Desperately seeking Ms. Goodeditor

[ynotmore]

I have recently completed my first effort at writing. It's the story of a high school principal's wife relationships with some students. I've tried to focus on the mental interrelationships of the parties involved. As a result, there is much cross conversation.

The story has been rejected for reasons uncertain to me. My request is to find an editor that can offer me the wisdom that I seem to lack in completing my story. So, if you are willing to help, you will have a friend for life.

 

[CopyCarver]

I have recently completed my first effort at writing. It's the story of a high school principal's wife relationships with some students. I've tried to focus on the mental interrelationships of the parties involved. As a result, there is much cross conversation.

The story has been rejected for reasons uncertain to me. My request is to find an editor that can offer me the wisdom that I seem to lack in completing my story. So, if you are willing to help, you will have a friend for life.

Good editor is an oxymoron--we're all mean, rotten, and surly

Seriously, my instincts are telling me that your story may have been rejected because of Lit's chiseled-in-stone policy of no sex by anyone under the age of 18. If you didn't specifically state that the students are 18, the gatekeepers may have erred on the side of caution and/or self-preservation.

 

[sethp]

I have recently completed my first effort at writing. It's the story of a high school principal's wife relationships with some students. I've tried to focus on the mental interrelationships of the parties involved. As a result, there is much cross conversation.

The story has been rejected for reasons uncertain to me. My request is to find an editor that can offer me the wisdom that I seem to lack in completing my story. So, if you are willing to help, you will have a friend for life.

due to the age of the characters..duh.

Change all ages and story so that there is no doubt to the reader that all characters are at least 18.. If you do that.. I will hook you up with the best editor on lit.

 

[ynotmore]

Youth will not be served

Good editor is an oxymoron--we're all mean, rotten, and surly

Seriously, my instincts are telling me that your story may have been rejected because of Lit's chiseled-in-stone policy of no sex by anyone under the age of 18. If you didn't specifically state that the students are 18, the gatekeepers may have erred on the side of caution and/or self-preservation.

That must be the problem. While all the students are seniors in high school and close to graduation, I never specified their birthdates. Thanks for the heads up. Let me address that issue and then see if it passes.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

What's Worked for Me

I've been (and continue to) write a middle-earth story, timeles sort of, and have done well with equating age with the passing of "seasons", which has worked. Lacking thAT, ADVERTISE AN AGE BEYOND 18, OR i HAVE USED, "MARRYING AGE"

dAMN CAPS!

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... dAMN CAPS!

It's just one of the buttons marked

Caps
Lock​

which you pressed inadvertantly.

Either that or you have another wrecked keyboard <ducks to avoid missiles>.

 

[ynotmore]

It's the conversation

due to the age of the characters..duh.

Change all ages and story so that there is no doubt to the reader that all characters are at least 18.. If you do that.. I will hook you up with the best editor on lit.

The rejection is based upon punctuation for dialogs. I've looked at it a number of times and cannot see what the problem is. All punctuation is within quotes and each conversation is begun on a new paragraph.

If you can hook me up with an editor who can see what I'm obviously missing, I'd be very grateful.

 

[Guest]

The rejection is based upon punctuation for dialogs. I've looked at it a number of times and cannot see what the problem is. All punctuation is within quotes and each conversation is begun on a new paragraph.

If you can hook me up with an editor who can see what I'm obviously missing, I'd be very grateful.

Failing that, post a longer, representative sample of dialogue here. Sharp eyes will spot the problem(s), I'm sure.

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[ynotmore]

GnomeDePlume and WhiteWave49....Here is a sampling of the dialog that seems to be unacceptable. I await any and all suggestions and criticism.

The young men admitted during the end of the dinner that they thought she was very hot and all the guys loved looking at her, especially her fantastic legs. Steven admitted that’s why they wanted her to wear the dress she had on. Connie blushed at the attempted seduction of the group but, inside, she was giddy with happiness. As the guys paid the check, they dropped a bomb on her. Drake’s family had a lake house outside Austin. They invited her to spend a weekend with them. Of course she said that wasn’t possible.
“Anthony wouldn’t ever allow me to go away for the weekend with three male students. It’s impossible.”
Brad spoke up. “He wouldn’t have to know. We sure wouldn’t tell him.” While he was speaking Connie noticed that Brad had placed his hand on her leg and was actually stroking her thigh. She reached down and took his wrist and lifted it off her leg and placed it on his lap. While doing so, she happened to brush against what was quite obviously a very hard prick.
“I’ve got to go guys. It’s been wonderful but it’s time for the party to end.” Connie began to get up from the booth.
Just as she was getting ready to leave, Drake spoke up. “Mrs. Farrell, please think about it. I promise you’ll be safe and we all love having you around. You’ll have three men waiting on your hand and foot. Just think about it, OK?”
“There’s nothing to think about, Drake, it’s impossible.” Connie did think to herself, “Now if only Drake were there, I might consider it.” No, girl, stop thinking that. But when I look at him, I have all sorts of funny feelings inside me.
The boys paid the check and they all escorted Connie back to her car which was parked in the mall garage. To fend off the others, Connie slipped her arm underneath Drake’s arm as they took the stairs up to the next level. When they got to her car, Brad spoke up. “Connie, if you won’t allow us to treat you to that weekend, at least you owe us a goodnight kiss.”
“What do you mean owe you?” In truth, Connie knew the rules of the game in high school. After a date, if the guy spends big on you, you at least give him a little reward, depending on how long you’d been going out with him.
Drake interrupted her thoughts. “He didn’t mean owe because we all know you don’t owe us anything. It’s just that this will probably be the last time we get to be with you before we’re off to college. We’d really love to just feel what it’s like to kiss you. There can’t be any harm in that, can there”.
“Well no,” said Connie, “but it’s really not appropriate, you know”.
“Please, Mrs. Farrell” pleaded Drake.


Thanks to all that respond.

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[WhiteWave48]

why not any more

*****

 

[Rob_mDear]

There is a problem with the following line that may not be obvious. I don't know if the lit editors are being this picky, but:

“There’s nothing to think about, Drake, it’s impossible.” Connie did think to herself, “Now if only Drake were there, I might consider it.” No, girl, stop thinking that. But when I look at him, I have all sorts of funny feelings inside me.

Here, you've quoted some, but not all of Connie's thoughts. Generally, as a matter of style, I don't like to quote thoughts at all, I write them in the third person. To recast this both ways (corrected quotes, and third person narrative)...

Corrected, first person dialoge:

“There’s nothing to think about, Drake, it’s impossible.”

Connie did think to herself, “Now if only Drake were there, I might consider it. No, girl, stop thinking that. But when I look at him, I have all sorts of funny feelings inside me."

Third person narrative:

“There’s nothing to think about, Drake, it’s impossible.” Connie did think to herself, now if only Drake were there, she might consider it. No, girl, stop thinking that. But when she looked at him, she thought, she had all sorts of funny feelings inside her.

I personally prefer the third person narrative form. It's much less jarring to the reader, if more difficult to craft.

This last can be re-written a number of ways, depending on the effect you are trying for. I might, for instance, make it less "familiar" by taking out the "no, girl, stop thinking that" part. Also, note that "but when she looks at him..." is awkward. It's in the present tense, because it's a thought, but it can confuse the reader because the story is more properly in past tense. It had to be cast back into the past tense, and for clarity, another "she thought" was needed.

Of course, you could do this a number of other ways. Some people use italics for thoughts, and I do on very rare, special occasions, but personally I find them clumsy, and they are more difficult for the literotica site people to cast into web pages.

Again, I don't know if the literotica editors are being that picky, but they could be.

Does this help any?

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

I posted these comments in here because I didn't hear from you after the first edit via PM. I presume you want feedback, but perhaps it's a case of 'grabbit and run'. It's nice for your those who offer help to see how you're doing. We like to know.

Yes - I had a go at editing the full story and sent it back (twice) but not a word to say it had been received.

 

[WhiteWave48]

Talking to one's self

*****

 

[meg1]

Did someone back there say we are mean, rotten, and surly? Now Rob_mDear has generously analyzed the sample, with no response.

Among Rob's many useful suggestions, what he says about thoughts and italics is a help to me, so maybe I'll try to discuss that and learn something new.

Here's my question: when writing direct thoughts in fiction, are italics standard US usage or are there other options? (Apologies for losing track of this in another thread.)

not in this thread, i don't think they did

I like italics for long internal thoughts, i edit for people that use quotations, both single and double. The only reason I don't like those is because when I'm reading it makes me think of speaking and trips me up. Anything that makes me have to go back and reread because I lost it the first time turns me off.

I'd have to go back and look in books, but I seem to recall (off the top of my head, which in no way should be thought of as reliable) that thoughts are written normally w/ a "she thought" stuck in.

(why apologize when you've asked 2 or 3 times for the OP to come back and acknowledge everyone's help? there are people here practically begging for help who come back daily to check, you all spent hours collectively, looking over his pieces and he dropped you.)

 

[sethp]

Listen to Meg! She's one of the very best Editors on Lit. She's the shizzle dizzle!

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[meg1]

As an Aussie, I'm accustomed to the choice between double quotations or none at all - although I have seen the singles used too. Since quite a few stories I edit use italics, I'm curious about the official view in the US. I've heard that some publishers of popular fiction use them as part of their in-house style - in fact they instruct their writers to use them.

Long internal thoughts go well in italics. They look good and they seem part of the format of the entire work. For me, shorter chunks seem to disrupt the action.

(The apology was for failing to keep tabs on this topic in another forum. It was so recent it seems dumb to be asking about it again. No apologies offered for the other matter.)

I know this is long, but she explains it well. I used italics a lot for my first submission and have gradually discontinued them until I am now down to none. I also do not use any kind of quotation marks for thought processes. I do it more like a god (me) explaining what's going on inside everyone's head.

So instead of writing: Susan is taking my job from me she has already taken so much, I will not let her get away with this, Judy thought. (or any variation w/ double/single quotes)

I write: Judy could not believe the audacity of Susan. Susan had already taken her boyfriend, junior league membership and position on the city council, Judy was determined to give Susan nothing else.

corny, I know....i can't think of a better example, maybe when i do i'll edit

You can read 3 different manuals and get 3 different opinions. I'm not going to tell you it HAS to be this way. I always compromise with my writers to allow them some license in how they want to write their story (I say English is an art, not a science...there is no formula)

http://sharingwithwriters.blogspot.com/2008/02/more-on-italics-and-internal-thought.html

More on Italics and Internal Thought
I'm adding some more of my answers to writers on the thread that started on italics. I knew I'd stir up a hornet's nest! Scroll down to see the original post. (-:
Here it is:

Here's the thing, fiction writers. We all want to become the best writers -- and the best readers for that matter -- that we can be. If you were paying $400 to $800 for a course from one of the best writing schools (including UCLA's) you would get this info in a class. I know. I took those courses . I probably spent a cool $3,000 taking those courses. And now I'm teaching there.

These fine schools of writing are trying to make writers reach for the best they can be.

I haven't seen Stephen King use italics for internal thought. Or, Grisham. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Using italics for internal thought is done more frequently among romance writers, often unnecessarily (i. e. without a good reason).

What's happened here (with the proliferation of the use of italics) is that many writers are making it easy on themselves and training us to expect it to be made easy on us. They use them. Then someone who admires them sees them in that book and so he or she uses them, too. It's like gossip. It's fun and easy but it doesn't make using them right.

Using punctuation that isn't essential (or punctuation that is different from what tradition has taught--indeed trained--us to expect) can be distracting. (There are no italics for internal thought in the classics you'll note.)

The secret is to think, "I'm already in this person's head. My reader knows it. I know it. So why am I pretending like we both don't know it." That's why we also have to be very careful with our Point of View as well. No one would think of suggesting that we shouldn't be careful with that. Right? We work at great transitions so we know exactly who is doing the observing and all of that. (-: So why would we. as writers, usurp what POV is supposed to do with something as obvious and intrusive as italics.

Now, I know most of you don't think that using italics to indicate internal thought is intrusive. But, the Frugal Editor is written so that writers (those who want to) can eventually sell their work to the nation's best agents and so those agents can sell their clients' work to the nation's best publishers.

Those who want to continue to have the control over their work (one of which might be to continue to use italics for internal thought without an exceptionally good reason for doing so) will continue to do so, I guess. But if you are interested in going in a different direction, please don't take this guideline on italics lightly.

If you use italics for internal though in the first chapter and that chapter isn't so absolute above-board great that an agent will figure she can sell your work IN SPITE of them (or talk you out of it!), you will be doing yourself a disservice.

Of course, it's up to each of you to decide. Do try to judge, though, based on what's best for your writing career, rather than that you already have a book out that uses them. That would be investing in the past, rather than the future. And when you run across a book that uses them -- a very good book like LIsa See's Peony in Love published by Random House (and she uses them very sparingly!), try to determine why she broke the guideline.

Now, that's an exercise in better writing.

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[meg1]

Oh, good, I hope it really does help.

I know it's frustrating because on so many rules are argued over and to make it worse they seem to change. I remember when I was in school (grade school ) the rule for commas was you put a comma after every word in a list, including in between the next to the last word and 'and' (she bought milk, eggs, bread, and orange juice). Then by the time I was teaching you didn't put it before the 'and' because it was redundant .

Maybe you should start a debate thread on the different grammatical rules we seem to argue over the most.

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... the rule for commas was you put a comma after every word in a list, including in between the next to the last word and 'and' (she bought milk, eggs, bread, and orange juice). Then by the time I was teaching you didn't put it before the 'and' because it was redundant ...

It isn't always redundant. For example:

On the tea table there were a pot of jam, peaches and cream, and bread and butter.

It is known as the Oxford comma or the serial comma, and in the US as the Harvard comma. See the last question on http://www.wordquery.com/wordqueries.asp?id=4 for an exposition on the topic.

 

[Rob_mDear]

Thoughts

My apologies, I lost track of this thread for a while there, so a lot has gone on.

Some quick notes:

One non-writing reason to avoid italics for thoughts on Literotica is just ease of posting, and easing the workload on "the publishers." Italics requires that the story be submitted as an RTF, and formatted into HTML by hand, versus submitting it as plain text.

I have seen many print novels where italics are used for the thoughts of a character, usually non-human, that never gets to actively participate in a story with dialogue. For instance, in one novel there was a super-computer that was running the world, and a few chapters opened with its mysterious thoughts in italics.

I do have one story where I did use italics together with the third person point of view. Basically, it was a slightly schizophrenic frame of mind for the character, and the italics were used to represent the competing thoughts... almost like her conscience.

She wanted to do it. She knew she did.

Don't do it.

The thought tore at her. She knew what she wanted.

It's wrong.

She had to do it. She knew she had to.​

With that said, aside from these exceptions, I would always, always use third person myself.

But the key point, I think, already mentioned, is that for it to work you need as a writer to maintain a clear point of view for the reader. That's just good writing anyway, but an interesting barometer is that if it's at all hard to write a character's thoughts into a piece in the third person... maybe your point of view is already weak.