Delving the Psyche of Masochists...

[intothewoods]

A few people hinted at this in another thread. I'm playing off RJ's Delving the Psyche of Sadists Thread, of course: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=287554

I am not a heavy bottom by any means, but I do enjoy pain. It's a huge release for me. It's erotic, cathartic, a way to connect to my PYL. In the context of a play session with a Top other than my PYL, it's a different experience. Taking the pain isn't a means of submission. It's more of an internal battle of wills to get myself to let go. I have a huge initial panic reaction to stingy pain, but if I can get past it the session can be really good.

And then there is humiliation. I can take a lot of the right kind of humiliation. I don't know what that's all about, except that I'm a sucker for the good girl/bad girl dichotomy. I am a huge pleaser, and I hang on to my mistakes forever. If I can connect the pain, humiliation, whatever to my sins, I'll take a whole heck of a lot, and still think I deserve more. I never forgive myself for anything. Not really. That's a big part of masochism for me. I will suffer again and again and again for anything, really. Feeling pain, humiliation, suffering in any visceral way in the moment is better than torturing myself for some past sin. This is all very Yom Kippur appropriate, btw.

Well, I just wanted to get the ball rolling. What is masochism for you?

Here's a question -- is there a difference between heavy bottoms who enjoy pain, and masochists who enjoy hating the pain? Or are heavy bottoms just enjoy the suffering?

 

[CutieMouse]

I've been kicking the idea for a thread like this around in my head for a while now, but haven't been quite sure how to do it... I'll be around.

 

[BiBunny]

I sort of draw a line in my head between painsluttery (yeah, I invented a word) and masochism.

Masochism, for me, is the desire to suffer for another. I may or may not enjoy the suffering, but its root is the need to suffer for someone else's pleasure. This is NOT a common occurrence for me.

Painsluttery is the opposite--it's for me to get my rocks off. This, on the other hand, happens on a fairly regular basis.

I'll be a painslut for anyone. But I'm only a masochist for love.

/Bunny ramble

 

[intothewoods]

I sort of draw a line in my head between painsluttery (yeah, I invented a word) and masochism.

Masochism, for me, is the desire to suffer for another. I may or may not enjoy the suffering, but its root is the need to suffer for someone else's pleasure. This is NOT a common occurrence for me.

Painsluttery is the opposite--it's for me to get my rocks off. This, on the other hand, happens on a fairly regular basis.

I'll be a painslut for anyone. But I'm only a masochist for love.

/Bunny ramble

Ah, okay, yeah I was wondering if there was a difference. Thanks. I can wrap my head around that, but in practice I have to go through a whole lot to get the release of pain. I can't just throw my clothes off and yell hit me, hit me hard!

I've been kicking the idea for a thread like this around in my head for a while now, but haven't been quite sure how to do it... I'll be around.

I know. This is my way of poking you.

 

[Homburg]

I won't pretend to be maso, but I do have my maso tendencies. My chosen physical activities are ones that tend to put me into pain (powerlifting, trailriding on my bike, and MMA previously), and I can get into the idea that I enjoy the pain from those. It is not a sexual enjoyment, however, so not actual masochism. I dig it though.

Oh, and I can totally grok the mindset when I'm getting serious massage done on my neck and shoulders. Hurts like a stone cold mother fucker, but I'll keep going and ask for more, even to the point of getting damaged in the process. I guess I'm an irresponsible, shitty bottom when it comes to that

All of this is a precursor to me saying that I am looking forward to the discussion that I hope to see here.

 

[CutieMouse]

I know. This is my way of poking you.

Sigh... with friends like these, yadayadayada.

The masochism thing has been an interesting journey; such a multifaceted and complex issue. When I "found" BDSM, I swore up and down I might be submissive, but I wasn't one of those sorts of people - the ones who want humiliation and and pain and bad things... and now several years later, I find myself having conversations with people at work saying I'm not really that interested in dating at the moment [because what's the point if it means intimacy without pain mindfucks and humiliation*?] I don't really say that out loud, of course, but it's what I'm thinking.

There are several different issues at work in my masochism (speaking in terms of the physical aspect at the moment) - penance, clarity, strength, service. Probably a few more, but those are the biggies.

Penance - Lord bless me but I'm hard on myself. I've always been hard on myself, even in childhood. And my penitent streak has always been there from my earliest memory. I think my repentant nature is a significant part of what made me comfortable with converting to Catholicism years ago. It felt right.

When I was younger, it showed up as being overly apologetic - I'd apologize to the point of begging forgiveness for existing. Then there was years of therapy, bad marriage, more therapy, learning better boundaries... accepting my kinks. Interestingly enough, the better I got at setting boundaries, the more okay I became with myself, the more comfortable I became with my masochism, my need for penance - and the less I apologized. Now I sincerely apologize if I feel I've fucked up (particularly if I've been rude - for some reason that still kills me), but the little stuff (and sometimes big) gets worked off through my kinks.

Clarity - I openly acknowledge that I'm wound pretty damn tight 95% of the time. (Hooray for Ice Princess-ness!) When things get difficult/stressful/scary, I wind tighter - hard to do, but somehow I manage to do it. A good, hard, well placed sadistic slap (mental, physical or emotional) by the right person and I'm back on even ground, ready to face whatever needs facing. I can breathe again; I see things more clearly; I dig in and do what needs to be done. I've been known to dig my fingernails into my palms in an effort to center myself, but it's never quite as effective...

Strength - For as prissy girly-girl as I am, I know deep down inside I'm incredibly strong... even when I'm not. It's like there's some "dammit I can do this" switch in my head, but it isn't a competition kind of switch - more like a "doing this because it's necessary [see penance] and right [see clarity] and I'm strong enough" sort of switch. The closest thing I can relate it to is birth - 4 of my 5 births were drug free/midwife attended. I hated the pain, I wanted it to end, but at the same time I was on top of it; I was tuned in. I knew how to ride it [the pain]; how to breathe through it... how to experience it and appreciate it's short life. Oddly, I still do that when I'm suffering for someone - tune in and ride it (for the most part). I go back to old breathing techniques and things to sit inside the pain instead of fight it.

Service - This one is probably the simplest. If someone I care for and/or respect feels a need, a desire to hurt me, I feel an equal and opposite desire to suffer for their pleasure. Saying no is greater torture.

I'll keep thinking on it (like I ever stop thinking) and add more as the thread moves along.


(*IMO mind fucks and humiliation have a place in masochism too, I'm not sure how to tackle those subjects at the moment...)

 

[BeachGurl2]

Sigh... with friends like these, yadayadayada.

The masochism thing has been an interesting journey; such a multifaceted and complex issue. When I "found" BDSM, I swore up and down I might be submissive, but I wasn't one of those sorts of people - the ones who want humiliation and and pain and bad things... and now several years later, I find myself having conversations with people at work saying I'm not really that interested in dating at the moment [because what's the point if it means intimacy without pain mindfucks and humiliation*?] I don't really say that out loud, of course, but it's what I'm thinking.

There are several different issues at work in my masochism (speaking in terms of the physical aspect at the moment) - penance, clarity, strength, service. Probably a few more, but those are the biggies.

Penance - Lord bless me but I'm hard on myself. I've always been hard on myself, even in childhood. And my penitent streak has always been there from my earliest memory. I think my repentant nature is a significant part of what made me comfortable with converting to Catholicism years ago. It felt right.

When I was younger, it showed up as being overly apologetic - I'd apologize to the point of begging forgiveness for existing. Then there was years of therapy, bad marriage, more therapy, learning better boundaries... accepting my kinks. Interestingly enough, the better I got at setting boundaries, the more okay I became with myself, the more comfortable I became with my masochism, my need for penance - and the less I apologized. Now I sincerely apologize if I feel I've fucked up (particularly if I've been rude - for some reason that still kills me), but the little stuff (and sometimes big) gets worked off through my kinks.

Clarity - I openly acknowledge that I'm wound pretty damn tight 95% of the time. (Hooray for Ice Princess-ness!) When things get difficult/stressful/scary, I wind tighter - hard to do, but somehow I manage to do it. A good, hard, well placed sadistic slap (mental, physical or emotional) by the right person and I'm back on even ground, ready to face whatever needs facing. I can breathe again; I see things more clearly; I dig in and do what needs to be done. I've been known to dig my fingernails into my palms in an effort to center myself, but it's never quite as effective...
Strength - For as prissy girly-girl as I am, I know deep down inside I'm incredibly strong... even when I'm not. It's like there's some "dammit I can do this" switch in my head, but it isn't a competition kind of switch - more like a "doing this because it's necessary [see penance] and right [see clarity] and I'm strong enough" sort of switch. The closest thing I can relate it to is birth - 4 of my 5 births were drug free/midwife attended. I hated the pain, I wanted it to end, but at the same time I was on top of it; I was tuned in. I knew how to ride it [the pain]; how to breathe through it... how to experience it and appreciate it's short life. Oddly, I still do that when I'm suffering for someone - tune in and ride it (for the most part). I go back to old breathing techniques and things to sit inside the pain instead of fight it.

Service - This one is probably the simplest. If someone I care for and/or respect feels a need, a desire to hurt me, I feel an equal and opposite desire to suffer for their pleasure. Saying no is greater torture.
I'll keep thinking on it (like I ever stop thinking) and add more as the thread moves along.


(*IMO mind fucks and humiliation have a place in masochism too, I'm not sure how to tackle those subjects at the moment...)

Wow, Cutie. I could have written something very similar to this post. I've bolded the sections that truly apply to me almost exactly as written.

In addition to all of those, for me this brings a sort of balance inside me. A calm sort of peaceful feeling. That all is right in my world now. And maybe that has to do with all of the above. I don't know how many masochists have this happen to them, but I actually become much calmer, my heart rate drops, my breathing and pulse slow, when I'm taking pain. Yes, it is sexually arousing. But at the same time, it is incredibly calming and relaxing, too. Something inside just clicks into place, that balance. And I'm centered.

 

[rida]

I'm not a painslut as pain does not turn me on and I do not enjoy it.

But if masochism is meant as to be willing to suffer for someone else pleasure, than I can only say that I am.

When I started down this journey few years back, anything that had to do with pain was on my hard limit list. I could not even imagine wanting to try any of it. *chuckle*. And here I am now, seeing a Sadist whose pleasure comes from dishing out pain and from my suffering.

My own masochism is still something that puzzles me.
I do not feel the need for penance. I do not feel that suffering and pain will cleanse me from my sins. I actually do not feel as if there is anything really that I need to atone for. So why did I find myself a Sadist? I wanted to explore my own limits, push my own boundaries, experience what does it mean to let the pain wash over, a personal growth kind of thing.

Reality thou is shaping out differently, of course, and what keeps me going back for more is the desire to please him, the satisfaction I feel when I feel his own satisfaction. And I am now having episodes when I crave it.

So I am now wondering if being a pain slut is actually something that can be learned as far as the masochistic nature is present.

Thank you for the interesting thread. I'll be checking in often. (Still wrapping my mind around humiliation)

 

[CutieMouse]

So I am now wondering if being a pain slut is actually something that can be learned as far as the masochistic nature is present.

Mostly these days I find myself stuck in this lovely little love/lust/hate loop... things I know I want and need, as much as I hate; things that make me grin wickedly right up to the point of tears.

In that sense, I'd say that if the proper sorts of masochistic mental gymnastics are present, it is possible to learn to be a pain slut... I would imagine it's rather easy to get hooked on the endorphin rush (spiked liberally with sexual arousal), leading one down the pain slut path.

 

[rida]

Mostly these days I find myself stuck in this lovely little love/lust/hate loop... things I know I want and need, as much as I hate; things that make me grin wickedly right up to the point of tears.

In that sense, I'd say that if the proper sorts of masochistic mental gymnastics are present, it is possible to learn to be a pain slut... I would imagine it's rather easy to get hooked on the endorphin rush (spiked liberally with sexual arousal), leading one down the pain slut path.

Yes, the re-wiring of the pain response in connection with a pleasant stimuli.
That is the way I've learned to enjoy nipples pain.

What is blowing my mind at the moment thou is that I got to the craving of the experience (I'm still wary of calling it craving for the pain), without much if any sexual pleasure (for me) thrown in the middle. Just from the sheer satisfaction to have been able to provide something that the other person wants and needs. An EGO trip perhaps?

 

[myinnerslut]

i discover my masochist side years before i truly came to understand my sexual side. as a young child, i sought out pain, without it entering my mind to seek out sexual pleasure. i guess you could say i am more acquainted with the masochist parts of me, having known them longer.

a few years ago, i probably would have told you i was less of a masochist then i actually am. a few years ago i was repressing myself in order to emotionally deal with the abusive ex. now, my masochism is just a another part of me. its one more puzzle piece that makes up my identity.

at times, such as while stuck in what i refer to as "limbo" aka long distance relationships, its hard to actively enjoy pain. im certainly not allowed to hurt myself without permission, and due to the limits of my environment and our situation, engaging in pain play can become more challenging. there are a few good ways we have found to produce pain, for example zippers, but restrictions and real life make it difficult.

even when Master comes up for a visit, there are limits to what we can do. there is no room for his whip, nor much swinging room at all for the toys he can bring. i cant scream loudly because im in a dorm. i have to be functional the next day because i have to go to class. and of course life gets in the way. you cant exactly beat somebody recovering from surgery.

the most balanced out my masochism has ever been was when i visited Master and viv for three weeks. being in a situation where i was receiving pain and pleasure both very consistently really allowed me to flourish. i opened up and tried new things, discovered new types of pain, and cant think of any i didnt like (though at the time, im pretty sure i hated his whip with a passion. of course, its now become one of the things i crave).

i can't really tell you how deep my masochist streak runs. the best answer i can gives is, it various. when im PMSing, my tolerance and desire for pain skyrockets. when im stressed out it drops down a bit. and, as has been proven several times, Master seems to understand my pain tolerance and desires better then i do. hes pushed me past levels of pain that made me wish i still had a safeword, and i have emerged on the other side of it happy that he took me there and knowing i would not have been able to reach it on my own. there was one notable occasion where all i wanted was "more more,more" (PMSing of course) and he choose to stop for my safety, even though i was still begging for more. once again, afterwards i looked back on it and he was absolutely right to have stopped.

so i guess despite the fact that ive known i was a masochist for a long time, my masochism can be very strong, can be in hiding, or anywhere in between. and i dont always know where i want to stop. but its still an undeniable part of me.

 

[ultramarineblue]

Lots of interesting things to think about in this thread. I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on this. I wonder if masochist needs evolve more or perhaps more of what has always been within is revealed.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i luv that moment when i just give up and feel the pain. The moment i stop trying to "take it", i decide to just surrender and let whatever happens happen. Until that moment there are all the thoughts "i can't breath, what if i suffocate?", "does he know i can't breathe?", "what if there are marks?", "what if i sustain serious injury?", "does he know how much he is hurting me?"... All those crazy thoughts racing through my mind until i just........STOP.... and He is in complete control and i just no longer care. It still hurts like hell but instead of tensing... my muscles relax and i just feel the pain. i cry, scream, dissolve. i forget then. i know it happens but its very hard for me to remember what comes after when its all done. The final surrender is so in the moment i am unable to recall it later but i do love waking up on the other side protected, cherished and owned.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I've never really thought about what I am.

I know that the right pain makes me wet, makes me ache, heightens every other sensation to unimaginable pleasure.

I also know that a good spanking is a wonderful cathartic release.

It is pretty much all about me though. As much as I enjoy knowing that the person hurting me is enjoying it as well, I can't suffer it simply because that's what they want. I need to want it to.

That being said, anyone who knows me well enough can usually get me to the point where I'm begging for it, no matter what mood I was in beforehand.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Pain is a big part of how I'm wired sexually. I don't always enjoy it but I can no longer imagine a sexlife without it. I have a big need for humiliation too and the two are often linked for me.

I don't really go far on the 'good girl/bad girl' concept because it always feels a bit orchestrated and false to me. I almost always serve to the best of my ability and to be called a 'bad girl' simply because he wants an excuse to paddle my ass devalues that a little. I like knowing that he doesn't need a reason, that the fact he wants to see me squirm and cry is reason enough.

Usually, I start off tense because I know what's coming and after a while, I'll reach a point where I can let go and take it. It's a very calming, almost meditative state that I find intensely liberating. Like others have said, it's cathartic - like a good therapy session or sitting and crying for half an hour or screaming at the top of my lungs at the universe in general. Afterwards I always feel euphoric and superlatively content. Something about pain triggers my happy hormones, even if there's no sexual release at the time.

Having said all that, if Master is seriously punishing me for a genuine transgression, all bets are off. My tolerance plummets and my happy hormones go into hiding. I do not enjoy the pain at all and Master is very good at causing me pain that he knows I can't find pleasurable - like stingyer implements used without any kind of rhythm or symmetry on my body. Usually he'll make sure he covers a wide area fairly evenly but punishments can involve a very small area or two that he whips the shit out of.

I do need a certain amount of physical dominance. I need to know first hand the power and strength he has and to be aware of how badly he could hurt me if he chose to. I also need the humiliation, to be reminded of the place I chose with him and that my entire life is in his hands. I once pouted and complained that I was beginning to feel we were getting too vanilla and he dragged me through to the bathroom and took a wooden spoon to me while ordering me to strip. He dumped me in the bath and pissed all over me, still swatting me with the spoon (which later went in the bin) and asking me just who the fuck I thought I was. It reminded me that with us, M/s is implicit in everything we do, it doesn't require constant re-affirmation any more and I should have remembered that. I did feel manipulative and sammy at the time but it taught me a lesson and I loved that he just instantly put me in my place.

Anyway, I can see I'm starting to ramble so I'll draw a line under my thoughts here and maybe add more further down the thread.

 

[intothewoods]

Love all the answers so far. Cutie, I relate to everything you've written, except I will add that I do get competitive about what I can take. That's not a maso thing. I'm just competitive about everything. It's slightly bonkers. Months ago I was kind of branded a brat in my local community. It was a joke, but it still irked me a little. I went nuts playing with a few people and not saying a word just to shock them and prove I can be a nice little bottom too. I'm weird.

Also, the service part resonates the strongest for me, surprisingly enough. I have always shrugged my shoulders at service and said it's not for me. I'm not going to get any satisfaction from scrubbing the floors. However, I hate to say no. I hate to fail. I like to please. Suffering because it makes someone happy helps me get into the mindset of bracing through the pain. It quiets my mind pretty quickly.

Velvet - I agree with you about the cliche of the good girl/bad girl thing. I kind of use it as shorthand, but suffice it to say I don't get off on, have you been a bad wittle girl then bend over!


On another point...something I'll admit. It is easier, in a way, to let go at a play party with someone I don't know as well as my PYL. I almost overthink it with Mister Man. We've got daily life all around us. Stuff to do downstairs. Distractions. I feel badly about this, though I admit the parties are a convenient outlet.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Lots of interesting things to think about in this thread. I'm still trying to figure out where I stand on this. I wonder if masochist needs evolve more or perhaps more of what has always been within is revealed.

I think it depends on the person. For some it has been there and acknowledged always, for others it has been there and repressed or subconscious, and for some it was never there until introduced as an idea and/or desire of another. Some also come to it when other areas begin to lose their effect and they feel a craving for something more.

Catalina

 

[myinnerslut]

I think it depends on the person. For some it has been there and acknowledged always, for others it has been there and repressed or subconscious, and for some it was never there until introduced as an idea and/or desire of another. Some also come to it when other areas begin to lose their effect and they feel a craving for something more.

Catalina

for me, i feel like from the point i discovered it it has been with me. sometimes its more of a craving and a need, and other times its in the background a bit more, but i dont think it has ever (an probably wont ever) just fade away.

somebody brought up a good poitn earlier about definitions, and the different ways we classify our feelings on the masochist subject. how do you define masochist, and how do you define painslut? whats the (your) difference?

 

[catalina_francisco]

for me, i feel like from the point i discovered it it has been with me. sometimes its more of a craving and a need, and other times its in the background a bit more, but i dont think it has ever (an probably wont ever) just fade away.

somebody brought up a good poitn earlier about definitions, and the different ways we classify our feelings on the masochist subject. how do you define masochist, and how do you define painslut? whats the (your) difference?

Definitions are subjective as you say, but mine go pretty much along the same lines as BiBunny. The one thing I have learned is the delivery of pain is never predictable in how it will affect me, in what way, or how it will feel, though if I have not had any for a long time, it hurts much more and yet the very first time I received pain, it was not very painful for me and yet left me with bruises and welts all over for 2 weeks and the PYL surprised with how much I could take. Go figure. It has been an interesting journey of discovery which continues to give out surprises and at times complications, but is by no means one I would have had any other way.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Dreaded double post syndrome!!
Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

To add to what I said earlier, my masochism is probably more emotional than physical, but the two run a very close race. I will suffer in any shape, form, or fashion for love. I do things that others think are stupid for a tiny shred of attention from someone I love. I'll jump through whatever hoops and walk through whatever fires necessary.

In a twisted way, I love the way it makes me feel. More beautiful, more worthy of that affection. If someone just gives me something, I don't appreciate it that much, I guess. Having to suffer for it makes it all the more precious to me.

Now I'm unsure whether to go on or not.

 

[CutieMouse]

Now I'm unsure whether to go on or not.

Feels a bit like you're handing out a cheat sheet to the secret decoder ring, eh?

 

[BiBunny]

Feels a bit like you're handing out a cheat sheet to the secret decoder ring, eh?

Yep, pretty much.

 

[CutieMouse]

Yep, pretty much.

I know the feeling.

 

[intothewoods]

Definitions are subjective as you say, but mine go pretty much along the same lines as BiBunny. The one thing I have learned is the delivery of pain is never predictable in how it will affect me, in what way, or how it will feel, though if I have not had any for a long time, it hurts much more and yet the very first time I received pain, it was not very painful for me and yet left me with bruises and welts all over for 2 weeks and the PYL surprised with how much I could take. Go figure. It has been an interesting journey of discovery which continues to give out surprises and at times complications, but is by no means one I would have had any other way.

Catalina

So far pain hasn't been predictable for me either, and I have to admit I'm impatient about it sometimes. There are times I'm just yelping and ouching all over the place, when I wish so much I could be stoic and taking it obediently.