Are we writing Quality?

[Otto26]

Quality: Easy to read and follow/understand.

I'm working on improving the quality of my stories.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I think that's mostly true. Quality matters up to a certain point, but beyond that it won't make a big difference at Literotica. It may make a difference elsewhere. It will make a difference to some readers, including me.

Take a look at many contemporary authors. Eloquent prose is NOT a term I'd use to describe. Janet Evanovich, or James Patterson. How about Lee Child with his Jack Reacher series? These just pop up as i think about story tellers.

 

[lovecraft68]

I write stories, the readers can decide if they think they're 'quality' stories.

 

[Cagivagurl]

You'd think. But I can't get over how many people in AH are clearly most interested in being authors of good stories more than arousing their readers. Not a bad thing. Just interesting.

There are many great works contained within Literotica.
What I find unusual is.... Some of the most horribly written stories get high scores. Some of the most superbly written, get average scores.

Personally, I put it down to content winning over writing quality... (Quality, as I judge it.)

I guess as always, the market dictates the price. How do we judge quality??? What sells best is the most popular. Meaning... The most popular is the best, so is obviously the higher quality item...

Maybe... Don't listen to me because I know nothing about literature...

Cagivagurl

 

[shelleycat1]

A story's quality is supported on multiple legs. Enough legs have to be there so it can scuttle into a reader's head, but the high quality ones can get into many people's minds and perhaps for not the same reason.

Look at the filters it has to get through: can it be read (or read out, for some people); is it the right language; is the typeface irritating; are there too many braking errors or is the punctuation so wrong a reader cannot comprehend it; can it catch the reader's attention, and then can it hold it; some readers want plot, some want smut, some want a happy ever after; too long or too over mannered; language too complicated for most readers; does it bring in dissonant politics or opinions that turn off a reader (I'm thinking of anti-semitism that I found in an old book); for fantasy or SF is the world building convincing enough? Sometimes a story has enough legs that you can forget the broken ones and just enjoy it.

I read stories on this site that make me cry. I see stories here that turn me on. I see stories here that have similar elements and just don't hold enough interest. Some of my favourites have virtually no sex - in LW there are a whole set by Todd172 who does stories with no sex, all with great scores. I think that Tefler is writing a great epic, but may never finish.

I look at my own stories and know they are not the highest quality. Some legs are broken. It doesn't matter to me, because I have the satisfaction of writing for myself, I am learning and enjoying the process, and they may entertain some people. When I started I never dreamed that over 4000 people would at least look at a story by me.

 

[JordynsCanvas]

Quality is hard to define.



For me, it's the other way around. I have read genres that really don't appeal to me based on the quality of the writing...

Tell me a wonderful story full of colourful characters where the emotions are stretched and tweaked. If you can do that, I'll read it...

Cagivagurl

Please give my series Always and Forever You a try. Worked on it for almost a year until I thought it was quality storytelling, stretched emotions, and characters the reader would fall in love with. Also, I tried to make it very sexy too.

https://www.literotica.com/authors/JordynsCanvas/works/stories

It would mean a lot.

JC

 

[TheLobster]

In stories? Hard to tell; opinions vary, as you can see in this thread.

On the forums? Much easier. This is page #3, and some posts here have approached the length of a small novella. We are definitely writing quantity.

 

[nice90sguy]

Thinking about when we use expressions like "they make shitty quality shoes" and "high-quality build (cars, apartments)",
I think what we're talking about is care, attention to detail, sound judgement in choice of material, sense of style, built to last vs throwaway etc.

So an entertaining "junk-food" story might be low-quality, but still entertaining and satisfying.

I put a lot of work into some of my stories, and for some of my stories I don't really work that hard and am a bit more careless.

A high-quality erotic story for me:

• Has a careful choice of words
• Has a coherent narrative
• Is immersive (you feel involved in the story and characters)
• Is generally "well-crafted", according to all those rules of thumb we never tire of talking about in this forum.

None of which guarantees I'll enjoy it, because it also has to arouse me, which no amount of "quality" will do, if it's just not my thing. Equally, a low-quality story might hit the spot, in spite of being badly crafted.

 

[AG31]

Thinking about when we use expressions like "they make shitty quality shoes" and "high-quality build (cars, apartments)",
I think what we're talking about is care, attention to detail, sound judgement in choice of material, sense of style, built to last vs throwaway etc.

This is one of the best definitions I've seen.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are many great works contained within Literotica.
What I find unusual is.... Some of the most horribly written stories get high scores. Some of the most superbly written, get average scores.

Personally, I put it down to content winning over writing quality... (Quality, as I judge it.)

I guess as always, the market dictates the price. How do we judge quality??? What sells best is the most popular. Meaning... The most popular is the best, so is obviously the higher quality item...

Maybe... Don't listen to me because I know nothing about literature...

Cagivagurl

Marketing!
One of the challenges here on Lit, as in other areas is getting your story/product in front of the right audience. Allison Krause is an EXTREMELY talented singer and musician. High quality all the way. If she were the opening act for Sabaton she would get booed off the stage. Great product, wrong market.
Some people come to lit looking for a quick stroker, some people want something more. One of the challenges is differentiating that for the audience. How do we communicate to them what kind of story it is?

 

[Cagivagurl]

Marketing!
One of the challenges here on Lit, as in other areas is getting your story/product in front of the right audience. Allison Krause is an EXTREMELY talented singer and musician. High quality all the way. If she were the opening act for Sabaton she would get booed off the stage. Great product, wrong market.
Some people come to lit looking for a quick stroker, some people want something more. One of the challenges is differentiating that for the audience. How do we communicate to them what kind of story it is?

Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well... Wouldn't be the first time.

My reference to marketing and the market dictating the price was more aimed at how do you decide whether something is good or bad???

If there's been a million of them sold, when the market is full of similar items... It's obviously the best... (Most popular) Does that mean it is the best??? Is the market the judge, or are there self imposed (experts) judging it saying this is a very poor item.

I'm a musician, and often compare the world to the world of music.
Pop music is often heavily criticised because it plays to the masses. I'm not a fan myself, but. It is popular.

Trying to judge a stories quality is very difficult. Score doesn't cut it for me. Like music, a story has to provide emotions, highs, lows. Thoughts that make me think. The story must paint a picture in my mind. I want to be able to visualise from the written words. See a character... Hear their voices. I want to feel what they feel...
For me... That's great writing. A high quality story...

There are some very high scoring stories contained within Literotica, that provide none of that. They got high scores because they hit the buttons of the audience. Who didn't care how poorly it was crafter. How clumsy and emotionless it was.

Scores do not indicate quality... Just popularity. Which is an entirely different thing...
Brahms was brilliant. Very high quality...
Pop music, not so great... But way more popular....

What I dislike is seeing people with no more idea than me judging peoples work, and describing it as poorly written, or of lesser quality than others.

Horses for courses. We like what we like, for whatever reason. Your interpretation of quality writing might be completely different to mine...
Neither of us would be right or wrong, just different...
That is the world we live in.

These of course, are only my thoughts and opinions. Not speaking as if I am an expert, or even know anything.

Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

Thinking about when we use expressions like "they make shitty quality shoes" and "high-quality build (cars, apartments)",
I think what we're talking about is care, attention to detail, sound judgement in choice of material, sense of style, built to last vs throwaway etc.

So an entertaining "junk-food" story might be low-quality, but still entertaining and satisfying.

I put a lot of work into some of my stories, and for some of my stories I don't really work that hard and am a bit more careless.

A high-quality erotic story for me:

• Has a careful choice of words
• Has a coherent narrative
• Is immersive (you feel involved in the story and characters)
• Is generally "well-crafted", according to all those rules of thumb we never tire of talking about in this forum.

None of which guarantees I'll enjoy it, because it also has to arouse me, which no amount of "quality" will do, if it's just not my thing. Equally, a low-quality story might hit the spot, in spite of being badly crafted.

I think what you are actually talking about is opinions....
I could say a pair of shoes were shitty... I'm not a cobbler, so my opinion is nothing more than a voiced thought....
They may have been fit for purpose.

Cagivagurl

 

[FidelityBoss]

Quality is hard to define.
I read a lot, I have a list of favoured authors. Why? Because they are able to weave wonderful stories. Where words describe worlds and characters so well, that I can picture it in my mind. I feel drawn into the story. I imagine walking those roads, seeing those Cities and places. For me that is quality of writing. Pictures painted in words.

Literotica is a different animal. Quality in Literotica is more about content than the actual story telling. I have read absolutely awful stories, that have incredible scores. When I analysed why. It was content rather than writing that excited the audience.
For me, it's the other way around. I have read genres that really don't appeal to me based on the quality of the writing...

Tell me a wonderful story full of colourful characters where the emotions are stretched and tweaked. If you can do that, I'll read it...

So, quality in Literotica is hard to judge. Give the readers what they want in content, and it will be well received. Even if the writing is terrible. So, is that a high quality story because it filled the need???

Who knows, not I said the fly...

These are nothing more than my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

Quality definitely means different things in different genres, sometimes it’s the writing, sometimes it’s just delivering exactly what the audience craves. And yeah, a well-told story can pull you in no matter the genre.

 

[FidelityBoss]

I'm the new guy, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've been trying to figure this site out for a long time, way longer than I've been writing here, and I still can't wrap my brain around some of it. But, fundamentally, the real issue here is that most of the subjects we're discussing - 'quality' and 'good vs. bad,' and 'pandering' and the like are completely subjective, as are the criteria for red "Hs" what the red H actually means, what the vote totals and page views and follows and likes all mean.

I can see where both SS and PSG are coming from. This is a common issue in any kind of creative environment. What constitutes good? Who decides what's good? Are quality and popularity synonyms or different concepts? Even in non-erotica, these are debates people have constantly. A book wins the Pulitzer Prize but doesn't sell. Is it really that good? Conversely, shouldn't book sales equate with quality? If Harry Potter sells 600 million books, doesn't that mean the writing is good quality? Does that make JK Rowling a better writer than Hemingway or Dickens? If you write a Pulitzer winning book that nobody but the Pulitzer Committee read, does that make you a better author than Danielle Steele or Stephen King?

I'm going to be betray my real-life profession by answering my own questions the way I've been trained: "It depends."

And a lot of that dependence is on your own values and how you choose to define "good" and "bad," as well as "quality" and "shit" (to use a professional term for bad writing).

I understand and agree with SS that most readers here aren't stupid, and their opinions aren't completely uninformed. This is an erotica website. The true cretins aren't reading stories to get off. They're over on xvideos. If you're coming here, you're looking for a higher end kind of jerk off material, one that requires you to use your mind. And, as far as I am concerned, if I am writing something that gets somebody's dick in their hand and pumping, I'm proud of myself. That's as solid a skill, in my book, as how someone looks on a screen, or their skill in bed IRL.

I also understand and agree with PSG that the voting system here isn't indicative of quality, and I'll even go so far as to say that even the numbers of views and votes doesn't always line up with quality, either. For example - my Valentine's Day story. I know that shit is good. I made my partner cry with that story, and in a good way. Yet while the ratings are good, it's got abysmal views compared to others in the contest and I think I've got the ignominous distinction of being the only 4.6+ rated story that doesn't have a single comment, lol. I know I wrote that well, but I also know that the folks coming here, looking for a Valentine's Day story probably didn't expect to read about St. Valentine getting his head chopped off for marrying Christian soldiers, either. I know I'm not going to win the contest, but I know what I wrote was quality, regardless of the metrics.

And that gets to what I think is the fundamental point PSG makes and continues to make - the site has plenty of metrics, but none of those actually equate to a non-subjective statement that 'this story is good.' For those who are caught up in the metrics, you can do things to juice them, and if that's all you care about, you're probably not going to last very long. I agree completely, having been someone who started off writing saying to myself "I don't care whether anybody likes this" and then was suddenly obsessed with the metrics for three weeks until I got over myself.

Yet, at the same time, there has to be some way to separate the wheat from the chaff. There is a writer in my genre who is absurdly prolific, had 40xs the number of followers I do, yet every time I see his name pop up in the new feed, I groan, because his stories are short, formulaic, weirdly specific and yet not at the same time, and I just don't like them. I think my shit is way better. But I'm sure he disagrees, and his fans apparently like what he's doing.

Anyway, that's enough procrastination. The tl;dr is you guys are both right. Hug it out, and somebody go read my Valentine's Day story and give me a comment for the love of Christ.

Quality vs. popularity is a messy, eternal debate especially here, where "good" could mean Pulitzer-level prose or just really effective jerk-off material. Metrics are fickle, ego is a trap, and at the end of the day? Write what you believe in, even if it’s St. Valentine getting guillotined. (Also, dropping a comment on your story now, justice for the overlooked gem! ) Keep stirring the pot.

 

[Zootonius]

I believe that writing smut and writing quality would violate the Pauli exclusion principle.

 

[Norogaster]

I'm putting the same level of care and effort into the stories I post here that I would for any other platform or publisher. I drew up the office org chart for the Hammersmith stories. Mind you, I'm one of those people with my fetishes listed as "plot, dialogue, good grammar".

Even if the story is just meant as spank material, there's got to be enough build up and a good payoff if people are going to be able to get off to it. If it's erotica, a story that has sex in it, there has to be a story.

My opinion. Get your own.

 

[AG31]

If it's erotica, a story that has sex in it, there has to be a story.

I beg to differ. Sexuality is a strong enough force in our lives that it commands its own literary category. And that category is not just "stories with sex in them." That's not erotica. Erotica is stories about sex. There may or may not be a strong non-sexual component, but if the story is not about sex, then it's not erotica. It's mainstream fiction with some hot, explicit scenes.

I like to call well-written erotica that doesn't contain "a story," simple erotica.

 

[LexxRuthless]

Yep. Not everyone all the time, but there is quality writing on this site.

"It's hard to define, but I know it when I see it."

 

[Norogaster]

I beg to differ. Sexuality is a strong enough force in our lives that it commands its own literary category. And that category is not just "stories with sex in them." That's not erotica. Erotica is stories about sex. There may or may not be a strong non-sexual component, but if the story is not about sex, then it's not erotica. It's mainstream fiction with some hot, explicit scenes.

Valid point.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Even if the story is just meant as spank material, there's got to be enough build up and a good payoff if people are going to be able to get off to it. If it's erotica, a story that has sex in it, there has to be a story.

For some folks - like you and I - yes absolutely, but we are the minority - the extreme minority. The scores here bear that out.

 

[jehoram]

I attempt to write to the highest quality I can attain. Sometimes I succeed. When I do, the comments and votes reassure me that I'm doing something right. But I'm fully aware that for some readers, my writing sucks because it doesn't get them straight to that orgasm they want.

All I can do is submit stuff that's up to my personal standards. I think that's probably true for most of us here.

 

[Baztrachian]

"Quality" is a subjective thing.

If you like a certain genre or subgenre then even a NYT bestseller in another genre won't do it for you.

 

[Cacatua_Galerita]

"Quality" is a subjective thing.

If you like a certain genre or subgenre then even a NYT bestseller in another genre won't do it for you.

Applicability needs consideration.

Imagine you have a Waterman 52 fountain pen in your pocket. It’s a popular and respected vintage pen from the inter-war period – a quality product that is a joy to use. However, your immediate need is to hammer a tent peg into the ground, so you pick up a fist sized rock to achieve your aim. The rock is unbalanced, rough, fractured, and chips fly off as you strike the peg. It’s a poor quality hammer – but is still better than the fountain pen at driving a peg into the dirt. It achieves your goal but there is little satisfaction in its use.

Your desire for a mallet does not diminish the quality of the pen in your pocket. The inherent quality of something should not be subject to your current wants and needs for something of different intent. Botticelli’s The Birth of Venus would make a dreadful teaspoon, but it remains a great work of art.

I agree with your second sentence – not all users here are accepting of differing intents/goals/genres/subgenres.

There are some Lit categories that are not applicable to my tastes, so I avoid them (or cease reading them when I accidentally come across them). Other readers will bomb such stories, even when they are appropriately tagged and categorized for their content. A select few users seek out personally ‘distasteful’ stories, just so they can bomb them as a moral gesture. Such behavior isn’t rating stories on the quality of their storytelling, it’s just an attempt to impose their own values onto others. A pox on those zealots.

Note; if a story is generally distasteful (i.e. it falls outside of the site’s content guidelines) then bombing is reasonable step but reporting it is a must.