What We Owe The Readers

[SimonDoom]

I agree, except that I see it as a three-part transaction. The publisher rightfully also has a slice of the transaction, including both consideration and responsibility.

I agree with that, and unlike my relationship with the reader, my relationship with the publisher, Literotica, is expressly contractual. I use its services subject to its terms.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sure, but if there's anything valid in the criticism to be gleaned, why would the tone matter?

Because when one human being communicates with another, very often they're communicating on two (or more) different levels at the same time.

At the most basic level, there's the "semantic content", the literal meaning of their words. But at another level, there's very often some implied message about the relationship between those two people. Quite often the implied interpersonal message is more important than the semantic content.

For instance, if I bump into my co-worker and say "nice day today, isn't it?" the semantic content is me making a statement about recent patterns of temperature, sunlight and precipitation, and a request for confirmation. But there's also an implied message along the lines of "Hi fellow human being who shares space with me, just checking in to confirm that things between us continue to be amicable and there is no drama going on".

When they reply "yes, I hope it stays like this for the weekend," they're not only telling me what their aspirations are for the next few days' temperature/sunlight/precipitation numbers, they're confirming that things are normal, they're not mad at me, our working relationship is okay."

In that conversation, the semantic content is just carrier for the interpersonal stuff. They don't need me to tell them what the weather's like, they can just look out the window! We could just as easily have talked about last night's sportsball matchup or whatever.

But sometimes the semantic content feeds into the interpersonal. In particular, pointing out mistakes (semantic content) is very often used as a vehicle for implied messages like "I don't like you" or "I think you're a stupid person, your story sucks, you shouldn't be posting stories here". An unfortunate consequence is that even if we didn't mean it that way - even if we genuinely did just want to tell them the correct use of "its" vs. "it's", with no aspersions on their person - it can easily be heard as hostility.

When that happens, the hearer reacts to the hostility (real or perceived), not to the semantic content. They're going to remember "that person implied that I was an idiot" long after they've forgotten what we were trying to tell them about the use of the apostrophe, because "that person dislikes me and is picking a fight with me" is much more important. If we really did want to get the semantic stuff across, this is a big failure.

Tone is one of the ways we manage those implicit messages. Sometimes it can communicate "I am only saying this as a relevant fact, not as an aspersion on you or your intelligence". If we pretend it doesn't matter, there's all the more chance that we'll end up in an unnecessary fight instead of teaching somebody something useful.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Because when one human being communicates with another, very often they're communicating on two (or more) different levels at the same time.

At the most basic level, there's the "semantic content", the literal meaning of their words. But at another level, there's very often some implied message about the relationship between those two people. Quite often the implied interpersonal message is more important than the semantic content.

For instance, if I bump into my co-worker and say "nice day today, isn't it?" the semantic content is me making a statement about recent patterns of temperature, sunlight and precipitation, and a request for confirmation. But there's also an implied message along the lines of "Hi fellow human being who shares space with me, just checking in to confirm that things between us continue to be amicable and there is no drama going on".

When they reply "yes, I hope it stays like this for the weekend," they're not only telling me what their aspirations are for the next few days' temperature/sunlight/precipitation numbers, they're confirming that things are normal, they're not mad at me, our working relationship is okay."

In that conversation, the semantic content is just carrier for the interpersonal stuff. They don't need me to tell them what the weather's like, they can just look out the window! We could just as easily have talked about last night's sportsball matchup or whatever.

But sometimes the semantic content feeds into the interpersonal. In particular, pointing out mistakes (semantic content) is very often used as a vehicle for implied messages like "I don't like you" or "I think you're a stupid person, your story sucks, you shouldn't be posting stories here". An unfortunate consequence is that even if we didn't mean it that way - even if we genuinely did just want to tell them the correct use of "its" vs. "it's", with no aspersions on their person - it can easily be heard as hostility.

When that happens, the hearer reacts to the hostility (real or perceived), not to the semantic content. They're going to remember "that person implied that I was an idiot" long after they've forgotten what we were trying to tell them about the use of the apostrophe, because "that person dislikes me and is picking a fight with me" is much more important. If we really did want to get the semantic stuff across, this is a big failure.

Tone is one of the ways we manage those implicit messages. Sometimes it can communicate "I am only saying this as a relevant fact, not as an aspersion on you or your intelligence". If we pretend it doesn't matter, there's all the more chance that we'll end up in an unnecessary fight instead of teaching somebody something useful.

Your analogies are great for everyday conversation, but when a writer is looking for valuable written feedback there is a more focused way to look at it.

What I mean is, if someone criticizes you in a rude tone, yet there is validity to their critique, a writer has a choice to look past the tone and glean the valuable critique, or dismiss it completely due to the tone. The former choice is made by the writer when genuinely wants the feedback, the latter is made by the writer who simply wants affirmation for his efforts and ideas.

 

[Kasumi_Lee]

I read an interesting article today about what authors owe readers and it made me think of lit.

The author puts forward that, in general, in exchange for the readers time, authors "owe" the readers five things:

1. A good "Character" that the readers can follow, interesting, distinct and developed.

2. A good "Voice" for the narrator of the story, that supports the tale and is consistent fpr the reader.

3. A good "World" for the story, again, consistent and interesting for the reader.

4. A good "Problem" for the character to resolve. The more interesting the better for the reader.

5. A good "Event" for the character to participate in and the reader to come along through.

So, here's my question. I know that here, in the AH, opinions vary widely on what we, as authors, owe readers - from "not a damn thing" to "everything".

At the macro-level though, outside of a specific story, do you agree that there are things that you, as an author, owe those readers who take the time to enjoy your stories, maybe even follow you, interact with you, or give you votes?

No doubt others have already said this, but although I take enough pride in my writing to make sure it's quality reading, unless the readers are paying to read what I write, my answer to the question is: "not a damn thing".

 

[THBGato]

First of all, my apologies if anyone has already made this point. I'm being lazy and not reading through all four pages. Sorry.

Anyway...

The author puts forward that, in general, in exchange for the readers time, authors "owe" the readers five things:

1. A good "Character" that the readers can follow, interesting, distinct and developed.

2. A good "Voice" for the narrator of the story, that supports the tale and is consistent fpr the reader.

3. A good "World" for the story, again, consistent and interesting for the reader.

4. A good "Problem" for the character to resolve. The more interesting the better for the reader.

5. A good "Event" for the character to participate in and the reader to come along through.

So, here's my question. I know that here, in the AH, opinions vary widely on what we, as authors, owe readers - from "not a damn thing" to "everything".

I totally agreed with this list, and here's why.

Aren't WE all readers?

I know I am. I write what I want to read: thus I owe myself these five things (and more - I'd be pissed off with me if my SPAG wasn't decent). The fact that others then get to benefit from my debt to myself is incidental.

 

[KeithD]

Aren't WE all readers?

I don't read much of anyone else's erotica, no.

 

[THBGato]

I don't read much of anyone else's erotica, no.

I meant of our own writing.

 

[Britva415]

It’s much easier to be perceived as smart and insightful when you notice and dissect flaws in something, as opposed to praising it or even just noticing the good parts. This is the ultimate motivation behind delivering any kind of criticism that will also be read by someone else who’s not the author

What are your thoughts about the substantial frequency with which it's done anonymously?

 

[Britva415]

authors "owe" the readers five things:

1. A good "Character" that the readers can follow, interesting, distinct and developed.

2. A good "Voice" for the narrator of the story, that supports the tale and is consistent fpr the reader.

3. A good "World" for the story, again, consistent and interesting for the reader.

4. A good "Problem" for the character to resolve. The more interesting the better for the reader.

5. A good "Event" for the character to participate in and the reader to come along through.

Too bad "good" is subjective and (rightly or wrongly) judged as a matter of taste.

A lot of readers are getting absolutely stiffed!

 

[Djmac1031]

I don't "owe" readers anything.

That said, if I'm not giving them at least a few things on that list, they don't "owe" me a read either.

Life is too short to read badly written stories.

 

[MissEmmaS]

Hello everyone! This is a really interesting conversation. I definitely don't have any formal writing background, and my stories were just something that I really wanted to share, and I wanted to try and make readers feel the same things that I did when reading other authors' great stories on here.
I know this was said already, but I think "owe" is a strong word that implies that the writer has some sort of obligation to deliver to all readers. The problem is, "good" is so subjective and could mean so many different things to so many people that it is impossible to owe the same experience to everyone.
I wrote my stories from experiences that excited me, and I hoped to excite others. Whether they ticked off all of the boxes that were mentioned at the start is up for debate. My main goal was to give insight into how it made me feel, to try and get others to empathize and possibly feel the same thing as me. It was exciting to me, and if it was exciting to others I was happy.
There was also talk of whether or not criticism should be harsh. I firmly believe that criticism, especially of something that someone poured their heart and creativity into, should be constructive and positive. Positive does not mean "no criticism", it should be about helping the author grow and evolve to write better stories, and not cut them down so they never write again. These are free stories that are a work of passion.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

There was also talk of whether or not criticism should be harsh.

Ask yourself this when reading criticism. Do I care about my craft or my feelings?

You can't have both, at least not both fully. The chakra spins one way or the other.

 

[KeithD]

Ask yourself this when reading criticism. Do I care about my craft or my feelings?

You can't have both, at least not both fully. The chakra spins one way or the other.

I'd first ask--if I didn't see the validity of the criticism--if this commenter has the chops to be teaching others how to write. In most cases on Literotica, the answer is no.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'd first ask--if I didn't see the validity of the criticism--if this commenter has the chops to be teaching others how to write. In most cases on Literotica, the answer is no.

Even so, the reader can always tell you how your stuff reads, which is invaluable since you cannot do this yourself.

 

[KeithD]

Even so, the reader can always tell you how your stuff reads, which is invaluable since you cannot do this yourself.

The reader can tell you how one reader reads your stuff. And some readers have the brains of a gerbil. So, all of it has to be taken with a pile of salt.

If a writer is going to do a lot of this, he/she needs to learn to have confidence in what they write and be discerning in whatever guidance/response they receive.

 

[stonedinstilletos]

I read an interesting article today about what authors owe readers and it made me think of lit.

The author puts forward that, in general, in exchange for the readers time, authors "owe" the readers five things:

1. A good "Character" that the readers can follow, interesting, distinct and developed.

2. A good "Voice" for the narrator of the story, that supports the tale and is consistent fpr the reader.

3. A good "World" for the story, again, consistent and interesting for the reader.

4. A good "Problem" for the character to resolve. The more interesting the better for the reader.

5. A good "Event" for the character to participate in and the reader to come along through.

So, here's my question. I know that here, in the AH, opinions vary widely on what we, as authors, owe readers - from "not a damn thing" to "everything".

At the macro-level though, outside of a specific story, do you agree that there are things that you, as an author, owe those readers who take the time to enjoy your stories, maybe even follow you, interact with you, or give you votes?

I would just 6. A comprehensible (as in grammatically acceptable, spell checked) story. I was reading one yesterday (not going to say title or author) but there were multiple times where they flipped the pronouns (not because it was appropriate because gender identity etc but because they hadn’t checked things) and other grammatical and spelling mistakes that ruined what could have been a good story.

I get that we do this for free, but we also get feedback from people and ratings. So while you can’t bank it, it is some form of recognition that we as authors here are willing to accept.

That’s just my 2 cents.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Your analogies are great for everyday conversation, but when a writer is looking for valuable written feedback there is a more focused way to look at it.

What I mean is, if someone criticizes you in a rude tone, yet there is validity to their critique, a writer has a choice to look past the tone and glean the valuable critique, or dismiss it completely due to the tone. The former choice is made by the writer when genuinely wants the feedback, the latter is made by the writer who simply wants affirmation for his efforts and ideas.

I don't think it's quite that cut-and-dried.

Time and energy are finite. We can't afford to do a full evaluation on everything; sometimes we just have to make a snap judgement and move on. If somebody emails me to say "hello I am a wealthy widow and I want to give you thirty million dollars" I'm not going to stop to read the whole message in detail and evaluate whether this one is for real; I'm going to drop it in the spam bin and get on with my day.

An author who writes off surly "criticism", on the assumption that there's no valid critique inside, is going to be wrong sometimes. But in the long run they might still be doing themselves a favour if that strategy means they miss out on an ounce of valid criticism while also filtering out a ton of hostility.

Communication is a two-way street. If the semantic content of my message is the important part and I want an author to read it, then it's in my interests to meet them halfway by making some effort to prevent that from being derailed by a perceived "you suck, fight me!" or whatever.

For example - I think there have been two times I've commented on your writing. One was unsolicited, and while the points I commented on were things I genuinely saw as weaknesses, I was also rather snarky and that came through in how I communicated.

Without going back to check that message, which part do you remember more? The specifics of writing style that I commented on, or me being snarky at you?

Later, you posted asking for thoughts on a long sentence that was giving you some trouble, and I tried to be more polite on that occasion. From your response then, I know you did take in the semantic content that time.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

I've read some sci-fi novels recently. They're clearly not character driven, so you'd think they're plot driven. But the plot is so convoluted, so all over the place, so twisted and random, that they're better described as BS driven. Even after just finishing the book, I find it difficult to summarize the plot. They hook you and you can't put them down -- you stay up all night to finish them, and a week later you barely remember a thing.

 

[RetroFan]

I try to give the readers what they want in the categories I write in, but I always try to make my stories interesting, for the most part amusing and find lots of different subjects to write about. I also make no apologies for writing about different things that don't come up as often in the stories on the site.

Sometimes my stories are met with great appreciation, some others with indifference and other times negative and even hostile feedback. Indifference would have to be the worst. As I've said before the Erotic Horror category is the worst for this, you really have to use your imagination to write interesting stories there, and its met with close to zero feedback or interest. Even negative feedback would be better than none at all.

It's always great when you get feedback about how you've satisfied the reader with your story, whether the sexual elements and sometimes the non-sexual aspects of the story. My recent April Fools Day story got mostly negative feedback, but one reader praised my descriptions of Sydney Australia where the story was set. One amazing feedback I got was from a guy (presumably) whose fetish was menstruating women wearing the old-fashioned belted sanitary napkins, and as this comes up frequently in my stories set in the past he loved my stories. I never thought this long-gone form of feminine hygiene product would be a fetish (although period fetishes are a niche market on Lit that I have tapped into), but I'm happy that I pleased him and will continue to write stories involving this.

I have to say that those most resistant to change and new ideas or infrequent story themes in their section are the IT fans. Don't get me wrong, lots of people have liked my stories and given positive reviews and ratings and I will continue to write IT stories because I enjoy them, but I always find criticism about things I have written to set the story complaining they are boring or wasted content. For example, a half brother and sister with a large age gap going urban exploring in a creepy abandoned theme park; a set of triplet sisters consisting of identical mirror image twins and a fraternal sister very different in looks having an orgy with their brother and their two cousins (one male, one female) on a holiday in Australia; a guy with a celebrity crush on his stepdaughter who is a (fictional) pop-star/actress; a young guy who is turned on by and indulges in voyeurism with his devoutly religious female cousins and is turned on by them being virgins; a story of an overly close twin brother and sister narrated by their friend who observes strange dynamics between the pair; a stepbrother having to remove ticks from his stepsister's pubic hair and her pussy while she is on her period; a body swap comedy where no end of crazy antics occur; a slacker surfer dude comedy involving mother-daughter sex; a fit brother and his fat younger sister; a stepbrother and stepsister in a haunted house; a woman who kicks her son out of the house for not being woke enough who ends up living with his politically conservative hot aunt and they become lovers; a 44-year-old male virgin who loses his virginity to his crazy 19-year-old niece; foster siblings and double first cousins.

None of the above themes would come up every day, or indeed often at all, and yet most of these aspects gained at least some negative feedback. Oh, and trying to make people laugh is also a problem, or maybe I'm just a bad comedian (I do like Uranus jokes). So while I will continue to write IT stories that of course involve incest, I'm not going to dumb it down and write some story that begins: 'One day my sister and I were at home alone and we were bored. I asked if she wanted to go and fuck in my bedroom, and she said yes.'

 

[Jmanchu]

I'm in the side of "you owe it to yourself" to writing a "good" story before you owe anything to the reader. If the stories you write don't interest you, then why write? If you write a story you like, I'm sure you'll find readers that'll share your vision and tastes.

 

[nice90sguy]

I've read some sci-fi novels recently. They're clearly not character driven, so you'd think they're plot driven. But the plot is so convoluted, so all over the place, so twisted and random, that they're better described as BS driven. Even after just finishing the book, I find it difficult to summarize the plot. They hook you and you can't put them down -- you stay up all night to finish them, and a week later you barely remember a thing.

SF often relies on a "high concept" - Larry Niven's "Ringworld" is a prime example. For some people (like me), a great, single, imaginative concept is enough to get me riveted, in spite of weak characters and plot.

 

[StillStunned]

SF often relies on a "high concept" - Larry Niven's "Ringworld" is a prime example. For some people (like me), a great, single, imaginative concept is enough to get me riveted, in spite of weak characters and plot.

I like a good concept, but I need more.* For me, with fantasy and sci-fi it's all about the story. The plot doesn't have to be amazing, as long as it drives a solid story, and the characters are probably the least important of all. If they experience growth as a result of the story, that's all well and good, but it's not what I'm reading for.

* I'll admit to nearly squealing out loud at the sight of the Dyson Ring in The Book of Boba Fett, though.

 

[TheLobster]

SF often relies on a "high concept" - Larry Niven's "Ringworld" is a prime example. For some people (like me), a great, single, imaginative concept is enough to get me riveted, in spite of weak characters and plot.

The best of sci-fi and fantasy combines the qualities of 'traditional' genres (believable characters, compelling plot, etc.) with the added aspect of worldbuilding, i.e., what you call the "concept."

There are very few authors who manage to hit all those boxes, and they are always timeless classics like most of the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, or Orwell's 1984. Quite often, the quality worldbuilding aspect starts to dwarf the story one (which is understandable as it's damn fun to do the former), as evidenced in Niven's ringworld or Herbert's Dune series. They are still really great works, but they wouldn't necessarily be amazing if you could somehow transplant their characters and plot into a more mundane setting.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Here's my question, who sits down to write a story without trying to make these things happen? Admittedly, writers' abilities to do these things will vary with their writing skills, but my question remains - who's seriously writing and NOT trying to do these things?

 

[KeithD]

Here's my question, who sits down to write a story without trying to make these things happen? Admittedly, writers' abilities to do these things will vary with their writing skills, but my question remains - who's seriously writing and NOT trying to do these things?

True, but the position posed is that we owe that to the reader. I think more that we owe that to ourselves in our own writing.