Write a controversial opinion

[MelissaBaby]

Alright, here's a controversial opinion, and it's about writing too. So discuss this:

People who claim that clever and/or flirty dialogue is their favourite part of writing are leaning too hard into the wish fulfilment/author insert aspect of writing.

That's actually a good thing if the author is really clever and flirty in real life.

 

[crookedletter]

That's interesting you say this.

In April 2015 I was commissioned to take photographs of the art at a particular airport. Yes, as expected I took pictures of the very expensive and critically acclaimed installations by various local notables in their art scene. (Yawn)

I also found and photographed the trolls that an unknown welder created and placed on the new bridges around the airport.

I took pictures of the handmade stainless steel chainmail that acted as a sunshade in the airport parking garage. The contractor had built a machine to use stainless steel wire which it knit together to make chain mail.

I photographed the exquisitely crafted panels in the elevators.

I photographed the beveled edges on the glass windows in certain places that gave a prismatic effect on the terminal floor that no one else had noticed.

I photographed the whimsical patterns in the concrete walkways that, when assembled in a mosaic, creates the formula for lift.

I also discovered and photographed a window that was placed asymmetrically from the other windows in the admin building. It stood out and looked odd and I determined to find out why. On the solstices the window reflects sunlight into the accounting office. I did not find that to be a coincidence.

The airport's PIO had no idea of any of this yet it ended up in their coffee table book and many of the pictures were printed and framed and placed in offices around the airport.

So, no, I have no idea what art is.

Edit: I will look around and find some of the images and post them on my Tumblr https://www.tumblr.com/baztrachian

I was referring to your use of the term "high art" to describe what AI content generators shit out.

Also maybe I should have used a meme. I was quoting the great Inigo Montoya.

 

[MelissaBaby]

ouch! but also, maybe. it's so much easier to be charming and flirty via asynchronous text than in real life.

No, it's harder. Nobody gets to vote on how charming you really are in real life.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Alright, here's a controversial opinion, and it's about writing too. So discuss this:

People who claim that clever and/or flirty dialogue is their favourite part of writing are leaning too hard into the wish fulfilment/author insert aspect of writing.

So when someone throws you an insult, do you have to think your answer back thoroughly and make sure the words sound just right and musical so that it is pretty to say?

Tsk, tsk, tsk... By the time you're ready for that they'll ask you to text them your answer and walk off...

 

[Baztrachian]

I was referring to your use of the term "high art" to describe what AI content generators shit out.

I was referring to this:



This is a very good representation of my original photo rendered as a work by Albert Bierstadt.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This seems like an intuitively sensible proposition, but I'm trying to think of examples that demonstrate its truth. In most cases I can think of, the twist enhanced the story.

I was thinking primarily of amateur outlets like Lit; for professional publishing/film/etc. the success rate with twists would probably be better.

I don't intend to name individual Lit stories, but one example that I saw quite often back when I read NC/Reluc is the "noncon story but in the last paragraph it's revealed that it's actually an agreed roleplay" trope. Or its counterpart, slightly less common but still pretty common, "story about an agreed nonconsent roleplay only her boyfriend's voice sounds different and he smells different and he's taller and circumcised and - TWIST it's not actually her boyfriend".

Those particular ones tend to fall flat because they've been done so often, but even aside from that, the gimmick tends to dominate the storytelling at the expense of other things the author could be doing.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

I was thinking primarily of amateur outlets like Lit; for professional publishing/film/etc. the success rate with twists would probably be better.

I don't intend to name individual Lit stories, but one example that I saw quite often back when I read NC/Reluc is the "noncon story but in the last paragraph it's revealed that it's actually an agreed roleplay" trope. Or its counterpart, slightly less common but still pretty common, "story about an agreed nonconsent roleplay only her boyfriend's voice sounds different and he smells different and he's taller and circumcised and - TWIST it's not actually her boyfriend".

Those particular ones tend to fall flat because they've been done so often, but even aside from that, the gimmick tends to dominate the storytelling at the expense of other things the author could be doing.

That's the same effect as an "it was all a dream" twist. It's really cheap, and it cheats the reader. I think what these authors need is to figure out how to execute a plot twist, because this all seems poor execution.

 

[Erozetta]

That's the same effect as an "it was all a dream" twist. It's really cheap, and it cheats the reader. I think what these authors need is to figure out how to execute a plot twist, because this all seems poor execution.

ooh, I once got a comment from a reader that essentially said they were mad that I made them like the "It was a dream" twist. (Which wasn't a twist because the "it was a dream" implication was literally in the title of the story. ) But I didn't end the story at the dream revelation, the story continued from there, the dream informed decisions after the fact and basically threw off the main character's normal instincts for the rest of the story.

 

[Statius]

ooh, I once got a comment from a reader that essentially said they were mad that I made them like the "It was a dream" twist. (Which wasn't a twist because the "it was a dream" implication was literally in the title of the story. ) But I didn't end the story at the dream revelation, the story continued from there, the dream informed decisions after the fact and basically threw off the main character's normal instincts for the rest of the story.

That's a twist I could get behind.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

ooh, I once got a comment from a reader that essentially said they were mad that I made them like the "It was a dream" twist. (Which wasn't a twist because the "it was a dream" implication was literally in the title of the story. ) But I didn't end the story at the dream revelation, the story continued from there, the dream informed decisions after the fact and basically threw off the main character's normal instincts for the rest of the story.

That's what I meant with how to execute it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's the same effect as an "it was all a dream" twist. It's really cheap, and it cheats the reader. I think what these authors need is to figure out how to execute a plot twist, because this all seems poor execution.

I quote this review over and over because it's just so true: "The director...has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why."

Authors need to learn how to use tools like plot twists, yes, but they also need to learn how to ask themselves "is this a story that actually needs a plot twist?" and "what am I giving up in exchange for this twist, and is it worth it?"

 

[Robin_Starveling]

That's the same effect as an "it was all a dream" twist. It's really cheap, and it cheats the reader. I think what these authors need is to figure out how to execute a plot twist, because this all seems poor execution.

Don’t know about cheap, but people like to be cheated. They’re perfectly comfortable living their entire lives in a lie.

 

[crookedletter]

I quote this review over and over because it's just so true: "The director...has learned from better films that directors sometimes tilt their cameras, but he has not learned why."

Authors need to learn how to use tools like plot twists, yes, but they also need to learn how to ask themselves "is this a story that actually needs a plot twist?" and "what am I giving up in exchange for this twist, and is it worth it?"

Also: is the twist actually more interesting than what's presented/implied? Too often the "twist" is maddening and disappointing because what I thought I was reading/watching was pretty interesting, until the writer steps in with their GOTCHA and reveals that it's actually not interesting at all.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Don’t know about cheap, but people like to be cheated. They’re perfectly comfortable living their entire lives in a lie.

Hey, I thought we decided not to bring up religion again.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

Don’t know about cheap, but people like to be cheated. They’re perfectly comfortable living their entire lives in a lie.

Readers are smarter than you think. Having said that, I get the feeling that you're trying to steer the conversation into a form of cheating that involves having sex outside of wedlock when both spouses consent to it. If this is the case, Loving Wives is right here. You're more than welcome to join that party.

 

[SimonDoom]

I was thinking primarily of amateur outlets like Lit; for professional publishing/film/etc. the success rate with twists would probably be better.

I don't intend to name individual Lit stories, but one example that I saw quite often back when I read NC/Reluc is the "noncon story but in the last paragraph it's revealed that it's actually an agreed roleplay" trope. Or its counterpart, slightly less common but still pretty common, "story about an agreed nonconsent roleplay only her boyfriend's voice sounds different and he smells different and he's taller and circumcised and - TWIST it's not actually her boyfriend".

Those particular ones tend to fall flat because they've been done so often, but even aside from that, the gimmick tends to dominate the storytelling at the expense of other things the author could be doing.

That makes sense. I think the wrinkle at Literotica is that readers tend to know what kind of erotic satisfaction they are looking for, and if at the end of the story you pull the rug out from under their feet it's understandable they might be frustrated or dissatisfied. It's not like reading a collection of Stephen King or Flannery O'Connor stories where you might expect a nasty, dark twist at the end.

 

[Britva415]

That's actually a good thing if the author is really clever and flirty in real life.

except for the wish-fulfillment part.

 

[Erozetta]

That's what I meant with how to execute it.

Yeah, I got that. Your comment just reminded me of that comment and it tickled me to remember someone getting mad because they liked something they didn't want to like, lol.

 

[Robin_Starveling]

Hey, I thought we decided not to bring up religion again.

The non-religious are often the most fanatical believers, and they can be quite dangerous, especially when they’re not nearly as clever as they think they are.

This hell could’ve been heaven if it weren’t infested with so many morons.

 

[iwatchus]

Alright, here's a controversial opinion, and it's about writing too. So discuss this:

People who claim that clever and/or flirty dialogue is their favourite part of writing are leaning too hard into the wish fulfilment/author insert aspect of writing.

Witty dialogue is my favorite part of many movies. Far fewer people in the real world have a snap quip ready like they do in movies. But that's okay. It;s part of the fantasy I am looking for. I want it in many of my stories as well.

Witty reparte seems like a minor stretch of plausibility compared to ninety nine percent of the plot devices here.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Also: is the twist actually more interesting than what's presented/implied? Too often the "twist" is maddening and disappointing because what I thought I was reading/watching was pretty interesting, until the writer steps in with their GOTCHA and reveals that it's actually not interesting at all.

What I find even more frustrating is when the twist reveals something that could have been really interesting but delaying the revelation leaves the author with no room to develop it adequately.

That makes sense. I think the wrinkle at Literotica is that readers tend to know what kind of erotic satisfaction they are looking for, and if at the end of the story you pull the rug out from under their feet it's understandable they might be frustrated or dissatisfied. It's not like reading a collection of Stephen King or Flannery O'Connor stories where you might expect a nasty, dark twist at the end.

Part of the trap here is that authors writing a twist ending often seem to be aiming to maximise reader surprise, via dissonance between the pre-twist story and the revelation, and the easiest way to do that is through inconsistency. Any schmuck can surprise their readers by having the kindly grandma suddenly revealed as the murderer, without making any attempt at reconciling those two parts of her nature. But it ends up feeling like a cheat. As you note, that's particularly an issue in erotica where many readers aren't looking to be surprised, but even in mainstream fiction that kind of whiplash isn't often a good thing.

Trying to think of twist endings by King, the one that comes to mind is "Springheel Jack". In that one he never actually confirms the twist; instead it ends with the narrator's rising horror as he starts to suspect what's going on with the local serial killer. Although the narrator's suspicion only develops late in the story, the atmosphere is building towards it from the start, and by the time it's revealed it almost feels inevitable. It doesn't have that disjointedness.

 

[NuclearFairy]

About twists. My story with a twist in it, is also my lowest rated story and I often assume that's in large part because of the twist.

On the other hand, my "It's all a dream" story isn't actually a twist. The MC assumes when the weird thing happened that she's dreaming. And it never gets confirmed or denied. It might be a dream, it might not. But the scores on that one are actually pretty good so I must've hit the mark with most people at least with it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The non-religious are often the most fanatical believers, and they can be quite dangerous, especially when they’re not nearly as clever as they think they are.

Well, that's totally not me. I'm every bit as clever as I think I am.

This heaven could’ve not been hell if it weren’t infested with so many morons.

Fixed that for you.

 

[MelissaBaby]

except for the wish-fulfillment part.

I ignored that part because it just seems like nonsense to me. What? So Davis Simon wrote all that snappy dialogue for The Wire because he wished he was a drug dealer?

And why is wish fulfillment a negative thing anyway?

 

[Robin_Starveling]

Well, that's totally not me. I'm every bit as moron as everyone think I am.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.