NY exhibit unveils women's lives in ancient Greece - yahoo

[TE999]

The USA does the same . . . encouraging naturalized citizens, immigrants, and those from protected territories to enlist in the military.

Some policies never lose their lustre.

Quite often these individuals have a heightened sense of duty to their adopted country...likewise residents of the southern states are more proportionally represented in the armed services than other areas of the nation. Neither are reticent about their patriotisim.

 

[slyc_willie]

Quite often these individuals have a heightened sense of duty to their adopted country...likewise residents of the southern states are more proportionally represented in the armed services than other areas of the nation. Neither are reticent about their patriotisim.

Could be . . . when I was a naive young soldier, I noticed a good many of my compatriots were indeed from southern states and territories such as Puerto Rico. Almost unfailingly, however, they had joined due to economic/financial/patriarchical issues. The majority of them had enlisted because they got some girl pregnant, were fleeing prosecution, or wanted money for college. Not exactly what you would call a heightened sense of duty.

There were very few of us who joined because we truly wanted to be soldiers.

Four and a half years later, considering all I had done in the name of my country, I wondered why I had made the choice to begin with. I was not exactly comfortable with my choices, and my actions in the line of duty.

But I still hold to the axiom that a man or woman should not join the military unless they wish to be a soldier, marine, seaman, or airman above all else. Otherwise, they are in for a very rude awakening.

 

[TE999]

But I still hold to the axiom that a man or woman should not join the military unless they wish to be a soldier, marine, seaman, or airman above all else. Otherwise, they are in for a very rude awakening.

Roger that. I watched a lot of (initially) gung-ho recruits fall by the wayside in boot camp once they decided that discipline wasn't their bag...those of us who remained went on to fulfill our obligations to Uncle Sammy...and many re-upped.

I was not one of them. My sights by then were on other goals and aspirations.

ETA: G'night slyc.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think she's kind of whitewashing Dionysos by trying to present him as the god of some sort of Grecian tupperware parties. That's not the view of him presented in Euripides' play The Bacchae, where his followers rip apart a male who's caught spying on his rites and devour his flesh.

Dionysos was the god of ecstasy and was not a nice guy.

 

[Safe_Bet]

I think she's kind of whitewashing Dionysos by trying to present him as the god of some sort of Grecian tupperware parties. That's not the view of him presented in Euripides' play The Bacchae, where his followers rip apart a male who's caught spying on his rites and devour his flesh.

Dionysos was the god of ecstasy and was not a nice guy.

You make that sound like a BAD thing...

 

[cloudy]

I've absolutely no doubt our system of government and culture was specifically and purposefully derived from the Greek ideal.

In the area of government, you're mistaken.

Our system of government was taken from the Iroquois Confederacy, not the Greeks. Somehow, that's always forgotten.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

In the area of government, you're mistaken.

Our system of government was taken from the Iroquois Confederacy, not the Greeks. Somehow, that's always forgotten.

Not by this historian, it isn't! And in the occasional year when I teach American history instead of the Ancient World, I make a definite point of putting that on the Constitution test. I also point out that the Founders specifically left out the power that the Confederacy women had in their government. The men might vote a war chief in but if his mother-in-law didn't like the way he did his job, she and all her friends and relatives could fire the man.

ETA: Doc makes a good point. Dionysis wasn't even originally a Greek god, he was an Eastern divinity and decidedly strange. Without having seen the exhibit (more's the pity) or read the catalog, the article certainly gives me the impression that the curator has given the Greeks another whitewash.

 

[cloudy]

Not by this historian, it isn't! And in the occasional year when I teach American history instead of the Ancient World, I make a definite point of putting that on the Constitution test. I also point out that the Founders specifically left out the power that the Confederacy women had in their government. The men might vote a war chief in but if his mother-in-law didn't like the way he did his job, she and all her friends and relatives could fire the man.

It always amazes me when people have this idea of native women as passive, voiceless people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[xssve]

This is debatable, according to wikipedia: women were empowered in the Iroquois Confederacy, which is one aspect of the Iroquois constitution that did not make it into ours.

You could certainly do a lot worse than copy the Iroquois, that is less debatable.

If anything, my hunch is that the American constitution was inspired in no small part by Adam Smith and his elucidation of competition and market theory - I say this because the American constitution differs from all other political systems and theories in that it recognizes the power of consensus, and enshrines it, creating a government that is designed to be self limiting through competition - separation of powers, essentially, a competitive market for political power.

This is a fairly unique element compared to any previous system of government, such competition naturally evolves and all forms of democratic, or semi-democratic government are marked by power struggles between democratic legislative bodies, the Roman senate, French parliament, and monarchs - the Holy roman Empire and various other monarchs and confederacies, the German confederacies, etc., but the American constitution is the first that explicitly recognizes it and bases the entire scheme on the notion of competing power structures themselves: no one branch can do anything, theoretically, without some support from the others, this is one of the more revolutionary aspects of the American constitution, up until then, the ability of monarchs to accumulate power tended to undermine all attempts at democracy eventually, including the French.

Patronage systems tend to undermine democratic institutions, and monarchies are the ultimate patronage systems - monarchs gain power by protecting the status quo, wealthy elites, who are often at odds with democratic reforms. Everyone likes the notion of a meritocracy on paper, but ambition is not always synonymous with ability, from either end: those with ambition don't always possess merit, those with merit aren't always ambitious.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

It always amazes me when people have this idea of native women as passive, voiceless people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Damned Straight! The NOVA video on the historically accurate Pocohantas should be required viewing in all American History classes dealing with the early colonies. Very impressive young woman!

 

[freshface]

In the area of government, you're mistaken.

Our system of government was taken from the Iroquois Confederacy, not the Greeks. Somehow, that's always forgotten.

I think it more accurate to say that our system came from a variety of different sources. Certainly the Iroquois Confederacy, but also the Greeks, and even the Presbyterians. It was designed by a group of men who had extensive experience in their colonial governments and over a hundred years of history describing what did and didn't work. With thirteen colonies, a classical education, exposure to how the natives did it, and decades of experience themselves at governing, they were able to take what worked from a bunch of different systems. Even then, it had to be refined when the Articles of Confederation didn't work out as intended.

 

[AllardChardon]

The early settlers were escaping religious persecution from English monarchs, who continued to feud over whether to remain with Catholicism or change it, after Henry VIII dropped his bomb on the British Isles.

As English subjects, our founding fathers had learned what they did not want from government and drafted the Constitution accordingly. The English were influenced by Roman and Greek laws as well as native American forms of government, but they were still disgruntled subjects of a distant and somewhat crazy monarch in England, King George III.

But, I would much rather talk of Dionysis and his lusty nature...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The early settlers were escaping religious persecution from English monarchs, who continued to feud over whether to remain with Catholicism or change it, after Henry VIII dropped his bomb on the British Isles.

As English subjects, our founding fathers had learned what they did not want from government and drafted the Constitution accordingly. The English were influenced by Roman and Greek laws as well as native American forms of government, but they were still disgruntled subjects of a distant and somewhat crazy monarch in England, King George III.

But, I would much rather talk of Dionysis and his lusty nature...

Dionysis doesn't seem to have been particularly lusty. I'm not aware of any myths that feature him pursuing anything but another khyton of wine. Pan, now, there was a lusty chap!

 

[trysail]

I find it odd that scholars debate this at all. Women are women and shall remain so. Some are warriors, peacemakers, breadmakers or deep thinkers. Most women were also mothers at some point, but not for their entire lives. They must have had other interests and made significant impacts on their communities through their interest. I think Athenian women have gotten a bad rap, thanks to scholars preferring to argue rather than agree.

Notwithstanding "political correctness," facts are facts and cultures are cultures. The role of women in society and culture varies enormously to this very day.

Then, of course, there's the little problem of socio-anthopologists like Margaret Mead who made it all up.

Get hold of the PBS DVD "The Spartans". The presenter (who is one hawt chick professor) makes a really good case that we derive as much of ourselves from them as we do the more celebrated Athenians. Certainly in the Greek world it was the Spartans that other poleis looked up to considering the Athenians imperialistic, mad and disorganized.

VM- Bettany Hughes was "hawt" in the PBS series "The Spartans" (and she was [ and is ] clearly well aware of the fact). I think that a-not-insignificant portion of her portrayal and characterizations of Spartan society, history and culture was shaded and embellished to make a better story and to please a well-known, focus-grouped, audience demographic. She was ( and is ) a little too slick and glib for my tastes.

The production was entertaining but I am skeptical of its strict accuracy.

 

[slyc_willie]

In the area of government, you're mistaken.

Our system of government was taken from the Iroquois Confederacy, not the Greeks. Somehow, that's always forgotten.

You're right. I would have done better to say "influenced."

 

[AllardChardon]

Right on, Volupt. Let's talk Pan and his lusty nature. I like the fact that he enjoyed nymphs, lots of nymphs. And wine, lots of wine.

 

[ishtat]

But, I would much rather talk of Dionysis and his lusty nature...

The two most interesting things about Dionysus are:-

1 That he replaced Hestia the old goddess of the hearth and household thus confirming the diminishing role of the female Gods in the Olympian pantheon as well as the increasing subjugation of women in Greek society.

2 His mystery cult had a far greater influence on the development of the religion later known as Christianity than most of its adherents acknowledge.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The two most interesting things about Dionysus are:-

1 That he replaced Hestia the old goddess of the hearth and household thus confirming the diminishing role of the female Gods in the Olympian pantheon as well as the increasing subjugation of women in Greek society.

2 His mystery cult had a far greater influence on the development of the religion later known as Christianity than most of its adherents acknowledge.

Those are some pretty interesting points. Considering that Dionysos was about as anti-domestic as a god could be, I'd like to hear more of how you see him as replacing Hestia.

I'll grant that he did have a good whiff of resurrection and eating of the divine flesh about him, but most mystery cults did.

Not arguing here, but interested in hearing more of these ideas.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Those are some pretty interesting points. Considering that Dionysos was about as anti-domestic as a god could be, I'd like to hear more of how you see him as replacing Hestia.

I'll grant that he did have a good whiff of resurrection and eating of the divine flesh about him, but most mystery cults did.

Not arguing here, but interested in hearing more of these ideas.

Hestia just got pushed aside because the men were completely in charge in Athens and liked paying attention more to wine than to domestic bliss. As to the roots of Christianity being found in Dionysian cult worship? That would be hard to establish, given how secret the Doinysians were. There simply isn't anything in the way of actual accounts of what went on one can clearly point to. I agree with Doc on this one.

 

[AllardChardon]

This is fascinating reading.

I found this at Wikipedia: When Hestia, goddess of the hearth and home decided to leave the Council of Twelve and tend to the fireplace of all family houses. Zeus chose Dionysus to take her place on Olympus as the immortal god of wine, revelry, and parties.

Back to learning about maenads now.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

This is fascinating reading.

I found this at Wikipedia: When Hestia, goddess of the hearth and home decided to leave the Council of Twelve and tend to the fireplace of all family houses. Zeus chose Dionysus to take her place on Olympus as the immortal god of wine, revelry, and parties.

Back to learning about maenads now.

I wonder why it had to be twelve? Funny number, that.

 

[AllardChardon]

Back to Dionysus for a moment. Things to know: He is also the Roman God Bacchus, of course, and therefore the God of the Vine and lots of wine. Dionysus was also known as the Liberator (Eleutherios), freeing one from one's normal self, by madness, ecstasy, or wine.

Dionysus is described as being womanly or "man-womanish". He was "twice born" due to his mother, a mortal named Semele, dying before he was born in one version. Zeus sewed him Dionysus up in his thigh until he was ready to be born, again. Life, death and resurrection were always part of the mysterious cult's rituals that honored him.

Next his mysterious cult.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Back to Dionysus for a moment. Things to know: He is also the Roman God Bacchus, of course, and therefore the God of the Vine and lots of wine. Dionysus was also known as the Liberator (Eleutherios), freeing one from one's normal self, by madness, ecstasy, or wine.

Dionysus is described as being womanly or "man-womanish". He was "twice born" due to his mother, a mortal named Semele, dying before he was born in one version. Zeus sewed him Dionysus up in his thigh until he was ready to be born, again. Life, death and resurrection were always part of the mysterious cult's rituals that honored him.

Next his mysterious cult.

Especially in post-Renaissance images, he is depicted as soft, beardless and effeminate. Not quite the figure most women I know (or think I know) would look for as a partner in an orgy.

 

[cloudy]

Especially in post-Renaissance images, he is depicted as soft, beardless and effeminate. Not quite the figure most women I know (or think I know) would look for as a partner in an orgy.

Bacchus (his alter ego), on the other hand, is most often depicted as a roly-poly drunkard. Go figure.

...on a tangent, I used to own a St. Bernard named Bacchus. Fitting name for one of that breed, I thought

 

[AllardChardon]

Volupt, women of what age? Young budding women like young budding men. After the woman ages a little, older men seem more attractive. But in the beginning, it is those fresh faced young men that take your breath away. As I recall. Now I love white beards, white sideburns and even no hair on top. Funny, how our vision changes with time.

Back to the Dionysus cult from Wikipedia:

The Dionysian Mysteries probably began as an ancient initiation society, or family of similar societies, centred on a primeval nature god (and his consort), apparently associated with horned animals, serpents and solitary predators (primarily big cats), later known to the Greeks in the eclectic figure of Dionysus. It seems to have first taken organised form in Minoan Crete or Greece between 3000 BCE and 1000 BCE. When absorbed into Greek culture, it gradually evolved into a complex mystery religion that utilized intoxicants and other trance inducing techniques, such as dance and music, to remove inhibitions and artificial societal constraints, liberating the individual to return to a more natural and primal state. It also afforded a degree of liberation for the marginals of Greek society: women, slaves and foreigners.

In their final phase the Mysteries apparently shifted from a chthonic, primeval orientation to a transcendental, mystical one, with Dionysus altering his nature accordingly (much in the same way as happened in the cult of Shiva, Dionysos' eastern counterpart, according to some). Other scholars see these Mysteries, with their resurrected god and secret knowledge about the afterlife, as the precursor of the Eleusinian Mysteries, Orphic Mysteries, Gnosticism and Early Christianity. Manifestations of all its phases are said to have existed in a diverse range of Dionysos cults on the shores of the Mediterranean up until late Roman times.

*** Of course I looked up the Eleusinian and Orphic Mysteries, which both give advantages in the afterlife and sometimes involve psychedelic substances. Today's "rave" dances are very similar in description of the euphoria achieved.

Next maenads.