limitations and compromises vs. freedom of sexual expression

[eastern sun]

I have no idea, hormones? The right moment. Something he does that gets me going and then I do something - I think it's just the same as it always is - something touches off your attraction for one another and you act on it.

Like Recidiva, the less planning the better - but I will say that talking, scheming together, keeping it in FRONT of me is the best way to keep it floating around out there and more likely to happen.

Stressors kill it. Keeping it one of the major things that you think about is the only antidote.

I am such a function of my hormones, it's as though the rest of my body was created just to do their will.

It's one of the major things I think about, too, especially when stressors are in the mix. I've often turned that on its head, thinking I was focussing on the sex as an escape from the stressful situation. Then it seemed like I was doing something "more bad," because it was obviously not a solution to the problem at hand. Just a temporary release (and sometimes even a creator of new stresses).

It's clear that a number of us who spend time posting on this site think about sex a lot. How much should we be thinking about sex? At what point, does it become obsessive? And why? Why should or shouldn't we become totally engaged with sexual thoughts and fantasies?

 

[eastern sun]

How do life's obligations and responsibilities hamper the full and free expression of your sexuality?
Sometimes they hamper full and free expression and sometimes they aid and abet it. I have some obligations and responsibilities that are pretty much non-negotiable such as family life and work. As someone pointed out, I need the food on the table and the roof over my head, so I work and I don't really feel the need to express my sexuality within that context. Conversely, working in that way allows me to be more sexual, as financially I can afford to acquire some sexual benefits like weekends away, toys, lingerie, wine......

I've always thought there was anecdotal evidence that people with either a lot of money or very little money spent a lot of time thinking about and/or having sex. Whereas the people in the middle were too busy to allow themselves that distraction. I don't know if it's true, but it's seemed to be a common element across the two ends of the economic spectrum.

 

[Recidiva]

Bored, to me is a state of mind. And a luxury.
There is so much to do, so much to read, so much to write, so many places to go, so much food to try, so much shopping to do, so many people to meet ... there is no time to be bored.

But doing nothing, watching mindless tv, crying watching a sad cartoon, walking mindlessly around the city. Or just sleep all day.
Ah ... how I wish for the luxury of boring times!
Even vanilla sex turns out to be a nice change of pace.

All very true, just to make a distinction, there's a big difference between the fear of being bored, and what I was trying to express - the fear of being boring. Two entirely different things.

 

[eastern sun]

Honestly, having learned more about myself in the last 5 years or so, and looking back at my past, I can say that I need a solid primary relationship to be able to express and explore my full range of sexual desires. I need to know that I have a safe place to go back, when I'm tired or when I'm hurt. Or just to enjoy some soul warming peace.

Having that safe haven, I am realizing, it allows me to experience and explore relationships that would be too unbalanced or unhealthy or extreme to be functional as primaries. I can risk a bit more, I can take some more chances because my Hubby will be always there to catch me when I fall.

Why don't we express our deepest desires? When do we decide it's time to act?

I don't express my deepest desires until I'm ready to act on them. And I cannot act on them unless the conditions in my life are ripe for it. When I know that I could not act, desires are not even brought to light, nor verbalized nor even thought out. They are left simmering for the right time.

. . Yes . .

 

[Recidiva]

I've always thought there was anecdotal evidence that people with either a lot of money or very little money spent a lot of time thinking about and/or having sex. Whereas the people in the middle were too busy to allow themselves that distraction. I don't know if it's true, but it's seemed to be a common element across the two ends of the economic spectrum.

My sex drive remains pretty constant despite whether I'm rich or poor.

To me sex is a need, like food. Fortunately you can have really good sex regardless of financial status. Same way that if you're overfed with gourmet food you lose track of hunger, but hunger and hard work and an apple are divine.

I think it would be a personality thing - if you're rich and socially flaunting it, socially flaunting your sex life so everyone knows it is just part of the show. But having lots of sex doesn't mean it would meet my definition of "good."

I'm just not a "more is better" person. To me that's the equivalent of gluttony and pride.

 

[eastern sun]

If sexuality weren't something that humans were so reluctant to discuss, there would be a greater freedom of erotic expression. So, ideally, yes, it would be great to live in that sort of world. Realistically, not so much, since everyone expresses their needs/wants/desires in a different way.

Why do you think humans are so reluctant to discuss their sexuality? Is it because we express our needs/wants/desires in different ways? Are we simply afraid of other people's judgment?

 

[missginger2177]

Why do you think humans are so reluctant to discuss their sexuality? Is it because we express our needs/wants/desires in different ways? Are we simply afraid of other people's judgment?

It's quite possible it is all rooted in religion. I grew up Catholic. And, no matter how much factual evidence I could find about popes having families (cardinals having mistresses and harems and the list goes on); I could never convince a single adult in the religion that sex was OK. Eventually I gave up, dropped the faith, and have since attempted to be who I feel I was always meant to be. Not that it's easy.

I honestly think it is something that is deeply ingrained. I mean think about Genesis -- They ate the fruit and became aware of their nakedness. And, they were ashamed.

That's the key, I think.

 

[eastern sun]

To an extent... I do. Part of my profession (IMO) is helping women see themselves as beautiful, sensual, empowered, desirable people. To let go of body image issues. To let go of the stereotypes. I joke and tease and flash glimpses of my lingerie... It's nearly impossible to spend time with me and not catch bits and pieces of my sexuality, because even when I try to hide it, it peeks through. So in that sense, yes my sexuality is incorporated into the work I do.

You have always struck me as having one of the more clearly defined sexualities on the board, CutieMouse. And your description of yourself at work supports my image of who you are (and want to be seen to be). Even being compartmentalized fits that image.

So, then, I think to myself, this is one integrated woman.

 

[eastern sun]

Anyways... I accept the fact that expressing my full sexuality whenever I wanted to...completely... would probably destroy me.

This is my fear. And I can't tell if it's true self-preservation (in my case, I feel like I do have to stay alive and sound for my kids). Or just fear of . . . . what? The dark?

 

[eastern sun]

All very true, just to make a distinction, there's a big difference between the fear of being bored, and what I was trying to express - the fear of being boring. Two entirely different things.

How are they different?

 

[eastern sun]

My sex drive remains pretty constant despite whether I'm rich or poor.

To me sex is a need, like food. Fortunately you can have really good sex regardless of financial status. Same way that if you're overfed with gourmet food you lose track of hunger, but hunger and hard work and an apple are divine.

I think it would be a personality thing - if you're rich and socially flaunting it, socially flaunting your sex life so everyone knows it is just part of the show. But having lots of sex doesn't mean it would meet my definition of "good."

I'm just not a "more is better" person. To me that's the equivalent of gluttony and pride.

I thought it had more to do with time. The very rich and the very poor that I've known have a lot more time on their hands than "regular folk". They've also had a lot more sex than the middle class people I know holding down jobs. Maybe there's no real correlation. I just thought it was interesting, because the two groups would generally not see themselves as having anything in common.

 

[eastern sun]

It's quite possible it is all rooted in religion. I grew up Catholic. And, no matter how much factual evidence I could find about popes having families (cardinals having mistresses and harems and the list goes on); I could never convince a single adult in the religion that sex was OK. Eventually I gave up, dropped the faith, and have since attempted to be who I feel I was always meant to be. Not that it's easy.

I honestly think it is something that is deeply ingrained. I mean think about Genesis -- They ate the fruit and became aware of their nakedness. And, they were ashamed.

That's the key, I think.

Why would religion want to teach us to repress our sexuality?

 

[Adakgirl]

Don't think it's fear at all. It's just damned good common sense.


Is it time to show my tits yet?

 

[Recidiva]

How are they different?

Being bored is the frustration that happens when you aren't doing something interesting or worthy of your time.

Being boring means that you're the thing that isn't interesting or worthy of someone else's time.

 

[Adakgirl]

nevermind!

 

[Adakgirl]

Don't know!

 

[bruisedangel]

Why do you think humans are so reluctant to discuss their sexuality? Is it because we express our needs/wants/desires in different ways? Are we simply afraid of other people's judgment?

I'm sure it a combination of a myriad of things. Sexuality, in modern historical times at least, has been something that's kept hidden, secret. Religion has a good deal to do with it, even if one is a self-proclaimed atheist. Modern societies are basically founded on the tenets of religion, and that carries down through the generations. At the heart of things, I don't think our desires are all that different from one another. Not at the core. It's the expression of those desires that differs. Have you ever noticed how a good deal of people tend to treat sex as a joke, especially when conversations dealing with the subject turn towards a serious nature? Teenagers do this quite a bit in the face of their blossoming sexuality, and we seem to hold onto that as we age. I suppose people, as a rule, are afraid of other people's judgment. I know that I can't bring up the sorts of things that I like with most of my friends, and not to the fullest extent with any. It's not fear of judgment, exactly. They all think I'm a bit strange, anyway!

 

[Recidiva]

I thought it had more to do with time. The very rich and the very poor that I've known have a lot more time on their hands than "regular folk". They've also had a lot more sex than the middle class people I know holding down jobs. Maybe there's no real correlation. I just thought it was interesting, because the two groups would generally not see themselves as having anything in common.

Okay. I'm trying to get to the essence of the question you've asked and really address that. I don't really know you all that well, and that's a shame, because I've always enjoyed talking to you. Forgive me if I get too personal or too specific.

To ask sort of a baseline question, to put aside how you feel other people stop you, how is it that you stop yourself from expressing what you wish to express? When you get an impulse to express yourself and it's not addicting and it's not dangerous and it's not illegal, what stops you? Do you tell yourself you don't deserve it, or say you don't have time or don't have energy or you won't get cooperation, you're being silly, you're being selfish...what?

Because if you have impulses like "Release the kraken!" and you want to destroy at all times and do awful things all the time...yeah, sometimes the worst advice you can give some people is "be yourself."

But are you too hard on yourself when things aren't horror and addiction and doom? Or do you feel you're just hard enough and that part of you is never coming out to play?

If it's that awful, you KNOW why you're not letting it out to play and you wouldn't be asking the question, any more than you'd ask "Why can't I let my attack rottweiler go tromp through the kindergarten playground at recess?"

I would assume you're asking about the less lethal aspects of self, and if you rein those in as tough as you do the kraken, maybe that's a problem for you right now.

 

[eastern sun]

Don't think it's fear at all. It's just damned good common sense.


Is it time to show my tits yet?

Only if you want to

 

[eastern sun]

Okay. I'm trying to get to the essence of the question you've asked and really address that. I don't really know you all that well, and that's a shame, because I've always enjoyed talking to you. Forgive me if I get too personal or too specific.

To ask sort of a baseline question, to put aside how you feel other people stop you, how is it that you stop yourself from expressing what you wish to express? When you get an impulse to express yourself and it's not addicting and it's not dangerous and it's not illegal, what stops you? Do you tell yourself you don't deserve it, or say you don't have time or don't have energy or you won't get cooperation, you're being silly, you're being selfish...what?

Because if you have impulses like "Release the kraken!" and you want to destroy at all times and do awful things all the time...yeah, sometimes the worst advice you can give some people is "be yourself."

But are you too hard on yourself when things aren't horror and addiction and doom? Or do you feel you're just hard enough and that part of you is never coming out to play?

If it's that awful, you KNOW why you're not letting it out to play and you wouldn't be asking the question, any more than you'd ask "Why can't I let my attack rottweiler go tromp through the kindergarten playground at recess?"

I would assume you're asking about the less lethal aspects of self, and if you rein those in as tough as you do the kraken, maybe that's a problem for you right now.

Good questions. And yes, at the heart of one of my own personal cruxes . . . .

First, this thread was initially my husband's idea, not mine.

I'm pretty convinced that I've got a self-destructive streak, which can be both a blessing and a curse. This self-destructive streak has wreaked both petty and profound havoc in most chapters of my life. I don't feel like I can afford to experiment with self-destruction at this stage of my life, with my kids in the picture.

To pursue my own sexuality to its fullest, I am afraid I would be self-destructive. My husband wants me to trust him with this. In the past, he has encouraged me to do things that led to full-blown addictions. In other words, he lost control to the addict in me.

Ok. So. Now we know that. We don't know if it will be different this time, unless we try. He believes I can trust him to create a safe experience, if I simply follow his lead.

Really?

Is that how it works?

Why didn't it work in the past?

Recidiva, I don't know whether I'm frightened for just cause or not. That's the problem.

It's also why I identify as a "slave." Because in the pursuit of some desires, it's not my well-being that is important.

 

[SapphireD]

How do life's obligations and responsibilities hamper the full and free expression of your sexuality?

Do you regret being unable to fully express yourself?

What compromises are you comfortable with? Why?

Does anyone feel like they are completely free to express the full range of their sexuality?

Is it a goal we should aspire to?

Would you want to live in a world where everyone felt free to express themselves?

********************************************************************************************

Though I'd still like to feel more freedom to be the sexual woman that I am, I recognize that certain limitations need to be placed on the public sphere of any activity.

But privately, I want freedom. To be myself. And within the confines of my private life, I am still limited by work, children, community obligations. I am comfortable compromising in these ways, but am still disappointed.

And then there's the internal world, where I actually have the most freedom, but still place limits around my sexuality. With religious and spiritual doctrines, fears, and prejudices.

Why don't we express our deepest desires? When do we decide it's time to act?

When we take on certain responsibilities in life like children and jobs we are forced to keep our self expressinion in check for the sake of being socially acceptable.
Ultimately society has controls over all of us and we will never be free to totally express ourselves fully. I wish that we could freely do these things as life would be much less complicated and there would be far fewer people with psychological issues from repression. I regret that I have had to put me on hold until this point in my life, but I refuse to believe that it is too late to learn to express myself.

 

[Recidiva]

Good questions. And yes, at the heart of one of my own personal cruxes . . . .

First, this thread was initially my husband's idea, not mine.

I'm pretty convinced that I've got a self-destructive streak, which can be both a blessing and a curse. This self-destructive streak has wreaked both petty and profound havoc in most chapters of my life. I don't feel like I can afford to experiment with self-destruction at this stage of my life, with my kids in the picture.

To pursue my own sexuality to its fullest, I am afraid I would be self-destructive. My husband wants me to trust him with this. In the past, he has encouraged me to do things that led to full-blown addictions. In other words, he lost control to the addict in me.

Ok. So. Now we know that. We don't know if it will be different this time, unless we try. He believes I can trust him to create a safe experience, if I simply follow his lead.

Really?

Is that how it works?

Why didn't it work in the past?

Recidiva, I don't know whether I'm frightened for just cause or not. That's the problem.

It's also why I identify as a "slave." Because in the pursuit of some desires, it's not my well-being that is important.

Okay, that gives me a lot more context, thank you.

With this in mind, it would have to come down to specifics and limits. I'm sure it's doable, I just really don't think it's worth doing.

I have an obsessive personality, but not an addictive one. I will obsess about something, and in the past that's been the occult or gambling or whatever, and I've been very reckless and death-wishy about it all.

I tend to come out of the other side of these experiences sort of indifferent to whatever it was I wanted to learn about by obsessing. And I've scared people who thought I couldn't handle it and generally was insulted when someone else would express disapproval of whatever it was I was obsessing about. Perhaps your husband is treating your addictions like obsessions. What he is trying with you would work - on me. But there's a huge distinction between obsession and addiction.

I do know better than to obsess about things that are just not worth exploring. I would consider it arrogance to decide "Hey, I'm tough and strong, I'm going to take heroin and prove I'm not an addictive personality." If I'm absolutely compelled, I'm sure there's something in there for me to learn, and so far I've been successful in holding my breath, diving down deep and coming back up with the pearl. But I trust my own inner pull, I don't think I'd be able to follow anybody else's lead on it.

In your case, if you don't obsess, but you become addicted and it's a downward spiral, it's something I wouldn't do.

Here the "slave" aspect is to the reactions of your own body. Addiction is not subject to reason or repetition. It doesn't learn. It doesn't desensitize the way it would in someone like me. It will respond to will, sometimes, and as you've discovered, sometimes you just don't dip your toe in again. If you were allergic to peanuts and it caused anaphylactic shock, it's just not really reasonable for someone to say "Let me feed you peanuts, and the power of our love and your trust in me will save you!"

I'm not sure any argument regarding will or love or trust is valid around chemical and biological hard limits. Pushing that does seem to me like arrogance and a lack of understanding of the process of addiction, and particularly how hard it is to get out of it. The cost to you.

I wouldn't go screwing with addictions or patterns that have been destructive in the past without some serious specific hashing out of EXACTLY what you're doing and why, with panic buttons every half inch. And maybe the promise of you getting a yacht or something at the end of it. Calls for a ginormous payout.

I would say from the way you've expressed yourself here, you've got serious doubts. I would go with that. In its own way, those doubts are your freedom of choice asserting itself.

What is it worth to you to NOT have to go there?

 

[eastern sun]

Those fears and doubts are in fact the biggest limitation I put on my own sexuality (and as long as I express them in connection with my concerns for our children my husband will respect them) . . . but . . . enough about me.

I'm really more interested in your take on all this.

 

[eastern sun]

I refuse to believe that it is too late to learn to express myself.

I agree.

I do want to add, regarding social controls, that I was raised in the midst of the 60's counterculture movement, a group of people roundly rejecting the notion of social control, where free love, drug use and self-expression were heralded as the path to liberation.

There were just as many social controls there as anywhere else. When I was a little girl entering puberty, I felt ashamed that I didn't want to take my clothes off to attend the commune meeting. That day I wore my shorts and shirt in the midst of all these naked adults, and felt as confused as I've ever felt about the ways of this world.

 

[Recidiva]

Those fears and doubts are in fact the biggest limitation I put on my own sexuality (and as long as I express them in connection with my concerns for our children my husband will respect them) . . . but . . . enough about me.

I'm really more interested in your take on all this.

I just want to make sure that my take is useful in some way. Thank you for answering my questions. For me, I'm grateful that I have an equilibrium of expectation and reality. Again, I consider myself blessed.