In praise of having multiple beta-readers

[PennyThompson]

So this is partially a brag, but on other people not on myself!

I just submitted a story for publishing that I'm really proud of, significantly longer and more plot-heavy than anything I've ever written, and at different points along the development and writing process five different Lit friends gave me various forms of alpha- and beta-reading assistance.

@SinclairGroupLLP encouraged me to stick with it when I was intimidated by the length it was turning into, and was drip-feeding him a couple thousand words at a time.

@THBGato gave me invaluable advice on the finer points of slow burn lesbian romances, some of which I ignored, probably to my detriment

@Actingup and @Nynah tag-teamed me in a google doc, helping me think about pacing and tone and plotting. Watching both of them pick apart my story via google doc comments is the closest I get to BDSM, but I kind of loved it...

And the wonderful @EmilyMiller gave me a fantastically detailed and insightful beta-read, and made me realize that I had over-used a couple of words to an embarrassing degree

Having a diversity of readers like this was so incredibly helpful, they each brought a different perspective and set of skills and they all unquestionably helped me make my finished story ten times better. When you find beta readers that will give you honest, critical, constructive feedback, never ever let them go

 

[dirk2024]

Good Job!

 

[Actingup]

So this is partially a brag, but on other people not on myself!

I just submitted a story for publishing that I'm really proud of, significantly longer and more plot-heavy than anything I've ever written, and at different points along the development and writing process five different Lit friends gave me various forms of alpha- and beta-reading assistance.

@SinclairGroupLLP encouraged me to stick with it when I was intimidated by the length it was turning into, and was drip-feeding him a couple thousand words at a time.

@THBGato gave me invaluable advice on the finer points of slow burn lesbian romances, some of which I ignored, probably to my detriment

@Actingup and @Nynah tag-teamed me in a google doc, helping me think about pacing and tone and plotting. Watching both of them pick apart my story via google doc comments is the closest I get to BDSM, but I kind of loved it...

And the wonderful @EmilyMiller gave me a fantastically detailed and insightful beta-read, and made me realize that I had over-used a couple of words to an embarrassing degree

Having a diversity of readers like this was so incredibly helpful, they each brought a different perspective and set of skills and they all unquestionably helped me make my finished story ten times better. When you find beta readers that will give you honest, critical, constructive feedback, never ever let them go

Some time ago, I attended an arts festival performance where the (small) audience was seated in rows in a regular hotel room, facing the bed while a couple played out a romantic drama. This was kind of like that, except that we got invited to throw peanuts!

It's always an honour to watch your creative process up close, Penny.

 

[TheLobster]

Some people struggle to find a single beta readers. Others casually brag about having five.

There's probably an allegory about dating market in there.

 

[PennyThompson]

Some people struggle to find a single beta readers. Others casually brag about having five.

There's probably an allegory about dating market in there.

 

[Nynah]

Watching both of them pick apart my story via google doc comments is the closest I get to BDSM, but I kind of loved it...

I've never been a BDSM girlie myself, but I enjoy playing even the smallest part in your creative process so I guess I'll have to reckon with this newfound fetish somehow...

Thank you for trusting us to aid you with your writing; it's always an honor, as @Actingup said. Eagerly looking forward to the finished result.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The magic number of beta readers, imho, is two, in that, if one person tells you about an issue which you don't immediately see yourself, it may just be their personal view or quirk, if two of them tell you the same thing independently, then it's likely you have a problem.

After that, you get diminishing returns. If four people have already told you that the story is 'fine' how likely are you to listen to being told it had major structural issues by the fifth?

On the other hand, as I've grown in confidence, I'm less worried about getting people to read my stuff. I enjoy beta reading even on a 'bad' story and a lot of the people I'd read for are people whose stories I'd read anyway when they were published.

Regarding finding beta readers, it requires both a degree of luck and making your own luck. It helps if you are willing to reciptocate and have a good portfolio already and maybe a good reputation on the AH board. Even then, people are going to flake on you or flat out say no.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Sounds like a pretty awesome team...
Nice to have friends in your corner...

Cagivagurl

 

[PennyThompson]

The magic number of beta readers, imho, is two, in that, if one perdon tells you about an issue which you don't immediately see yourself, it may just be their personal view or quirk, if two of them tell you the same thing independently, then it's likely you have a problem.

After that, you get diminishing returns. If four people have already told you that the story is 'fine' how likely are you to listen to being told it had major structural issues by the fifth?

I think part of what I'm finding benefit from is that different people have different strengths as writers, and different tastes and perspectives as readers.

Maybe it's a fine line between trying to please everyone and trying to synthesize differing opinions and finding the nuance between them, but I've found the act of finding that line to be so rewarding!

 

[onehitwanda]

@Actingup and @Nynah tag-teamed me in a google doc

sluuuuuut.

 

[Bazzle]

Well done, its soooo much better to have several people checking your work, it improves it no end.

I also find it helps make one a better writer.

 

[onehitwanda]

I've never been a BDSM girlie myself

 

[Dreamerman77]

You're lucky to have beta-readers. I have to divide into multiple personalities to have the same experience. So far I have two; tired and tipsy, neither are very good at giving feedback.

 

[Actingup]

The magic number of beta readers, imho, is two, in that, if one person tells you about an issue which you don't immediately see yourself, it may just be their personal view or quirk, if two of them tell you the same thing independently, then it's likely you have a problem.

After that, you get diminishing returns. If four people have already told you that the story is 'fine' how likely are you to listen to being told it had major structural issues by the fifth?

On the other hand, as I've grown in confidence, I'm less worried about getting people to read my stuff. I enjoy beta reading even on a 'bad' story and a lot of the people I'd read for are people whose stories I'd read anyway when they were published.

Regarding finding beta readers, it requires both a degree of luck and making your own luck. It helps if you are willing to reciptocate and have a good portfolio already and maybe a good reputation on the AH board. Even then, people are going to flake on you or flat out say no.

I think that this is fair. I can't speak for Penny (and I know she's replied separately), but I think the process she's talking about is as much a multi-voiced focus group feeding the creative process as a beta read, either focusing on different things or ganging up on the author. My experiences have been like:

Penny: What was she wearing, ActingUp?
Nynah: I've done that position and the mechanics look more like this...
Penny: Urgh. More Pink Floyd?
Nynah: Bury the Pink Floyd.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The magic number of beta readers, imho, is two, in that, if one person tells you about an issue which you don't immediately see yourself, it may just be their personal view or quirk, if two of them tell you the same thing independently, then it's likely you have a problem.

I had two at the same time at one point, when I was writing The Dark Chronicles, my take on the Arthurian mythos, and a few other stories around that time. They both encouraged me during the long ten months it took to write the novel, and tempered my worst inclinations. At one point Jase gave me an anal sex quota, suggesting I not go on about it quite so much. I heeded that advice.

However, he got quite difficult as an editor. Every time he sent content back, he'd changed every reference to the woman to a slim hipped young boy, and I had to change it all back. He's no longer here on Lit, and we lost touch during the first year of covid. I miss the little fucker, something fierce.

 

[EmilyMiller]

So this is partially a brag, but on other people not on myself!

I just submitted a story for publishing that I'm really proud of, significantly longer and more plot-heavy than anything I've ever written, and at different points along the development and writing process five different Lit friends gave me various forms of alpha- and beta-reading assistance.

@SinclairGroupLLP encouraged me to stick with it when I was intimidated by the length it was turning into, and was drip-feeding him a couple thousand words at a time.

@THBGato gave me invaluable advice on the finer points of slow burn lesbian romances, some of which I ignored, probably to my detriment

@Actingup and @Nynah tag-teamed me in a google doc, helping me think about pacing and tone and plotting. Watching both of them pick apart my story via google doc comments is the closest I get to BDSM, but I kind of loved it...

And the wonderful @EmilyMiller gave me a fantastically detailed and insightful beta-read, and made me realize that I had over-used a couple of words to an embarrassing degree

Having a diversity of readers like this was so incredibly helpful, they each brought a different perspective and set of skills and they all unquestionably helped me make my finished story ten times better. When you find beta readers that will give you honest, critical, constructive feedback, never ever let them go

A pleasure to help.

I think there is comfort in numbers when you are pushing yourself to do something different to your norm. I’d written stories (well one story) as long as Heaven & Hole before, but never one with so complex a plot and so large a cast of characters. I had a lot of people read it, as acknowledged in the end notes.

Also, if you are a thoroughly pleasant and positive person, like Penny, others are going to be more willing to help. If you have genuine talent, again like Penny, even more so.

 

[onehitwanda]

he'd changed every reference to the woman to a slim hipped young boy,

 

[TheLobster]

I really hope you're not implying that writers who crave beta reader feedback or editorial help are solely to blame for "not putting in enough" when they fail to find it. It would sound awfully close to the equivalent of "all those poors just need to work more!" and I'm sure you recognize that it is not always so simple.

 

[PennyThompson]

I really hope you're not implying that writers who crave beta reader feedback or editorial help are solely to blame for "not putting in enough" when they fail to find it. It would sound awfully close to the equivalent of "all those poors just need to work more!" and I'm sure you recognize that it is not always so simple.

More observing that the majority of guys who complain bitterly about never having a date tend to not be very pleasant or lovable, nor actually interested in something beyond the transactional. But I really don't want this to turn into a red pill discussion about dating strategy

 

[TheLobster]

More observing that the majority of guys who complain bitterly about never having a date tend to not be very pleasant or lovable, nor actually interested in something beyond the transactional. But I really don't want this to turn into a red pill discussion about dating strategy

Tsk, tsk... I'm disappointed, Penny. As a widely regarded erotica writer, you should know better than to try and explain your innuendos

 

[PennyThompson]

Tsk, tsk... I'm disappointed, Penny. As a widely regarded erotica writer, you should know better than to try and explain your innuendos

WIWAW but only for you

 

[Nynah]

View attachment 2554995

Let me be clear, given Penny's commentary on her experience with our feedback process, I would be more than happy to explore this new avenue of Kinky Fuckery if it meant I got to read your work sooner.

(is this a ploy to ask to beta read for you? no, not really. unless...)

 

[PennyThompson]

no, not really. unless...

 

[onehitwanda]

More observing that the majority of guys who complain bitterly about never having a date tend to not be very pleasant or lovable, nor actually interested in something beyond the transactional. But I really don't want this to turn into a red pill discussion about dating strategy

Yep, it's Pikawow time again...

 

[onehitwanda]

Let me be clear, given Penny's commentary on her experience with our feedback process, I would be more than happy to explore this new avenue of Kinky Fuckery if it meant I got to read your work sooner.

(is this a ploy to ask to beta read for you? no, not really. unless...)

... what have you done, Wanda.