NY exhibit unveils women's lives in ancient Greece - yahoo

[voluptuary_manque]

Bacchus (his alter ego), on the other hand, is most often depicted as a roly-poly drunkard. Go figure.

...on a tangent, I used to own a St. Bernard named Bacchus. Fitting name for one of that breed, I thought

True. Hmmm, is a roly-poly drunkard appealing? If so, I might reconsider being so proud of having shed 20 lbs.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Volupt, women of what age? Young budding women like young budding men. After the woman ages a little, older men seem more attractive. But in the beginning, it is those fresh faced young men that take your breath away. As I recall. Now I love white beards, white sideburns and even no hair on top. Funny, how our vision changes with time.

Ummmm....

There also are more than a few little stories about an island called Lesbos and this certain poet named Sappho...

 

[AllardChardon]

In Greek mythology, maenads were the female followers of Dionysus, often portrayed as inspired by him into a state of ecstatic frenzy, through a combination of dancing and drunken intoxication. In this state, they would lose all self control, begin shouting excitedly, engage in uncontrolled sexual behavior, and ritualistically hunt down and tear animals (and sometimes men and children) to pieces, devouring the raw flesh. During these rites, the maenads would dress in fawn skins and carry a thyrsus, a long stick wrapped in ivy or vine leaves and tipped by a pine cone, wore ivy-wreaths around their heads, and often handled or wore snakes.

Descriptions of Maenadic Practices: The Bacchanalia

Cultic rites associated with worship of the Greek god of wine, Bacchus (or Dionysus), allegedly characterized by maniacal dancing to the sound of loud music and crashing cymbals, in which the revelers, called Bacchantes, whirled, screamed, became drunk and incited one another to greater and greater ecstasy. The goal was to achieve a state of enthusiasm in which the celebrants’ souls were temporarily freed from their earthly bodies and were able to commune with Bacchus/Dionysus and gain a glimpse of and a preparation for what they would someday experience in eternity after their resurrection. The rite climaxed in a performance of frenzied feats of strength and madness, such as uprooting trees, tearing a bull (the symbol of Dionysus) apart with their bare hands, an act called sparagmos, and eating its flesh raw, an act called omophagia. This latter rite was a sacrament akin to communion in which the participants assumed the strength and character of the god by symbolically eating the raw flesh and drinking the blood of his symbolic incarnation. Having symbolically eaten his body and drunk his blood, the celebrants believed they became possessed by Dionysus. The main shrines where these rites took place were at Delphi and Eleusis.

***I think I might have some Maenad blood in my veins, except for the eating raw flesh and drinking blood part.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Keeping in mind, of course, that these descriptions were written by men who were duly horrified and can be suspected of exaggeration. After all, these maenads were completely out of control of the logical paterfamilias and so were terribly, terribly frightening.

Learning to let go of the ones you love is hard and the Ancients weren't any better at it than we are.

 

[AllardChardon]

This has been a wonderful excuse to avoid the season's duties, which along with Christmas duties now includes lots of snow shoveling. We are near two feet now and more is expected. Time to bake cookies before the next big dump expected this evening.

Wishing all nymphs, maenads, Dionysian devotees and revelers of all kinds the best Christmas ever.

Allard

 

[AllardChardon]

I forgot to add that Dionysus was always considered a "foreigner" by the rest of the Olympian Gods. Maybe, because he had a mortal mother and all.

Apollo might be good fare for tomorrow. We will see how much time I have for goofing off. LOL

 

[AllardChardon]

The Twelve Olympians first:

The classical scheme of the Twelve Olympians (the Canonical Twelve of art and poetry) comprises the following gods: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia. The respective Roman scheme comprises the following gods: Jupiter, Juno, Neptune, Ceres, Mars, Mercury, Vulcan, Venus, Minerva, Apollo, Diana and Vesta.

At Kos, Heracles and Dionysus are added to the Twelve, and Ares and Hephaestus are left behind.

The Twelve Olympians gained their supremacy in the world of gods after Zeus led his siblings to victory in war with the Titans. Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Hestia, and Hades were siblings. Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, the Charites, Heracles, Dionysus, Hebe, and Persephone were children of Zeus. Although some versions of the myth state that Hephaestus was born of Hera alone.

***For the record. Next, the Gods and Goddesses listed with their particular part in the scheme of things.

Anyone have a favorite Greek God or Goddess? Goddess: I have always liked Persephone and the story of the seasons. God: Poseidon has always stirred my soul. I still want to meet him and I don't mean the one in the Disney movie, either.

 

[trysail]

...Anyone have a favorite Greek God or Goddess? ...

Pallas Athena has always been my patron saint.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Athena_ciste.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas_Athena

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I wish it were Pan

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/th_panandnymph.jpg


but in reality, I'm an Apollonian. sigh . . .

 

[cloudy]

Diana/Artemis is mine. She fits me rather well.

http://zero-point.tripod.com/diamondbody/Artemis.jpg

 

[AllardChardon]

Here's the list I promised:

Zeus/ Jupiter: King of the Gods and ruler of Mount Olympus; god of the sky, thunder, and justice. First Generation.

Hera/ Juno: Queen of the Gods and of the heavens; goddess of women, marriage, and motherhood. First Generation.

Poseidon/ Neptune: Lord of the Sea; god of the seas, earthquakes, created horses. First Generation.

Demeter/ Ceres: Goddess of fertility, agriculture, nature, and the seasons. First Generation.

Hestia/ Vesta: Goddess of the hearth and home (left so Dionysus could be in the twelve). First Generation.

Aphrodite/ Venus: Goddess of love, beauty, desire, and fertility. Second Generation.

Apollo/ Apollo: The Sun God; god of light, healing, music, poetry, prophecy, archery and truth. Second Generation.

Ares/ Mars: God of war, frenzy, hatred, and bloodshed. Second Generation.

Artemis/ Diana: Goddess of the hunt, of maidens, and the moon. Second Generation.

Athena/ Minerva: Goddess of wisdom, crafts, and strategic battle. Second Generation.

Hephaestus/ Vulcan: Blacksmith to the Gods; god of fire and the forges. Second Generation.

Hermes/ Mercury: Messenger of the Gods; god of commerce, speed, thieves, and trade. Second Generation.

Persephone does not rank in the top twelve, but Poseidon does.

 

[ishtat]

Those are some pretty interesting points. Considering that Dionysos was about as anti-domestic as a god could be, I'd like to hear more of how you see him as replacing Hestia.

I'll grant that he did have a good whiff of resurrection and eating of the divine flesh about him, but most mystery cults did.

Not arguing here, but interested in hearing more of these ideas.

As you say, in character Dionysos was not remotely similar to Hestia. She was an inactive representation of hearth and home to whom almost no myth is attached (she only gets about 4 lines in the whole of Homer )

Conversely Dionysus was an ancient (His name has been found in Linear B script in Crete) and originally probably a vegetative god whose festival was held in Spring when the new shoots particularly of the vine renewed. In different places and times he acquired all sorts of characteristics principally as a bringer of happiness but also of madness.

His replacement of Hestia may seem odd at first but maybe not so much if the origins of the whole of the Greek pantheon is considered . Most, not all but most modern scholars take the view that the Olympian pantheon arose as a result of a conflict between two cultures in pre- literate Greece. The invaders who were probably pastoralists conquered the original inhabitants who were farmers. The gods of the invaders were the warlike vengeful stroppy characters like Zeus, Poseidon, Ares, Hades, Athene etc. Their myths tell the stories of how they ran the show to suit themselves. Then there were less assertive gods like Hestia, Hera, Demeter and initially Dionysos. However this latter group were considered very important by the subject population as they were responsible for the basics of life like fertility, mothering, the household and so on.

The inner circle of 12 Olympians was therefore a compromise with the invader Gods amalgamating with a few of the subject peoples gods. However as any reading of the myths will show, some Gods were more equal than others. Zeus for example gave Hera (an ancient mother goddess) a rotten time with constant infidelities. Hades seduced Demeter's daughter, Much of the role of the Fates (who like Demeter weren't even included in the 12) was also taken over by the new gods.

The fact that the more assertive new gods took over many of the roles of the older gods is illustrated in many of the myths but can also be seen through the fact that the new ruling class in Greece built big public temples to their gods but very few to a goddess like Hestia. Additionally archeological work over the last 70 years has uncovered hundreds of small votary images of the older gods of the farmers but they have invariably been found in domestic situations.

The conflict between pastoralists and farmers referred to above is variously dated to between about 1700 and 1400 BCE and may have been gradual.
The old farmers Gods were however very persistent and retained the support of the lower classes. As late as 415 BCE for example the educated urban class in Athens decided that they would carry out a night raid on the local farmers and break the phallus's of the statues(Herms, fertility totems) which the farmers had erected in their fields. The farmers were so upset that they forced the city authoities to prosecute the perpetrators. The interesting point here is that at this date Socrates was at the height of his power and influence. We as modern westerners tend to assume that the great thinker was the important influence, but not necessarily in his own time. ( sorry that last bit was off topic)

As Dionysos became more associated with both pleasure and madness (ecstasy) through wine rather than just being a vegetation god it seems that he acquired the power in the minds of the people to warrant him becoming an Olympian. However most of what we know about his cult is pure speculation. We know that the Roman Senate eventually banned, unsuccessfully his festival but why is unclear . The tearing of flesh, orgies etc have no independent attestation.

I suspect that Dionysos was the most important of the mystery cults to the development of christianity for a couple of reasons. Firstly a disproportionate number of the early christians appear to have been women and initially all of Dionysos's adherents had been women. Secondly the idea of resurrection was important to his followers long before JC came along. However as you say the idea of a reborn god/king had been present in dozens of religions for several thousand years already.

Sorry if this response has rambled a bit but I am separated from all my references at the moment.

Note to Allard You missed Hades from the original 12 Olympians but Demeter wasn't a member, she had already been relegated to the outer group of 14.

 

[AllardChardon]

Ishtat, great response to the Doc.

You are right, of course, about Hades. I don't know how much a person can trust Wikipedia but this is where I was lifting my information. And this is what that same article about Hades.

"Plato connected the Twelve Olympians with the twelve months, and proposed that the final month be devoted to rites in honor of Pluto and the spirits of the dead, implying that he considered Hades, one of the basic chthonic deities, to be one of the Twelve. Hades is phased out in later groupings due to his chthonic associations. In Phaedrus Plato aligns the Twelve with the Zodiac and would exclude Hestia from their rank."

Also: "Chthonic (from Greek χθόνιος - chthonios, "in, under, or beneath the earth", from χθών - chthōn "earth; pertaining to the Earth; earthy; subterranean) designates, or pertains to, deities or spirits of the underworld, especially in relation to Greek religion.

The Greek "khthon" is one of several words for "earth"; it typically refers to the interior of the soil, rather than the living surface of the land (as Gaia or Ge does) or the land as territory (as khora (χώρα) does). It evokes at once abundance and the grave.

Some chthonic cults practised ritual sacrifice, which often happened at nighttime. When the sacrifice was a living creature, the animal was placed in a bothros ("pit") or megaron ("sunken chamber"). In some Greek chthonic cults, the animal was sacrificed on a raised bomos ("altar"). Offerings usually were burned whole or buried rather than being cooked and shared among the worshippers.

Not all Chthonic cults were Greek, nor did all cults practice ritual sacrifice; some performed sacrifices in effigy or burnt vegetable offerings."

Back to Hades. It seems to me since he did not live on Mt. Olympus with the other twelve, he was not considered one of them by some experts. Very powerful and important, but not one of them. The Olympians seemed rather snobbish. That is why I would prefer to worship them. It is their beautiful and hideous humaness that I relate to.

 

[ishtat]

Diana/Artemis is mine. She fits me rather well.

http://zero-point.tripod.com/diamondbody/Artemis.jpg

With respect to her role for the chase or the chaste?

 

[cloudy]

With respect to her role for the chase or the chaste?

The role of huntress, of course.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The role of huntress, of course.

Yeah, but running throw the woods wearing nothing but sandals? Intriguing image but not particularly practical for a mortal.

 

[cloudy]

Yeah, but running throw the woods wearing nothing but sandals? Intriguing image but not particularly practical for a mortal.

Who says I'm a mortal?

(barefoot is really better)

 

[AllardChardon]

Back to Maenads, or the madwomen who followed Dionysus. Anyone know of any fictional stories with these women as characters, other than Greek tales? Tom Robbins wrote rather lovingly of Pan in Jitterbug Perfume. Anything like that out there?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Back to Maenads, or the madwomen who followed Dionysus. Anyone know of any fictional stories with these women as characters, other than Greek tales? Tom Robbins wrote rather lovingly of Pan in Jitterbug Perfume. Anything like that out there?

Nothing that I know of. They'd make a difficult set of characters to write for, I'd imagine. Just think of the mood swings!

 

[AllardChardon]

Volupt, I was thinking just the opposite. I see a caravan of mad women, dressed outlandishly, screaming obsenities at the top of their lungs and enoucouraging the local women to come along for the ride. All of this is going on behind Dionysus in his private coach doing whatever he does best. I feel the urgings of my muse taking hold...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Volupt, I was thinking just the opposite. I see a caravan of mad women, dressed outlandishly, screaming obsenities at the top of their lungs and enoucouraging the local women to come along for the ride. All of this is going on behind Dionysus in his private coach doing whatever he does best. I feel the urgings of my muse taking hold...

And of course the men are too terrified to attempt any interference, knowing full well what will happen if the god is the slightest bit irked. All that they can do is sacrifice to Zeus and hope that he will intervene and bring their women home . . . after entertaining himself with the more attractive of them, of course.

 

[AllardChardon]

That's the spirit! The story would leave the men in the dust and proceed into the forest with lots of wine aboard.

I found this on a very interesting site for maenads:

The core ritual associated with the worship of Dionysus among the Greeks was orgiastic, meaning that it involved states of trance-like ecstasy, “outside-of-one selfness,” merging with and possession by the god. It was celebrated every two years, at mid-winter near the time of the solstice, on barren mountain tops, especially Mt. Parnassus overlooking Delphi. The summit of Parnassus is more than 2,438 meters (8,000 feet) high and was quite cold during these winter revels. The pilgrimage to the holy shrine of the oracle of the Delphi at the top was via Eleusis and the sacred city of Thebes. Dionysus ruled from December till February and Apollo ruled the other nine months.

In the play Antigone, playwright Sophocles describes the scene:

"Surrounded by the light of torches, he stands high on the twin summits of Parnassus, while the Corycian nymphs dance around as Bacchantes, and the waters of Castalia sound from the depths below. Up there in the snow and winter darkness Dionysus rules in the long night, while troops of maenads swarm around him, himself the choir leader for the dance of the stars and quick of hearing for every sound in the waster of the night."

This is getting better all the time.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Given the average Athenian citizen's attitude towards women, it couldn't happen to a better lot.

 

[AllardChardon]

Yes, I tend to agree.

I found this at the same spot.

There were three parts to this ritual:

oreibasia (“mountain dancing”): To the accompaniment of flutes, drums, and cymbals, the worshippers, particularly women, danced themselves into ecstatic trances.

sparagmos (“tearing to pieces”): In these trances they caught snakes and small animals and dismembered them with their bare hands.

omophagia (“eating raw flesh”): By eating the bloody flesh of these animals, the worshippers became one with the god and with the wild natural forces that he represented.

The Maenads were also known as Bacchantes (or Bacchae or Bassarids ) in Roman mythology, after the penchant of the equivalent Roman god, Bacchus, to wear a fox-skin (bassaris).

The behavior of Maenads in stories is intended to explain and display the intoxicating effects of alcohol. In some cases, the alcohol causes bizarre behavior in people and cannot be justified or explained by any other reason except that of the intoxication.

***It is very bloody, but I think I could deal with that effectively.

 

[AllardChardon]

And this is very intriguing:

TRANCE DANCE: Dr. Gilbert Rouget, the expert in Ethnomusicology at University of Paris says nothing has yet been identified which will reliably invoke a trance. While the disorientation of the inner ear or the 'driving' effects of the drums or bells or noise on the nervous system are important contributing factors, none explain it fully. Dancers themselves have a ready explanation; they say it is the Deity.

"Without the Divine participation, there is no Divine trance, only a kind of hypnosis. That's not what we're after. The Mænadic Dance is ritual and the effect comes from a combination of all the ritual factors --- from the music and movement to the spiritual state of the dancer and the grace of the God."