Reading level vs Writing level

[TxRad]

I was not implying that we should dumb down our writing. I was more wondering how much of what we write goes over the readers heads.

 

[bronzeage]

On another thread Throbs made this comment:

ie. you don't have to write as well for a partner who does not read at a high level.

I've had the comment that I write like people speak, many times.

Reading levels are down according to schools. So, does that mean as writers we need to write at a lower level or should we hold the higher standard and hope we improve peoples reading skills?

Does the higher standard lose us readers?

There is a niche for every level of writing. I do not believe a high standard will lose any more readers than a low one might.

When schools talk about reading levels, they refer mostly to vocabulary. It is possible to write clearly and maybe interestingly with a limited vocabulary. I think it would be more difficult to write well, given that limit.

If writing well is not a consideration, then it does not matter what level the vocabulary or narrative. For the past year, I have heard complaint after complaint about Dan Brown and Stephanie Meyer, over their poorly written best sellers. I am still trying to master that particular form of low standard.

 

[Auden James]

@ Ogg

Well, writing children stories is a very special subject. And you're actually comparing writing belletristic (adult) texts to writing non-fictional/expository texts for children (Geography textbook) that are simply incomparable. Still, I think comparing Where the Wild Things Are to, for example, The Human Stain is like comparing apples and oranges.

@ sr71plt
I don't think I generalize. You see, there're more than 100.000 stories on this site (or even 200k, I'm not sure). I openly admit that I've not read much more than 1% in total of the theoretically available stories here to this date, but that makes still a good 1000+ stories! Now, honestly, there may be three dozen stories that somewhat made a staying impression on me because of their actual good writing quality (overall), so that I, subjectively, would name them 'literary' -- more or less. And then there are hundreds forgotten after reading and a few of such (sometimes even shocking) bad quality that I, unfortunately, could never forget them. It's all empirical experience...

 

[sr71plt]

Well, writing children stories is a very special subject. And you're actually comparing writing belletristic (adult) texts to writing non-fictional/expository texts for children (Geography textbook) that are simply incomparable. Still, I think comparing Where the Wild Things Are to, for example, The Human Stain is like comparing apples and oranges.

@ sr71plt
I don't think I generalize. You see, there're more than 100.000 stories on this site (or even 200k, I'm not sure). I openly admit that I've not read much more than 1% in total of the theoretically available stories here to this date, but that makes still a good 1000+ stories! Now, honestly, there may be three dozen stories that somewhat made a staying impression on me because of their actual good writing quality (overall), so that I, subjectively, would name them 'literary' -- more or less. And then there are hundreds forgotten after reading and a few of such (sometimes even shocking) bad quality that I, unfortunately, could never forget them. It's all empirical experience...

There are nearly 45,000 authors represented on Lit (that number is accessible from the main menu), so my guess is that the number of stories is probably close to 200,000. And there are a gazillion readers, all with different tastes of what's "good." That seems fine to me.

 

[Weird Harold]

Right now I'm struggling through the poorest written college textbook I've yet had inflicted on me. I swear it looks like the editor took the Word hatchet to it.

It sounds like the authors/publisher of that textbook forgot that the advice to write to the lowest reading level required by the content is all about communicating with the readers. Writing is about communicating. Writing to a lower reading level isn't "dumbing down" unless you change the content as well as the structure. Writing to a lower reading level is making your writing accessible to more readers.


There's nothing wrong with sending the reader to the dictionary occasionally when writing non-fiction. Sending a reader to the dictionary when you're trying to build a mood and suck your readers into it is counterprodutive.

 

[Auden James]

@ sr71plt

200.000 stories and different tastes of 'good' -- OK, if you like. Nonetheless, objectively there exists an intuitive, at least basic, standard among people of what's good writing/literature because otherwise there wouldn't exist such things as 'high culture', 'literary criticism', and works that over the years establish their status as material worth reading, primarily for artistic reasons, for example, Shakespeare's dramas or Dicken's novels, though the readership itself changes with every new generation.

If the answer was completely subjective, we wouldn't be able to differentiate any qualities of writing what you cannot deny we're able to, just compare Meyer's Twilight series with Grisham's novels, both authors wanting to entertain in the first instance. Otherwise creative writing classes were illegitimate as well as literary studies, English in academia in general because any jugdement would be nothing more than a thing of private sense.

@ Weird Harold

Then you've probably never read a postmodern novel, have you? Because irritating the reader is almost the basic principle there, e.g. Paul Auster or Thomas Pynchon, the latter almost incarnating postmodern writing.

 

[sr71plt]

@ sr71plt

200.000 stories and different tastes of 'good' -- OK, if you like. Nonetheless, objectively there exists an intuitive, at least basic, standard among people of what's good writing/literature because otherwise there wouldn't exist such things as 'high culture', 'literary criticism', and works that over the years establish their status as material worth reading, for example, Shakespeare's dramas or Dicken's novels, though the readership itself changes with every new generation.

@ Weird Harold

Then you've probably never read a postmodern novel, have you? Because irritating the reader is almost the basic principle there, e.g. Paul Auster.

What works for me is what sells. Everything I have posted to Lit. has sold (and most is continuing to sell) in the marketplace.

Again, I don't begrudge either writers or readers doing their own thing here. There's more than enough to go around and to meet someone's idea of good.

Guess I'll have to trot off and read some of your stories posted here to see what your concept of "good" is.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Oh! Oh! Oh! Look! Look! Look! See Jane fuck. Fuck, Jane, fuck. See Dick cum. Oh! Oh! Oh! Cum, Dick, cum.

Since they were brother and sister, this would be in the incest category.

 

[Auden James]

Guess I'll have to trot off and read some of your stories posted here to see what your concept of "good" is.

That's not a good idea, really. First off, because it would be extremely arrogant of me to claim that I was impersonating an at least intersubjective 'concept of good'. Furthermore I'm German and my English isn't good enough to translate my own writing adequately. I rather practiced my English in trying to translate a few texts.

And finally my writing, I think, is very 'German'. Perhaps you already know that the Romantic period was overly strong in Germany, though I personally prefer the modern German Expressionism, but still there really is a great difference between Anglo-American and German literary writing 'ways'. The Realism and straightforward story telling, which have become almost the only legitimate writing schools in today's English literature that massively influenced even modern English avantgardists or postmodernists, don't have any comparable tradition in Germany.

Thus I don't think that you'd much enjoy the more or less poor translations. A circumstance that nonetheless doesn't weaken my argument that has nothing to do with my own writing...

 

[sr71plt]

That's not a good idea, really. First off, because it would be extremely arrogant of me to claim that I was impersonating an at least intersubjective 'concept of good'. Furthermore I'm German and my English isn't good enough to translate my own writing adequately. I rather practiced my English in trying to translate a few texts.

And finally my writing, I think, is very 'German'. Perhaps you already know that the Romantic period was overly strong in Germany, though I personally prefer the modern German Expressionism, but still there really is a great difference between Anglo-American and German literary writing 'ways'. The Realism and straightforward story telling, which have become almost the only legitimate writing schools in today's English literature that massively influenced even modern English avantgardists or postmodernists, don't have any comparable tradition in Germany.

Thus I don't think that you'd much enjoy the more or less poor translations. A circumstance that nonetheless doesn't weaken my argument that has nothing to do with my own writing...

That's OK. I read German.

And I'm sure you wouldn't bad mouth what "almost everyone else" writes if you weren't confident that your own writing was good.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh! Oh! Oh! Look! Look! Look! See Jane fuck. Fuck, Jane, fuck. See Dick cum. Oh! Oh! Oh! Cum, Dick, cum.

Since they were brother and sister, this would be in the incest category.

If you can extend this to 800 words, perhaps you should submit it, Box. I'm creeping up right behind you in the volume list of stories posted here.

 

[The_Fool]

Maybe I am projecting, but I think Shakespeare would feel quite at home posting on Lit.

 

[Auden James]

That's OK. I read German.

Interesting. I don't know many people who've chosen German as a foreign language since it isn't that easy too learn and secondly isn't that important today anmore. Deep respect for everyone who even so makes the decision to learn German!

And I'm sure you wouldn't bad mouth what "almost everyone else" writes if you weren't confident that your own writing was good.

Well, not necessarily so. But even Rosamunde Pilcher said that she thinks she has a 'good writing style'. Apart from that I wouldn't call it 'badmouthing', for me it's an inevitable fact on an amateur porn/erotica writing site when there is even so little good written porn/erotica by true literary authors like Henry Miller -- I'm not speaking of so-called 'professional authors' of erotic romance or such.

But, unfortunately, there's only a short and by tendency quiet pretentious (as I was inspired by Nietzsche) essay of mine and one poem in German (the other in English) posted here. However, I plan to submit some fictional stories in the next weeks...

 

[sr71plt]

Interesting. I don't know many people who've chosen German as a foreign language since it isn't that easy too learn and secondly isn't that important today anmore. Deep respect for everyone who even so makes the decision to learn German!

My German isn't from "today," Auden. I lived there in the 50s.

 

[Auden James]

My German isn't from "today," Auden. I lived there in the 50s.

OK, so you were part of the Army or in some other military position? I've just read that you've been a pilot. Wow. Even more interesting. Nonetheless, good luck and enjoy reviving your language skills.

And I see that you actually are a 'professional' writer of ebooks ... well, nothing against you, I respect that (I mean, you earn money with your own creative works!) and my words were simply regarding aesthetic principles, but, seriously, would you place yourself on the same level as Henry Miller? I know that I wouldn't...

EDIT:
Ah, I almost forgot. You indirectly questioned my standard of 'good'. Actually, I want to write this down in form of an essay on the aesthetics of erotic literature in general and pusblished stories on Lit in particular, maybe I'll translate that, too. Anyway, if you want a brief impression of my standard, just take a look at my favourites -- the list is somewhat dated and too narrow but there are also some other really good German stories listed among my favourites! Hence, of course, only if you want, you could take a look.

 

[Boxlicker101]

If you can extend this to 800 words, perhaps you should submit it, Box. I'm creeping up right behind you in the volume list of stories posted here.

Actually, you probably have more stories than I do. I think I have more items, but that includes a lot of bad poems (and some pretty good ones) and you have very few poems.

 

[Stella_Omega]

OK, so you were part of the Army or in some other military position? I've just read that you've been a pilot. Wow. Even more interesting. Nonetheless, good luck and enjoy reviving your language skills.

And I see that you actually are a 'professional' writer of ebooks ... well, nothing against you, I respect that (I mean, you earn money with your own creative works!) and my words were simply regarding aesthetic principles, but, seriously, would you place yourself on the same level as Henry Miller? I know that I wouldn't...

EDIT:
Ah, I almost forgot. You indirectly questioned my standard of 'good'. Actually, I want to write this down in form of an essay on the aesthetics of erotic literature in general and pusblished stories on Lit in particular, maybe I'll translate that, too. Anyway, if you want a brief impression of my standard, just take a look at my favourites -- the list is somewhat dated and too narrow but there are also some other really good German stories listed among my favourites! Hence, of course, only if you want, you could take a look.

Henry Miller's erotic scenes leave my panties bone dry. Just saying.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Henry Miller's erotic scenes leave my panties bone dry. Just saying.

In the sixties they were hot stuff, but now they wouldn't even be worth publishing.

 

[sr71plt]

OK, so you were part of the Army or in some other military position? I've just read that you've been a pilot. Wow. Even more interesting. Nonetheless, good luck and enjoy reviving your language skills.

And I see that you actually are a 'professional' writer of ebooks ... well, nothing against you, I respect that

I was what was called a "dependent of a person"--my father was in the Army.

I'm a professional writer and editor now--but the e-books are just for fun.