Reading level vs Writing level

[TxRad]

On another thread Throbs made this comment:

ie. you don't have to write as well for a partner who does not read at a high level.

I've had the comment that I write like people speak, many times.

Reading levels are down according to schools. So, does that mean as writers we need to write at a lower level or should we hold the higher standard and hope we improve peoples reading skills?

Does the higher standard lose us readers?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I write for myself, so I write at the level that I think at. I don't care to dumb it down, as I don't particularly care if I get read at all. But I'm a bastard like that

 

[_Lynn_]

I write for myself, so I write at the level that I think at. I don't care to dumb it down, as I don't particularly care if I get read at all. But I'm a bastard like that

And if all writers decided to dumb it down, wouldn't that lower the level more yet in the long run?

 

[NoJo]

How articulate you are is nothing to do with "levels", but if you want to reach a wide audience you need to use language that is in wide usage. I.E. lowest common denominator.

Personally I don't mind alienating a large number of readers when I write, and writing for "my kind of people" -- well-educated, with a comparatively large English vocabulary. people who read the broadsheets rather than the tabloids.

When it comes to the stuff here, I look for story and originality, not "good" writing.

 

[lance gt]

I think as writers, no matter how good or poor, we should give something for the masses to read that not only entertains, but improves their reading skills as well. Using common language for the most part, introducing words throughout that readers aren't familiar with, gives them a better knowledge of vocabulary and where to use them.
We should never lower or dumb down our writing to increase readership of our work, as that lowers us to their level, just to be popular.

 

[TxRad]

And if all writers decided to dumb it down, wouldn't that lower the level more yet in the long run?

Good point

How articulate you are is nothing to do with "levels", but if you want to reach a wide audience you need to use language that is in wide usage. I.E. lowest common denominator.

I've found this to be true

I think as writers, no matter how good or poor, we should give something for the masses to read that not only entertains, but improves their reading skills as well. Using common language for the most part, introducing words throughout that readers aren't familiar with, gives them a better knowledge of vocabulary and where to use them.
We should never lower or dumb down our writing to increase readership of our work, as that lowers us to their level, just to be popular.

But do we do it to be popular or do we do it because it's what the reader wants? No necessarily dumbing down but more natural to the way people speak and think.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Unless youre writing for perfessers better aim for an 8th grade level of reading skills.

This has been studied to death; the 50 most common words are used for 50% of speech, the 3000 most common words are used for 98% of all speech.

Avoid sentences larger than 20 words, and dont use words with more than 3 syllables.

 

[oggbashan]

Don't always believe Word's reading level statistics.

It is easy to "improve" to a more readable level:

Use shorter sentences, avoid conjunctions such as "and" and "but", avoid the passive voice...

Or

- don't do this:

How NOT to do it...
The roseate Sun, Phoebus’ orb, was glinting in the puddles and dappling the fallen leaves of the ancient forest as Joan made her way along the footpath leading from her rustic rose-entwined cottage, so beloved of tourists and her infrequent visitors from the city who left as soon as they reasonably could because the cottage lacked the basic amenities than any twenty-first century city dweller expected as of right such as satellite television and even running hot and cold water, both of which were unavailable, towards the steeple crowned hill on which the Parish Church sat as it had done for more than a thousand years surveying the expanding and contracting village in the valley beneath and perhaps regretting the earlier centuries when it had been filled to capacity by local residents each in their proper place and order according to the standards of the time, but Joan diverted from the direct route to the Church at a junction and was now heading in the direction of the Evening Star, the planet Venus known as Aphrodite to the Greeks but whether Greek or Roman was the personification of sexual desire, which sexual desire Joan was expecting to assuage once she reached her destination but in the meantime she was diverted by the interplay of light and shade from the evening sun as it sank lower on the horizon turning the landscape to a darkening ruddy hue which darkened further as she walked wondering whether she would reach her destination and assignation before Phoebus’ chariot had passed beyond her view but even if she did not her path was clear because she was accustomed to walking in the direction of the Evening Star every evening that she had free from her avocation of breeder of large and hairy dogs that bore a faint resemblance to The Hound of The Baskervilles and at times she would take one of the so-called breed with her on her perambulation which would certainly deter any evil minded loiterers upon her way but unfortunately also frequently prevented the consummation of her assignation by refusing to leave her side and repulsing her intended with ferocious barking and frenzied attacks barely held in check by the strong leash essential for such savage dogs but this time she was without a canine companion and therefore she hoped that the consummation would be forthcoming without let or hindrance as she continued to walk alongside the nearly dark woodlands before emerging on a slight eminence whence she could see her goal of another rose-entwined cottage from the chimney of which a wisp of smoke was arising promising warmth in both the physical, mental and sexual encounter which Joan would shortly enjoy.

"He's lit my fire" she said to herself.


PS. Ignoring the last short sentence which I couldn't resist:

Words 450
Sentences 1
Reading Ease 0
Grade Level 62.8

 

[sr71plt]

Don't always believe Word's reading level statistics.

It is easy to "improve" to a more readable level:

Use shorter sentences, avoid conjunctions such as "and" and "but", avoid the passive voice...

Why is that a reason not to believe Word's reading levels? Those are some of the elements that, indeed, affect the reading level--with the average goal in U.S. publishing, as JBJ noted, being the eighth grade (not that eighth graders read on the eighth grade level anymore).

 

[Weird Harold]

On another thread Throbs made this comment:

ie. you don't have to write as well for a partner who does not read at a high level.

I disagree with that perception. It is more difficult to write to a lower grade level than it is to write to a higher grade level. Any fifth grader can write never-ending PHD reading level sentences like Ogg does; it takes a conscientous author to communicate with the reader by writing clearly and concisely to the minimum reading level required by the content.

 

[TxRad]

I disagree with that perception. It is more difficult to write to a lower grade level than it is to write to a higher grade level. Any fifth grader can write never-ending PHD reading level sentences like Ogg does; it takes a conscientous author to communicate with the reader by writing clearly and concisely to the minimum reading level required by the content.

Shakespeare's English turned into ours. When will ours turn into text speak?

Text speak can't be good for reading levels but everyone is doing it.

 

[oggbashan]

Why is that a reason not to believe Word's reading levels? Those are some of the elements that, indeed, affect the reading level--with the average goal in U.S. publishing, as JBJ noted, being the eighth grade (not that eighth graders read on the eighth grade level anymore).

I don't believe Word's reading levels implicitly because the program has a fairly simple algorithm. Even though it has a UK English setting it still throws up problems with some of my stories.

Good writing can communicate even to less-able readers by building meaning into simple constructions.

It is easy to write as I did with "How Not To Do It". It isn't easy to write interestingly and well with a very limited vocabulary but it can be done. Like all good writing it takes effort, editing, revision and hard work.

But should we be writing porn to make it easily accessible for readers with a limited vocabulary?

Og

 

[Stella_Omega]

We can write porn for limited reading levels-- if we want to. No one has to. Plenty of it already exists, anyway. I found, at one time that it was hard to find porn for my reading level-- which is why I began writing my own.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't believe Word's reading levels implicitly because the program has a fairly simple algorithm. Even though it has a UK English setting it still throws up problems with some of my stories.

Good writing can communicate even to less-able readers by building meaning into simple constructions.

It is easy to write as I did with "How Not To Do It". It isn't easy to write interestingly and well with a very limited vocabulary but it can be done. Like all good writing it takes effort, editing, revision and hard work.

But should we be writing porn to make it easily accessible for readers with a limited vocabulary?

Og

It would be interesting to know if British and American levels are set differently.

And I agree with Stella--that it's just fine if erotica is written to a very wide range of reading levels.

 

[driphoney]

On another thread Throbs made this comment:

ie. you don't have to write as well for a partner who does not read at a high level.

I've had the comment that I write like people speak, many times.

Reading levels are down according to schools. So, does that mean as writers we need to write at a lower level or should we hold the higher standard and hope we improve peoples reading skills?

Does the higher standard lose us readers?

Doc M appears not to dumb down his writing level. Is he struggling for readers?

Personally, I'm sick of all the dumbing down. I don't consider, Tx, writing in vernacular to necessarily be dumbing down writing. Opening up Word reading level and adjusting what you've already written, is without a doubt.

Right now I'm struggling through the poorest written college textbook I've yet had inflicted on me. I swear it looks like the editor took the Word hatchet to it. There are an overabundance of simple sentences and often where combining them into longer complex one would have been clearer. I don't know which to be more disturbed by, the fact that maybe there are five Texas history college professors who can't write well, or that maybe they and the small-time publisher feel it necessary to dumb-down a college level history text to the 6th grade level.

Oh, and I've never minded doing a little dictionary diving when I can't put a word into context.

 

[driphoney]

We can write porn for limited reading levels-- if we want to. No one has to. Plenty of it already exists, anyway. I found, at one time that it was hard to find porn for my reading level-- which is why I began writing my own.

Preach it, sister!!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I find that its not too tough to find a simple word to replace a complex word, and most complex words apply to restricted group lingo.

 

[Auden James]

German Heritage

Maybe it's me being German, but I really don't understand a mode of thinking like TxRad's. I know that the German readership is rumored to be more demanding concerning the complexity of literature and Jonathan Franzen also says that we, the Germans, were possessing a higher frustration tolerance and wouldn't put such great value upon the 'entertainment' -- in contrast to his fellow Americans.

But when I read writing recommendations like "don't write setences over 20 words" I really start doubting whether author's like Virginia Woolf, Henry Miller, Philip Roth or Don DeLillo did and do actually have any readers in their home countries!?

Or has the trivialization really gone this far already that creative writing should be no more than writing for dummies?

 

[lance gt]

I find that its not too tough to find a simple word to replace a complex word, and most complex words apply to restricted group lingo.

Which is what my point earlier was about. Using complex words in a common language story more people are capable of understanding. Everyone here isn't a linguist or articulate in their writing for the most part, because the people who would read something more ethereal like that aren't here in great enough numbers to warrant it.

It's great to read stories like that, don't get me wrong, but the average reader doesn't have the word power to read at that level or complexity.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's not so much the vocabulary, really-- it's the subtleties that make yet another sex scene worth reading. Not everyone is capable of appreciating them-- or even noticing them.

 

[Dragonlipz]

And if all writers decided to dumb it down, wouldn't that lower the level more yet in the long run?

Look at the textbooks being used in high schools right now....

 

[Auden James]

Let's face it

We need to be honest: with the construction of an 'average reader' neither the actual reader's nor the author's interests is helped because this argument is only used to discourage writing original and somewhat ambitious stories -- simply put: good written stories.

Let's face it: the vast majority of stories on Lit is simply bad writing -- not just 'bad' porn for stroking instruction and nothing else, it's technically poor writing. So I ask you, honestly, how can you stand in for yet simpler efforts?

 

[IrezumiKiss]

We need to be honest: with the construction of an 'average reader' neither the actual reader's nor the author's interests is helped because this argument is only used to discourage writing original and somewhat ambitious stories -- simply put: good written stories.

Let's face it: the vast majority of stories on Lit is simply bad writing -- not just 'bad' porn for stroking instruction and nothing else, it's technically poor writing. So I ask you, honestly, how can you stand in for yet simpler efforts?

I don't and I wouldn't. And it should be crystal clear by the first page into the story if the writer is talking to you as an adult with education and experience or as an interchangeable, lowest-common-denominator schnook who can't discern quality writing over cookie-cutter schlock and doesn't practice critical thinking.

Microwaveable pizza is not the same thing as brick oven. I don't care how good that picture on the box cover looks, it just ain't so.

 

[oggbashan]

We need to be honest: with the construction of an 'average reader' neither the actual reader's nor the author's interests is helped because this argument is only used to discourage writing original and somewhat ambitious stories -- simply put: good written stories.

Let's face it: the vast majority of stories on Lit is simply bad writing -- not just 'bad' porn for stroking instruction and nothing else, it's technically poor writing. So I ask you, honestly, how can you stand in for yet simpler efforts?

Writing simply yet conveying complex meaning is very difficult.

Writing well for children can be as hard technically as writing for adults. Possibly it is even harder. The requirements are different.

I remember a 1950s/60s Geography textbook known as Finch and Trewartha (+ Robinson and Hammond). Unlike the UK geography texts I had previously used there were far more pictures and diagrams but what impressed me was the quality of the writing. Complex ideas were expressed in fairly simple sentences and short paragraphs. By comparison the UK textbooks were turgid, boring and most importantly, not as good at conveying information.

Finch and Trewartha was an example of good writing aimed for a specific audience.

Og

 

[sr71plt]

I don't worry about what the other writers are doing, Auden (or make sweeping judgments about their work). I just do my own writing here.