Where is the line in Kink with respecting other's kinks and stepping in if you think someone is being hurt

[njlauren]

This is one that has created some huge rows in the past on other sites,hopefully won't here. I am not active in the BD/SM world, haven't been for a long time, so it isn't something that affects me personally.

The question is, we are told in the BD/SM world to respect other people's kinks, and that it isn't our right to judge others kinks or to perhaps act if you think something is wrong.

At play parties, this is what DM's are for, and if you see something dubious you are supposed to let them know and let them act as appropriate, and that makes sense.

But what about when it isn't at a party? For example, there are extreme D/s or M/s relationships where the M (could be a D, too) has absolute power and they literally, in their eyes, have a relationship where the M or D has the right to literally do anything, including bodily harm (and this is not just theoretical, I know of cases like this where you are talking things like bones broken or even worse, one s had to have her spleen removed bc her M was a jealous fucktard; fortunately, he was charged because the doctors said it wasn't an accident and the level of hurt on her body was abuse, pure and simple).

Recognizing that people have very different notions of relationships, when is it appropriate to step in? (and again, this is purely hypothetical, this forum is about as close as I get to the 'real thing' and has bee that way many years). If you know a M/s pair where you think the s is being abused, do you step in or try and get them help, even if they tell you it is okay? And if so, how is that different than an abused housewife with a black eye claiming she slipped and fell?

And I ask this genuinely, it is something I have thought about over the years. To me, there has to be a point where your kink is okay, period, and where you make a judgement call if you think someone is being abused, that abuse is not kink. Where that line is, if I felt it that strongly, I personally would intercede, I don't think people have the right to consent to real abuse (and yes, that line is not all so clear either..I knew people into pretty heavy punishment/play that do some pretty far out things and could get banged up, yet I didn't feel it was abusive, bc there was care there and they took care of each other.). There is no right answer, I am just curious what people think.

 

[PaxNurgle]

Sometimes, it is hard to know when to "mind your own buisness" and when to take action without fear of overstepping your bounds. One thing I would do is try and get the person you think is being abused to confide in you, privately get them one on one and be an open ear, and ask them, as a friend, how they genuinely feel about what is happening. Then, depending on what they share, you might have a better feel on whether they need help (or want help) in ending an abusive relationship.

Or, perhaps, talk to the abuser as a mentor, in a respectful manner, and try and let them know that, while corporal punishment is certainly a valid part of BDSM, there is a line where some activity is dangerous, perhaps even life-threatening, and unhealthy- and perhaps subtly suggest they may have crossed that line. But do so in a way that still respects the privacy and dignity of their relationship.

There is no easy answer, I'm afraid.

 

[ultramarineblue]

This is a difficult line to determine. However the sayings, “safe, sane, consent” and “risk aware consensual kink” mean to me that even when the play is heavy, it is done so with the safety of all involved in mind. If someone is going to play hard, they have to research how to do so as safely as possible to limit the risks of injuries like damaging organs, breaking bones, emotional damage, etc.

Paz suggested some great ways to try to determine when things might seem not quite safe.

I personally very much want to please a partner I’m with therefore I have to extremely careful that I communicate any hesitations or issues I might have with an activity. I know my tendency is to accept and receive even if it may not be something I want or need. I’ve had some incredible partners that saw that in me and did not take advantage of it. They were very clear that I had to voice any issue I had be it mental or physical.

I also learned through all of that I have to take responsibility for myself to voice those issues and if someone ignores serious ones, that’s when more communication takes place. Of course, there are going to be times where accidents, physical and mental, happen. That’s when taking care of the accident takes place either through cutting some ropes off, ending a scene, communicating, or whatever else is needed. Hopefully if they’ve researched what to do in place of an accident, it isn’t too serious.

 

[Winter_Fare]

There is no line, at least not one easily visible to bystanders. And as an outsider, you will only ever have half the story. Unless they were actual friends of mine, I wouldn't intervene by interrupting and talking to them at a party.
Disclaimer, broken bones arterial bleeding and unconsciousness are medical issues. I would just call an ambulance and advise first aid.

 

[IrisAlthea]

But what about when it isn't at a party? For example, there are extreme D/s or M/s relationships where the M (could be a D, too) has absolute power and they literally, in their eyes, have a relationship where the M or D has the right to literally do anything, including bodily harm

This is conflicted for me.
There is a limit where I think things are going too far. I also know that there are times when people have had opinions like that about my relationships and I certainly don’t want them to have any power to meddle in my business.

Telling people that you react strongly to things you see and/or asking if everything is ok, can work well but there is no guarantee.

If the people involved say they are ok with the situation and it still is too hard to watch, it’s best to remove yourself from the situation, I think.
If you think someone really is being abused but unwilling to do anything about it though, it can be a big help if you can stay in touch with that person and be a non-judgemental friend they can turn to if they decide they want the help.

 

[njlauren]

I appreciate the responses. I was thinking more lifestyle relationships with power control (D/s, TPE, etc) rather than just in play (like I said, at a play party, I would leave it to the Dms). I have heard of relationships where my real question came up, where they talk about the fact that the M has the right to do anything to the s, including physical harm or even death. I would have taken this as online fantasy, but I got this from people I trust inherently, I don't think they would exaggerate.

Obviously, this is an extreme, but if people are in a D/s there is a line to me like with any relationship, between abuse and the normal dynamics. And yes, it is hard, NYC had a ADA not all that long ago (well, okay, I am old, so to others would seem like ceturies) who like many of her generation, thought that any kind of scene play was abuse, that it constituted assault (not going to mention names, but she was the head of their sex crimes area, a relative of mine worked under her dealing with sex crimes involving children). I would argue the line might be, for example, where true harm happens, but when does that happen? (and again, I am kind of thinking out loud here). I have been in the position where after a pretty strenuous scene I was in what to an outsider would seem like I was in distress, but it (for me) was normal coming down.

The problem is that what is done in these kind of relationships is easy to construe as abuse if you don't know. I have fortunately never had this happen in real life,I guess I was lucky the people I was around, but the other day was thinking about it, and thought I would throw it out there. The irony is I am not thinking only of the physical, but the kind of emotional abuse that can be inflected in a D/s when it is near or at total power exchange, there is already a strong level of trust there and like a very trusting partner in a vanilla relationship, lot of room for abuse. I was thinking if I felt that there was permanent mental or physical damage I would intercede or at least try and find out more, to make sure it was okay, but as others have said, it wouldn't be an easy situation. I know some vanilla couples where I am glad they aren't into kink, and it isn't just men, I know both male and female partners who in some ways tend to be domme, where I would be afraid for their partner if they got into the D/s thing (and could they have been? Maybe, but I didn't get any of that vibe), there already was emotional abuse there IMO.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I would argue the line might be, for example, where true harm happens, but when does that happen?

For me, it comes down to a question about what you can consent to and when if ever, family, friends, society should step in and save someone from themselves.

But a lot of things we do are dangerous. I'm transgender. The surgeries I have gone under are technically dangerous. I could get an infection, I could die from complications with my anesthesia, blah blah blah. I choose to do this anyway. It's a different situation entirely, but the point is that people take risks to do what they love and what brings them joy in life,

This is one example where there has been discussion about how to handle peoples freedom to choose for themselves and risk/harm. There are other examples like martial arts, drugs, mental health treatment, denying treatment etc.

Beyond the need for truly informed consent, these discussions will probably always be uncomfortable for anyone who knows their life choice could easily be questioned.

 

[Primalex]

I think the approach itself is more important than a guaranteed accurate assessment of the situation. Being wrong is different when you are aggressively trying to "rescue" someone and insisting that they must be brainwashed if they don't see it the way you do vs. when you respectfully inquire and offer support just in case.

 

[Duke_Pyratorum]

I appreciate the responses. I was thinking more lifestyle relationships with power control (D/s, TPE, etc) rather than just in play (like I said, at a play party, I would leave it to the Dms). I have heard of relationships where my real question came up, where they talk about the fact that the M has the right to do anything to the s, including physical harm or even death. I would have taken this as online fantasy, but I got this from people I trust inherently, I don't think they would exaggerate.

Obviously, this is an extreme, but if people are in a D/s there is a line to me like with any relationship, between abuse and the normal dynamics. And yes, it is hard, NYC had a ADA not all that long ago (well, okay, I am old, so to others would seem like ceturies) who like many of her generation, thought that any kind of scene play was abuse, that it constituted assault (not going to mention names, but she was the head of their sex crimes area, a relative of mine worked under her dealing with sex crimes involving children). I would argue the line might be, for example, where true harm happens, but when does that happen? (and again, I am kind of thinking out loud here). I have been in the position where after a pretty strenuous scene I was in what to an outsider would seem like I was in distress, but it (for me) was normal coming down.

The problem is that what is done in these kind of relationships is easy to construe as abuse if you don't know. I have fortunately never had this happen in real life,I guess I was lucky the people I was around, but the other day was thinking about it, and thought I would throw it out there. The irony is I am not thinking only of the physical, but the kind of emotional abuse that can be inflected in a D/s when it is near or at total power exchange, there is already a strong level of trust there and like a very trusting partner in a vanilla relationship, lot of room for abuse. I was thinking if I felt that there was permanent mental or physical damage I would intercede or at least try and find out more, to make sure it was okay, but as others have said, it wouldn't be an easy situation. I know some vanilla couples where I am glad they aren't into kink, and it isn't just men, I know both male and female partners who in some ways tend to be domme, where I would be afraid for their partner if they got into the D/s thing (and could they have been? Maybe, but I didn't get any of that vibe), there already was emotional abuse there IMO.

When I entered into this lifestyle the entire concept of BDSM was still considered a mental disease. It did not matter which side of the BD or SM you fell into. Charges were more likely brought when there were injuries involved. So I do totally get where you are in your take on the ADA.
However, since the internet and no formal training is really offered or mentored as it were in the days when I started; most of what passes for a large majority of these so-called D/s or M/s couples stand a better than average chance of finding themselves facing charges.
For myself, one does not strike a sub or slave above the shoulders or below the knee with the exception of the sole of the foot. This rule or training was so a sub or slave could still appear in a public setting without drawing attention to either themself or their D or M. It also took out things that many still do not know how to properly do or execute which results in the injury in the first place.
My honest opinion is that the internet was the first major downfall of the BDSM lifestyle, and the second was the abuse written in Fifty Shades of Bullshit. The start of the wannabee runs is how I look at these things and it does nothing but for the most part ruined a sub that could become well trained in the right hands, versus suffering the abuse of someone who can not spell aftercare let alone perform and do what is required.
Many of my friends and followers call me an OG Dom which is not exactly the case. I was simply trained by OG and 1st generation removed from that lofty position. When I was speaking at a recent munch and suggested that council be brought as it were back in the day, I was told that such did not need to be present, and yet nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, I miss the old days and old ways.

 

[Goldenfinger]

That’s what communication is for.

 

[Lady2020]

I tend to believe it's not so much the difference in kinks but in boundaries. If you know your fantasy partner doesn't share your kinks, why try to coerce her into fulfilling your fantasies when she has stated she doesn't want to do it, it's not her thing? It's like a challenge or the guy gets off on thinking he can force someone to give in to him. Which indicates control issues and not giving af about the other person.

 

[Duke_Pyratorum]

I tend to believe it's not so much the difference in kinks but in boundaries. If you know your fantasy partner doesn't share your kinks, why try to coerce her into fulfilling your fantasies when she has stated she doesn't want to do it, it's not her thing? It's like a challenge or the guy gets off on thinking he can force someone to give in to him. Which indicates control issues and not giving af about the other person.

I do agree with the gist of your statement. There are many D or M that have issues in control. What they do not yet understand is that pushing a boundary is very different than forcing past one. I like to compare such things to a person who enjoys anal versus one who does not. The difference is almost always found in their first experience. One was fucked without lube, while the other was enticed into allowing it to slip past.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I tend to believe it's not so much the difference in kinks but in boundaries. If you know your fantasy partner doesn't share your kinks, why try to coerce her into fulfilling your fantasies when she has stated she doesn't want to do it, it's not her thing? It's like a challenge or the guy gets off on thinking he can force someone to give in to him. Which indicates control issues and not giving af about the other person.

But it is hard to know when you are not in the relationship, as the premise was here, what the deal between the partners is. One persons firm head of household is another persons contol obsessed freak show.
For example, some people get off on micro management and make that an important part of their relationship. From the outside it can easily look like control issues and co-dependency that often show up in an abusive relationship, because even control that is on some level wanted can still be a huge non-fun pain in the butt in the day to day.
To complicate matters, even if it is a dynamic that is agreed upon and both partners wanted it, things can creep in that were not intended and some dynamics can become a slippery slope into what actually ends up being abuse.
I’d actually argue that even in vanilla settings the control issues and jealousy that become problematic, have often been present from the start and even seen in a positive light as desire, passion, romance etc.

When it can be hard even for the people in the relationship to define when it starts being abusive, it is impossible for someone on the outside to tell.
We may well know when we think it does, but that is not the same thing.

 

[IrisAlthea]

So I don't get off on this and this is a "vanilla" aspect of our relationship, but I manage the finances in my relationship. The unwritten "line" would be touching my partner's personal checking or monitoring it. That's his. I manage our shared savings, I determine what we are saving for & where our investments are going, and I keep tabs on the movement of this money for the purposes of planning our future together (short- & long-term, while keeping him in the loop).

But the line is drawn at whatever money he makes and spends for his own sake. I wouldn't control that. That's what I'd/we'd consider financial abuse. What I outlined above is what he asked for me to do out of gratitude that I'm taking care of it for us, and that I am more than happy to do.

So, like you said, it depends on the relationship. In our case, I picked up these reins specifically because it was advantageous for us for me to manage the finances. I'm better at this, he's better at a plethora of other things (don't get me started...). Once it stops being like a team, then you get a problem.

D/s or not, poly or monogamous, a healthy relationship is a team and everyone has a role to fulfill. Once you lose that, then you lose balance. And you don't want that. I think close friends and family (and... therapists) are the ones who are best suited for noticing such changes over time, not more casual bystanders judging a relationship's general structure.

Smiling when I read this, because the thing that I’ve caught most flak for, when it comes to relationships is how we handle money.
We don’t have separate accounts and the fact that I didn’t have ”my own money” and that we discussed any non-routine spending beforehand was such a red flag to some of my friends. They calmed down a bit with time but I learned not to talk about it.
As in your case, this was not a kink thing to us, nor did I consider myself abused or repressed.

I agree that there are slippery slopes in relationships and in D/s/kink and I think friends and family can provide a useful perspective. I think it is important to remember though, that it is their perspective and that it is a limited perspective and that they bring their own values and agenda. I think it is even more important to remember when I am the friend/family.

 

[LittleSwitchy]

Newb to the site here. Scrolling through and found this posting. If I may share some things I saw heard when I was getting into the lifestyle
One that popped into my mind just reading this.
I was on a lifestyle site chat room. There was a Dominant chatting. Talking about a scene they just had. They were talking about caning. They posted a pic of welts over the small of the back.
I had another Dominant DM me and asked what I thought. I told them the first thing I thought was .. did they do damage to kidneys. Everyone else in the chat was all oooo that is hot. My thinking as a newb back then was internal injuries.

 

[LittleSwitchy]

Another time a Dominant was talking about someone they took to a party. The Dominant saw the sun they brought talking to another Dominant. The Dominant went on to tell how they taught the sun a lesson. Basically teed off on the sub. No discussion/ warning. Just in the Dominant mind. I’m teaching a lesson.
To me. That’s abuse. There was no talk of how they were going to play. No after care. It was just.. you will remember this.

 

[TomFoolery8]

Where is the line?
Behind me

 

[dalhart]

Newb to the site here. Scrolling through and found this posting. If I may share some things I saw heard when I was getting into the lifestyle
One that popped into my mind just reading this.
I was on a lifestyle site chat room. There was a Dominant chatting. Talking about a scene they just had. They were talking about caning. They posted a pic of welts over the small of the back.
I had another Dominant DM me and asked what I thought. I told them the first thing I thought was .. did they do damage to kidneys. Everyone else in the chat was all oooo that is hot. My thinking as a newb back then was internal injuries.

You say you were "thinking as a newb", but from where I'm sitting if I had a Dom, that's exactly the kind of thing I would want to be their first thought.

 

[SimplySilver]

On the informational side:

The line between abuse and kink will always be consent. You can question a person's ability to consent when you witness: coercion, impaired mental state (slurring, inability to orient to date/time/place/person, unconsciousness, clear drug/alcohol impairment), or if you have a solid knowledge that consent is being ignored (e.g. they safeworded, it wasn't respected). You may only take immediate action on their behalf when it is clear their ability to consent has been compromised, or if they are in a life threatening situation.

If you feel strongly that you must act, do so with awareness and in ways that are cautious and safe. Be aware of the consequences, positive and negative, that it may have on your relationship with the person(s) involved and their well being.

An abuser can be highly reactive and many have a fragile high confidence. If the abuser perceives a threat to their control, they tend to take steps to eliminate it (threatening the person interceding, removing their partner from contact, potentially harming the individual if escalated) and or extend their control over their partner (injury, financially, threats, etc) to ensure that they don't lose them.

It should also be warned that not all abuse victims will be happy with your help, and even with intervention, they may choose to continue the relationship. The cycle of abuse is real, painful, and often entrenched in layers of self doubt, depreciation, and gaslighting.

On the more personal side:

Unfortunately, in respecting people's freedoms, I believe we must respect their ability to make harmful decisions to themselves. This is a hard place to come from; I lived with my abuser for 8 years because I was not mentally, emotionally, or physically in a state that I could safely leave. But I believe strongly that you can always lend a gentle hug and a listening ear to people. Sometimes that is what gives them the ability to make their own choice to leave... and having a friend helps them stay away once they do.