinggood. "Then they came for the Bourgeoisie and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Bourgeois. Then they came for the Upper Middle Class blue-collar workers. I didn't speak up because I was a Government clerk. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up.

 

[firespin]

Yah, if he'd just read the books and tackled the real issuesl

Nice one.

I did read enough of the book to see that it was an opinion piece without any substantiation of its key claims.

Maybe that appeals to some.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Nice one.

I did read enough of the book to see that it was an opinion piece without any substantiation of its key claims.

Maybe that appeals to some.

Other than the work of the economists who came up with the plan, that is...


__________________
"In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists."
Eric Hoffer

 

[firespin]

Other than the work of the economists who came up with the plan, that is...


__________________

If somebody can't make predictions well enough to be a global warming scientist, there's always economics as a less demanding field of endeavor.

Two examples of fair tax puffery that made my head hurt...one misleading, one wrong:

The claim that capturing purchases by foreign tourists would be material requires an extended definition of "material"...they spend about $100B in the US today. (Including a lot of "hidden" taxes, of course...) Making that explicit gets you $23B or so in round numbers, which as a percent of total tax receipts is...not even 1%.

http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/2008_International_Visitor_Spending.pdf

Then there's the claim that the very wealthy make their money from capital gains, so are taxed at 15%, so the 23% sales tax will increase what they pay. Conveniently ignoring that their capital gains income in excess of their spending, which could easily be the vast majority of their income...how many yachts can you buy?...would be taxed at zero percent. These guys would see their tax burden go to single digit percentages.

Oh, but of course these points aren't "substantive", they're minutia, or class war. The only "substantive" discussion is how horrible the IRS is, and how long the tax code is...despite the fact that 99% of the people are unaffected by 99% of the tax code, less than 1% of returns are audited, and congress can and will gerrymander a sales tax in the first 15 minutes. (After creating the successor to the IRS, of course.)

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Uhhhhhhhhh............





There won't be any capital gains taxes, it's an INCOME tax...





As for the first, it's not even a wart, just a pimple.
__________________
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."
Winston Churchill

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

That's one of the things that helps the elderly...

 

[firespin]

Uhhhhhhhhh............





There won't be any capital gains taxes, it's an INCOME tax...

Right, that would be what I said.

High income, untaxed.

Relatively small consumption, taxed. (And, for those with substantive earned income, which is most of the wealthy, at rates well below their income tax rate.)

Net net: they pay much less.

Though the book says they pay more.

If paying much less is good, why not just say that? Why try to claim the opposite?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

If you pay less tax, you have more discretionary income.

You can do three things with your money.

Spend it and pay the tax.
Invest it and grow the economy.
Stuff it in a mattress...

 

[firespin]

If you pay less tax, you have more discretionary income.

You can do three things with your money.

Spend it and pay the tax.
Invest it and grow the economy.
Stuff it in a mattress...

I'm happy to have low taxes, despite claims of the borderline delusional that I'm somehow arguing the opposite, or that I like the way that tax laws are made today. My posts are all here, you can look it up.

As I've said a few times, the revenue-neutral mandate of the Fair Tax means that taxes aren't lowered across the board, they're just paid differently. The plan should make clear who is paying more, rather than implying that everybody pays less...well, except for those rich folks who are today spending all their capital gains income. They'll pick up the tab for the rest of us.

From the fairtax.org site:

"Consider, for example, your typical billionaire, of which America now has more than 400. These fortunate few are invested primarily in equities on which they pay taxes at a 15 percent rate, whether their income comes in the form of capital gains or dividends. In addition to having the income from their wealth taxed at a low rate, the principal of their wealth is completely untaxed either directly or indirectly. Assuming they and their heirs spend only the income earned on the wealth each year, the tax rate today is 15 percent. In contrast, under the FairTax, the effective tax rate is 23 percent. Hence, the very wealthy will pay more taxes when the FairTax is enacted. In a nutshell, those who spend more will pay more but low, moderate and middle income taxpayers will benefit from the greatest gains in reduced tax liabilities."