Jumping into the fire ... Should the entire Non-Con category be eliminated?

[Off_base]

My mom did say it was the best policy

I'm more of a two women, friends to lovers kind of pervert.

 

[cw5523729]

I'm more of a two women, friends to lovers kind of pervert.

Ah, a man of simple tastes.

 

[Off_base]

Ah, a man of simple tastes.

Or woman, as in my case.

 

[cw5523729]

Or woman, as in my case.

Whoops

 

[Off_base]

Whoops

It's ok, not like I have a sign

 

[Katie_Mae]

And if someone is reading N/C stories of rape, it's not the story which will make them do it. They've had no other personal interactions and role models to show them why they shouldn't! Even without reading those stories, they'll still have the voice in their head saying: "Just do it!"

Agree, but I want to extrapolate on your comments, and a content warning for real-world rape. And a content warning for rambling off topic and moving to address other stuff not related to your comment because it sounds like I'm not agreeing with you when I am.

Non-con is, from my perspective, a kink I share with mostly women. And we're imagining ourselves as the "victim" not rapist. This is based on my experience reading/writing, interacting with other readers and writers off lit and in places where people's real-world persons and genders become known.
Us writers have found that when posted to sites that have statistics on this data, women make up an overwhelming majority of our readers. One could argue the accuracy of such data, but is aligns with my real-world experience.

So what happens when people, who don't read non-con, come on here and say "non-con fics cause rape" what I hear is "women reading questionable smut causes rape."

I didn't begin reading/writing non-con erotica until after I'd been raped.
I don't believe me reading/writing non-con fiction caused my rape.

What caused my rape? I was raped because a rapist raped me.

Yet I'm somehow expected to believe that I was raped because after I was raped, I once read a story where a magical elf kidnapped a human woman to be his bride and they fell in love and lived happily ever after, that story is somehow responsible for my rape?

Seriously? Why is society obsessed with blaming rape on rape victims? We were wearing the wrong thing, we were in the wrong place, we were hanging around the wrong people and now we were reading the wrong smut.

My rapist was/is a bad person. He told me he was, so he knew it. Can't we just blame him for what happened? Why does a rapist need a scapegoat, and why must the scapegoat be women's fiction?

_______

But even if I'm a big fat liar, and I'm the only woman in the world that writes/reads this stuff, then it's still not responsible for my rape.

And even if I'm wrong about that, and my rapist isn't at fault for my rape, then posting in this thread blaming the smut I read for my rape does nothing positive and it won't get non-con remove from lit. (So thank you for supporting women like me, and not blaming rape on smut and apologies for the rant. )

What will get non-con removed from lit? pressure from real-world laws and credit card companies. I hope it doesn't, but honestly, the way things are going in the world, it's entirely possible.

____

No I doubt anybody that read that story found it 'Glorifying' the abuse...
I have suggested that abuse shouldn't be depicted in stories... It happens, it's part of life...

My line in the sand is when the abuse is depicted in a sexually gratuitous manner.

Oh, and thanks for the in depth review. You probably spent more time on it than I did...

Cagivagurl

I read your story. I enjoyed it.
You're saying it's nothing like the stories in r/nc, but you've also said you've never read anything in that category, so how would you know?

I almost exclusively read r/nc. It's a very broad category. There's all sorts in there. Ultimately, a lot of what I read is about female empowerment or true love.

Your story is not as different to some of the material in r/NC as you might think. Perhaps some of what you're fighting against is women like you, writing stories like yours.

There's a r/nc story I love by an off-lit friend, where a man is forced to kidnap a woman to protect her. He is gentle and kind, and wants to help her. Ultimately, they both end up saving each other. They fall in love and get married, and they don't have any sex until after they married.

And yes, there's all sorts of material in r/nc. And yes, there are stories which do lean strongly on the non-con-kink. And no, not all of them actually have rape, because they feature only consensual sex. Or no sex. For me, a non-con story doesn't need to feature any non-consensual sex for me to find it arousing, because, for me, my rape kink isn't actually about the rape part. And I understand you just don't get that and probably never will.

And yes, some of them do contain rape. There's a lot in there you'd find disgusting and distasteful. There's a lot I find disgusting and distasteful.

And you know what? That's okay.

It's okay not to enjoy something. Your kink is not my kink, and that's okay. There's a lot of material on here I find disgusting and disgraceful, but I support the right of people to write and read that. I just don't read it. Rape is disgusting and vile and worth fighting against. But what's happening here isn't rape, it's fiction that contains a kink you don't get.

The questions was asked, should the non-con category be removed, and all stories containing non-con elements (like yours) removed? The answer is no. Because the content is legal and aligns with Lit's mission statement.

Literotica is (meant to be) a sex-positive open-minded space. They support free speech. They support the right of women like me to have and share my sexual fantasies, even if others find them distasteful. They support non-con fiction. By writing here, you are donating your work to help support the website to provide a safe space for women like me with a rape-kink.

If you are really so against it, why are you writing here, supporting it? I don't mean this in an unkind way, but maybe it isn't that non-con isn't right for Lit, but that it's Lit isn't right for you?

The Terms of Service state "You will exit from this site immediately if you are in any way offended by the sexual nature or content of any material." There are many erotic websites out there that don't allow things like non-con. Perhaps you might be happier supporting one of those? again, I don't mean this in a mean way. I'm not saying you SHOULD go, just that if you really don't want to support the right for non-con authors and readers like me, then supporting Lit doesn't align with that, and it sounds like that could be quite uncomfortable for you. I've left websites that support content I don't agree with allowing, and I'm happier for having left them as they made me feel very uncomfortable.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Agree, but I want to extrapolate on your comments, and a content warning for real-world rape. And a content warning for rambling off topic and moving to address other stuff not related to your comment because it sounds like I'm not agreeing with you when I am.

Non-con is, from my perspective, a kink I share with mostly women. And we're imagining ourselves as the "victim" not rapist. This is based on my experience reading/writing, interacting with other readers and writers off lit and in places where people's real-world persons and genders become known.
Us writers have found that when posted to sites that have statistics on this data, women make up an overwhelming majority of our readers. One could argue the accuracy of such data, but is aligns with my real-world experience.

So what happens when people, who don't read non-con, come on here and say "non-con fics cause rape" what I hear is "women reading questionable smut causes rape."

I didn't begin reading/writing non-con erotica until after I'd been raped.
I don't believe me reading/writing non-con fiction caused my rape.

What caused my rape? I was raped because a rapist raped me.

Yet I'm somehow expected to believe that I was raped because after I was raped, I once read a story where a magical elf kidnapped a human woman to be his bride and they fell in love and lived happily ever after, that story is somehow responsible for my rape?

Seriously? Why is society obsessed with blaming rape on rape victims? We were wearing the wrong thing, we were in the wrong place, we were hanging around the wrong people and now we were reading the wrong smut.

My rapist was/is a bad person. He told me he was, so he knew it. Can't we just blame him for what happened? Why does a rapist need a scapegoat, and why must the scapegoat be women's fiction?

_______

But even if I'm a big fat liar, and I'm the only woman in the world that writes/reads this stuff, then it's still not responsible for my rape.

And even if I'm wrong about that, and my rapist isn't at fault for my rape, then posting in this thread blaming the smut I read for my rape does nothing positive and it won't get non-con remove from lit. (So thank you for supporting women like me, and not blaming rape on smut and apologies for the rant. )

What will get non-con removed from lit? pressure from real-world laws and credit card companies. I hope it doesn't, but honestly, the way things are going in the world, it's entirely possible.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

I know that rape is not the victim's fault and that it's not about what she wears to "attract" the attacker.

My wife and I go to nude resorts, where I'm surrounded by naked women. Even seeing other single males there, none of us would rape any of them! And let's face it: How more READY for sex could they be, when they're already naked? So, the urge to do so must be in the minds of those who ARE inclined to do so. It's not a matter of if they will, but just waiting for the right circumstances. They are the criminal.

 

[ColtonWrites]

You ban non-con stories because they're "immoral" and the next thing to go will be BDSM. Then gay/queer fiction.

Fictional characters are dolls to play with. I have hurt NOBODY by writing a non-con story about fictional people.
No such thing as thoughtcrimes.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Yes, I think you do have an element of control...

Ultimately no I do not. I can try to steer my art into certain moralistic channels but ultimately if a reader refuses to go down those channels and sees whatever he wants in it, I have no control over that whatsoever. And neither do you. Your moral high ground can't help you here.

Just like I have no control over how you read this post. I know that you will never agree or even listen to what I'm saying since your ears are so stuffed full of righteous indignation. I have no control over that so don't try to fucking blame me.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

... When you remove the ability of women like me to easily find the fantasies which turn us on, you also remove the ability for people who don't want to read those fantasies to adequately filter it out. ... The non-con section that I experience, largely full of women* writing for women...

At least some of this debate (especially in the larger culture) is still about people being uncomfortable with female sexual desire, especially when it's transgressive.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

To misquote the esteemed Dr. Frankenfurter, "A line had to be drawn, and they drew one!"

If I were queen of the world, it would be 16, but I'm not so I'll deal with it as it is. If it WERE 16, then we'd have people complaining that they lost their virginity at 15 and the age of consent in New Mexico is 14 so what's the big deal...

There are other sites where it's 16 or lower. I don't agree with it either, but if I want to go lower than 18 I just put it somewhere else. I'm actually waiting for Lush to get it's shit together, so I can start posting one with a 16 and 18 year old. They were having submission issues the same time we were.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Lush again... Never say never, but never again will I post there.

There are other sites where it's 16 or lower. I don't agree with it either, but if I want to go lower than 18 I just put it somewhere else. I'm actually waiting for Lush to get it's shit together, so I can start posting one with a 16 and 18 year old. They were having submission issues the same time we were.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

And several states have Romeo and Juliet laws where a person over 18 having sex with a minor above the age of consent is OK as long as the age gap is relatively narrow. Usually 3 years or so.
An 18 year old HS Senior dating a 16 year old sophomore shouldn't end up on the sex offender registry for a consensual relationship.

They shouldn't, but it happens, a few years ago a guy got put on the sex offenders list when he was 16—I believe, because he had sex with a girl he dated when he was between 13-15, and she was a year or two younger. Those same laws protect people 18 and under as well, so that situation doesn't happen.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Except, those laws only apply to actual sexual acts.

It's perfectly legal to write about underage sex. It's perfectly legal to have adult actors portray underage characters that have sex. It doesn't matter if it's fiction or documentary, it's all perfectly legal.

It depends how it's depicted in written form, that's where obscenity laws come in, and physical depictions are illegal, which is a wonder how Rule34 sites still exist. Somewhere I have the Lot's Cave handbook saved, and it has a section all about underage.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

They shouldn't, but it happens, a few years ago a guy got put on the sex offenders list when he was 16—I believe, because he had sex with a girl he dated when he was between 13-15, and she was a year or two younger. Those same laws protect people 18 and under as well, so that situation doesn't happen.

Yeah, the whole thing is a mess quite frankly. But if you point out how broken the system is you are "defending peodos and sex offenders".

Like, no...but we should have some common sense about this.

I saw a story awhile back about a woman who ended up on the registry because she hooked up with a guy at a college party who turned out to be a minor. She was a College Senior, so 22, and he was 16 or 17 and never should have been there. Was a big guy and she had no reason not to think he was a college student like everyone else. Now she's a registered sex offender because his parents found out and went nuclear.

A friend of a friend is on the list because he got drunk, was walking home and, like a drunken idiot, stopped to piss on a fence. Cop had been watching him stagger down the street, when he stopped to piss he approached him and said something. Drunken idiot turns around while still peeing.
Now he has "exposed himself in public" and it's a sex crime because the prosecutor is a jackass with nothing better to do.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Uh huh, yep. So you said. A totally platonic kidnapping story on the erotic literature site. Got it.

I actually wrote one of those years ago, and it got rejected.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Yeah, the whole thing is a mess quite frankly. But if you point out how broken the system is you are "defending peodos and sex offenders".

Like, no...but we should have some common sense about this.

I saw a story awhile back about a woman who ended up on the registry because she hooked up with a guy at a college party who turned out to be a minor. She was a College Senior, so 22, and he was 16 or 17 and never should have been there. Was a big guy and she had no reason not to think he was a college student like everyone else. Now she's a registered sex offender because his parents found out and went nuclear.

A friend of a friend is on the list because he got drunk, was walking home and, like a drunken idiot, stopped to piss on a fence. Cop had been watching him stagger down the street, when he stopped to piss he approached him and said something. Drunken idiot turns around while still peeing.
Now he has "exposed himself in public" and it's a sex crime because the prosecutor is a jackass with nothing better to do.

Some folks would think that first story is poetic justice, but I see it as bullshit. On the second one; public urination is how many folks end up on the list. One guy got it, and he was pissing in an alley where the only way he'd get caught is by driving down, which the cop, or somebody else did. Yet... in some places it's quite okay to take a shit, because it's a in distress/emergency type situation. I frankly cannot see the difference in two people about to shit and piss themselves, with nowhere to go, because so many places won't let the public use the bathroom, when evaquating ones own waste should be very important. Folks say food and shelter is a right to any human, I think access to a non residential bathroom should be as well.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Some folks would think that first story is poetic justice, but I see it as bullshit. On the second one; public urination is how many folks end up on the list. One guy got it, and he was pissing in an alley where the only way he'd get caught is by driving down, which the cop, or somebody else did. Yet... in some places it's quite okay to take a shit, because it's a in distress/emergency type situation. I frankly cannot see the difference in two people about to shit and piss themselves, with nowhere to go, because so many places won't let the public use the bathroom, when evaquating ones own waste should be very important. Folks say food and shelter is a right to any human, I think access to a non residential bathroom should be as well.

The bathroom thing is ridiculous. I could understand if it was a crowded place, some kind of sanitary issue, but peeing on a fence at 3am with the only witness the cop. Ludicrous.

Yeah... I saw another case in PA where a 16 year old girl sent her 18 year old BF (both HS students) a naked picture.
Girl's dad found out and went nuclear. Asshole prosecutor went after the boy for possession of child pornography.
If it is, then the sender is guilty of a crime too, right?

It's all just absurd sometimes.

 

[MiaBabe23]

Another example of why non-consent stories should give pause for thought, that perhaps nc should be kept as something only to be explored when it’s safe - there’s a really toxic pos sending unsolicited dms at the moment, seemed like pages of the crap; what little I glanced at showed a putrid, sadistic, small-dicked, small-minded pos wanting to harm women and make them feel bad about themselves
Pos have of course existed and will exist in perpetuity. But I don’t get those kinda messages anywhere else; not extreme like that
I’m sure few, if any on the thread would condone that, but maybe access to an endless supply of non-consent stories gives the impression of legitimacy to disturbed assholes, and comes at the price of women receiving such messages

 

[cw5523729]

Another example of why non-consent stories should give pause for thought, that perhaps nc should be kept as something only to be explored when it’s safe - there’s a really toxic pos sending unsolicited dms at the moment, seemed like pages of the crap; what little I glanced at showed a putrid, sadistic, small-dicked, small-minded pos wanting to harm women and make them feel bad about themselves
Pos have of course existed and will exist in perpetuity. But I don’t get those kinda messages anywhere else; not extreme like that
I’m sure few, if any on the thread would condone that, but maybe access to an endless supply of non-consent stories gives the impression of legitimacy to disturbed assholes, and comes at the price of women receiving such messages

So, your feeling is that if the NC category was eliminated, you wouldn't get DMs from creeps anymore?

 

[MillieDynamite]

That isn't where my creeps find me, still, they do find me.

Another example of why non-consent stories should give pause for thought, that perhaps nc should be kept as something only to be explored when it’s safe - there’s a really toxic pos sending unsolicited dms at the moment, seemed like pages of the crap; what little I glanced at showed a putrid, sadistic, small-dicked, small-minded pos wanting to harm women and make them feel bad about themselves
Pos have of course existed and will exist in perpetuity. But I don’t get those kinda messages anywhere else; not extreme like that
I’m sure few, if any on the thread would condone that, but maybe access to an endless supply of non-consent stories gives the impression of legitimacy to disturbed assholes, and comes at the price of women receiving such messages

So, you're feeling is that if the NC category was eliminated, you wouldn't get DMs from creeps anymore?

 

[cw5523729]

That isn't where my creeps find me, still, they do find me.

I'll bet it's the foot fetish guys, isn't it?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Um, are you there, I just want to tell you what a POS you are!

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, the anti-empowered woman guys.

I'll bet it's the foot fetish guys, isn't it?

 

[cw5523729]

No, the anti-empowered woman guys.

Oooo, so you mean the guys who won't vote for you to be queen of Literotica? Fuck those douche bags. Their probably incels anyway.