Underage stories, a cautionary tale

[KeithD]

I commend These mods for not tolerating

It doesn't involve "these mods." Only one person, Laurel, the submissions editor and owner of the site, rules on submissions. The discussion board mods don't.

 

[Whanmore]

Well I commend Laurel

 

[Athalia]

The (mentioning a competing site violates the rules here). site has a minimum of 16.

Other web sites are based in countries where the rules for obscenity are different. I know of one where the cut-off age is 14. I think it's based in Belgium or the Netherlands.

 

[Bianca_P]

Probably not an accidental rejection. If the disclaimer says they're over 18, but they're described as looking/behaving like minors, it's likely to get rejected because too many authors try to slip pedo fetish stories through that way.



It's permitted to mention that a character lost their virginity at 16. What's not permitted is graphic description of that event.



It's not about age-of-consent laws.

Sadly, it's not even permitted to refer to a character losing their virginity under 18. I've just been rejected for exactly that. No descriptions, not even explicitly stated that she'd had sex, I just used a euphemism and it was to imply her recklessness. From what I've read, I think it's a new author thing and once established, some of these harsh interpretations of the rules may slacken a little. The world is just so obsessed and paranoic about paedophiles.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Other web sites are based in countries where the rules for obscenity are different. I know of one where the cut-off age is 14. I think it's based in Belgium or the Netherlands.

Hosting it outside the USA doesn't necessarily put you out of reach of US laws - e.g. this guy was convicted on US obscenity charges for a text-stories site hosted in the Netherlands.

 

[Bianca_P]

Hosting it outside the USA doesn't necessarily put you out of reach of US laws - e.g. this guy was convicted on US obscenity charges for a text-stories site hosted in the Netherlands.

Seems harsh, that. Since erotica art and literature is a perfect way for paedophiles and other harmful fetishists to find an outlet for their potentially harmful and, what we would see as, twisted fantasies. There is less chance of a child being harmed by someone who has an outlet like this than those frustrated and oppressed. And for anyone who believes that the art can and will lead to real-world behaviour, I don't think anyone believes that graphic depictions of rape create rapists. We should also remember that the Bible, Romeo and Juliet, Lolita (and other Nabokov works), Game of Thrones series, Blackbird, The Colour Purple, The Exorcist, Memoirs of a Geisha, and Fanny Hill, all contain references or descriptions of underage sexual activity, even worse most reference consensual sexual activity between adults and young people, and they are all acceptable literature and widely available via international book retailers.

These vague laws (especially in the UK where the subject only has to maybe, possibly, tentatively, appear to be under 18 [for photographs] regardless of provable age, to be classed as underage) puzzle me and make me just a little angry because they protect no-one and probably cause more child abuse than not having the laws.

 

[Lucy_Lastic]

There have to be limits and 18 is a safe one. I have no problem with that because obiously, like every other person here, I never even had a sexual thought until my 18th birthday!

It's an oddity that authors like Anais Nin are fairly mainstream despite some of their age related material but you can't even hint here that you might have stared a bit early (age of consent here is 16), but the site owner has to protect the integrity of the site. We'd be more upset if the site got shut down than if we had a story rejected for breaking the rules.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Seems harsh, that. Since erotica art and literature is a perfect way for paedophiles and other harmful fetishists to find an outlet for their potentially harmful and, what we would see as, twisted fantasies. There is less chance of a child being harmed by someone who has an outlet like this than those frustrated and oppressed.

I have heard this argument before, and it seemed plausible when I first heard it, but the more I read on some of those cases the more doubts I have.

The story I linked to above is about Thomas Alan Arthur. I linked to a release from the time of his conviction, but there's more info in a second release at the time of sentencing:

Additionally, according to court documents and statements made at the sentencing, Arthur sexually assaulted two females who came forward during the investigation of this case. Court documents and statements made in court showed that in approximately 1992, Arthur drugged an adult woman living with him, sexually assaulted her and video recorded it. In another instance, in the early 1980s, Arthur molested a girl when she was four or five years old, who was the daughter of a friend and business associate.

There's more in the criminal complaint:

Although Website A features numerous disclaimers indicating that all of the stories are fictional, a significant percentage of the subscribers I have identified so far have prior convictions for sex crimes against children. Thus far, I have positively identified approximately 19 Website A subscribers ... nine were registered sex offenders for either child sex abuse, child pornography or both. Another is currently awaiting trial in a Utah state court for possessing child pornography and sexually abusing a child. Another was identified as a suspect in a 2007 FBI investigation into an online child pornography ring.

I identified nine instances ... where the FBI was investigating a subject for child pornography and found that the subject accessed Website A. Eight of the subjects were eventually convicted of child pornography offenses and the ninth committed suicide after indictment.

...A review of [website author] usernames showed that many of them were the same as or similar to usernames that appeared in unrelated FBI investigations into child pornography and child sex abuse on other internet forums or peer-to-peer networks.

The other similar case that I'm aware of is Frank McCoy. He was initially busted on obscenity charges for running a website of child sex stories, and at the same time was found with "approximately 20,000 images and almost 200 videos of child pornography on his computer". He was released while appealing that conviction, and was promptly busted again with more child porn videos.

Questions of cause and effect are always tricky here, and not all of the statements above have been tested in a court. But on the face of it, there doesn't seem to be a strong argument that letting these people read stories about child sex abuse is effective at diverting them from participating in actual CSA.

We should also remember that the Bible, Romeo and Juliet, Lolita (and other Nabokov works), Game of Thrones series, Blackbird, The Colour Purple, The Exorcist, Memoirs of a Geisha, and Fanny Hill, all contain references or descriptions of underage sexual activity, even worse most reference consensual sexual activity between adults and young people, and they are all acceptable literature and widely available via international book retailers.

Yep. The US legal standard for "obscenity" is not drawn solely on the absence or presence of under-age sex.

But the point of my previous post here was not to make an argument for what the law should be, only to note what it is.

 

[Lucy_Lastic]

What I find interesting is that underage sex is a BIG no-no, but incest - equally illegal - is rife. Go figure. And bestiality - arguably less illegal, depending where you live - is also banned unless you give the animal a pair of wings.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What I find interesting is that underage sex is a BIG no-no, but incest - equally illegal - is rife. Go figure. And bestiality - arguably less illegal, depending where you live - is also banned unless you give the animal a pair of wings.

Plenty of detective and horror stories here involving murder, which is very illegal indeed. "Legal to do" and "legal to write about" are only very faintly related.

 

[Limnophile]

I've had a story rejected for a young elf taking off her shoes. (Stripping?)
Another rejection was because a boy and girl held hands. (Romantic interest?)
The best approach is that no characters under the age of 21 or resembling anybody under 21 exist here.
Children and very young adults have been banished to other websites where the rules are less strict.
Instead of arguing with a police officer that you parked an inch farther from the fireplug than the law requires, make things easier for both of you by parking across the street instead.

 

[Bianca_P]

What I find interesting is that underage sex is a BIG no-no, but incest - equally illegal - is rife. Go figure. And bestiality - arguably less illegal, depending where you live - is also banned unless you give the animal a pair of wings.

I find that curious, too. Your heroine can't have sex with a stray dog, but she can shag Cerberus all day long. The hero can't masturbate a horse, but a unicorn is fair game. You mustn't describe losing your virginity at seventeen, but your uncle tying you up and raping you is okay.

 

[Bianca_P]

I have heard this argument before, and it seemed plausible when I first heard it, but the more I read on some of those cases the more doubts I have.

The story I linked to above is about Thomas Alan Arthur. I linked to a release from the time of his conviction, but there's more info in a second release at the time of sentencing:



There's more in the criminal complaint:





The other similar case that I'm aware of is Frank McCoy. He was initially busted on obscenity charges for running a website of child sex stories, and at the same time was found with "approximately 20,000 images and almost 200 videos of child pornography on his computer". He was released while appealing that conviction, and was promptly busted again with more child porn videos.

Questions of cause and effect are always tricky here, and not all of the statements above have been tested in a court. But on the face of it, there doesn't seem to be a strong argument that letting these people read stories about child sex abuse is effective at diverting them from participating in actual CSA.



Yep. The US legal standard for "obscenity" is not drawn solely on the absence or presence of under-age sex.

But the point of my previous post here was not to make an argument for what the law should be, only to note what it is.

I by no means suggest it would prevent child abuse, but it certainly doesn't cause it (I'm only talkning about created images and stories, not actual photographs here, which are causing child abuse and perpetuating the act by the nature of demand). Not many men would have tied up a young woman and raped her because they watched Girl with the Dragon tattoo; I'm not convinced that anyone would have gone and slashed open street workers after watching the many films about Jack the Ripper; Grand Theft Auto has been shown to give a safe outlet to violent tendencies rather than cause them. Although, admittedly, there isn't a huge amount or research becasue child abuse is still very taboo, even in accademia.

 

[KeithD]

Every author here needs to pull up their big boys trousers and ask themselves "Am I turned on by teenage girls/boys?" If they are, they need to keep it to themselves and not drag everyone else into their cesspit and normalise school girl sex by writing about it. Simple enough.

Alternately, all writers on this adult site could be adults and mind their own business about what the Web site chooses to accept in the story file here and just be happy that their own stories are accepted (when they are).

 

[Bramblethorn]

I find that curious, too. Your heroine can't have sex with a stray dog, but she can shag Cerberus all day long. The hero can't masturbate a horse, but a unicorn is fair game. You mustn't describe losing your virginity at seventeen, but your uncle tying you up and raping you is okay.

This is pure speculation on my part, I haven't seen any official statement on the matter, but a lot of the content policy (not all) makes sense if viewed from the lens of "what if somebody did this stuff for real and blamed Literotica for it?"

Could somebody go out and have sex with dogs and horses, and then when caught claim that they got the idea from reading stories here? Yes, absolutely, if Literotica allowed that kind of story. Whether or not the claim is actually true, it could still get Lit caught up in a moral panic.

Could somebody go out and have sex with Cerberus or a unicorn, and then blame Literotica? That might be a bit harder.

This is also consistent with some other aspects of Literotica story policy. For instance, the rules on violence and death during sex tend to be enforced a bit more strictly for "realistic" stories than for those involving sex demons or carnivorous plants that thrill while they kill.

With under-age, there is an additional consideration. Child abusers have a tendency to form networks, in order to trade files and access to victims. I suspect that any forum which were to host child-abuse stories and which offers a private messaging function, as Literotica does, would be a very attractive place for those networks to develop, which is just about the last thing any of us wants.

This principle falls down when we get to the NC category. But even there, Literotica has taken steps in that direction - in the early days of the site there was an "Extreme" category which included outright snuff/torture content, and Literotica has ditched that and put some restrictions on what can be posted to NC.

 

[Lucy_Lastic]

This is pure speculation on my part, I haven't seen any official statement on the matter, but a lot of the content policy (not all) makes sense if viewed from the lens of "what if somebody did this stuff for real and blamed Literotica for it?"

Everything always is about culpability. Its not about stopping something happening, its about covering one's arse when it does.

 

[Bianca_P]

I

This is pure speculation on my part, I haven't seen any official statement on the matter, but a lot of the content policy (not all) makes sense if viewed from the lens of "what if somebody did this stuff for real and blamed Literotica for it?"

Could somebody go out and have sex with dogs and horses, and then when caught claim that they got the idea from reading stories here? Yes, absolutely, if Literotica allowed that kind of story. Whether or not the claim is actually true, it could still get Lit caught up in a moral panic.

Could somebody go out and have sex with Cerberus or a unicorn, and then blame Literotica? That might be a bit harder.

This is also consistent with some other aspects of Literotica story policy. For instance, the rules on violence and death during sex tend to be enforced a bit more strictly for "realistic" stories than for those involving sex demons or carnivorous plants that thrill while they kill.

With under-age, there is an additional consideration. Child abusers have a tendency to form networks, in order to trade files and access to victims. I suspect that any forum which were to host child-abuse stories and which offers a private messaging function, as Literotica does, would be a very attractive place for those networks to develop, which is just about the last thing any of us wants.

This principle falls down when we get to the NC category. But even there, Literotica has taken steps in that direction - in the early days of the site there was an "Extreme" category which included outright snuff/torture content, and Literotica has ditched that and put some restrictions on what can be posted to NC.

Interesting take and not an angle I'd considered.

However, the same logic isn't applied to non-consensual/rape, which I find curious. I would much rather a heroine recall her first time being felt up at fifteen, in context of course, than an adult woman being tied up against her will and used by her husband's baseball mates.

Maybe that's just me.

 

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

A question about the underage sex prohibition. In an upcoming story of mine, 39-year-old protagonist meets and marries a 24-year-old woman, after a several months of romance and lots of sex. The woman has a 2-year-old-daughter by a previous relationship. The daughter does not it anyway participate but becomes aware over time that something grown-up do a) makes them happy b) involves "lots and lots of kisses", and c) can make noise. She has no other awareness of sexuality apart from those vague generalities, and an idea that her mom and new dad "make each other happy." (Which they of course do non-sexually as well.) This is an important part of the daughter's character development, and part of her knowledge of how secure the love between her parents is, something that is quite important to a child. Also, at six, her mom was pregnant with her younger brother, and she was peppering mom and dad with questions about it. The questions asked and the answers given were not detailed, only stated they were asked and answered. By the end of the story, she is 27, well-adjusted, has a rewarding career, is happily married to a devoted stay-at-home dad, and pregnant with their second child.

I would hate to have to cut any of this. It's my hope that I don't have to. The story is a fictionalized autobiography until my alter-ego romances the female lead. IRL, we were mutually attracted, but I never acted on it, one of my might-have-been relationships. Writing it has been healing, I'm working through childhood trauma at 66. I'd like to see it published. Comments and advice, please?

 

[AchtungNight]

Are you saying there is a six year old pregnant in your story? That sounds like a physical impossibility. Maybe I’m just confused.

 

[Djmac1031]

A question about the underage sex prohibition. In an upcoming story of mine, 39-year-old protagonist meets and marries a 24-year-old woman, after a several months of romance and lots of sex. The woman has a 2-year-old-daughter by a previous relationship. The daughter does not it anyway participate but becomes aware over time that something grown-up do a) makes them happy b) involves "lots and lots of kisses", and c) can make noise. She has no other awareness of sexuality apart from those vague generalities, and an idea that her mom and new dad "make each other happy." (Which they of course do non-sexually as well.) This is an important part of the daughter's character development, and part of her knowledge of how secure the love between her parents is, something that is quite important to a child. Also, at six, her mom was pregnant with her younger brother, and she was peppering mom and dad with questions about it. The questions asked and the answers given were not detailed, only stated they were asked and answered. By the end of the story, she is 27, well-adjusted, has a rewarding career, is happily married to a devoted stay-at-home dad, and pregnant with their second child.

I would hate to have to cut any of this. It's my hope that I don't have to. The story is a fictionalized autobiography until my alter-ego romances the female lead. IRL, we were mutually attracted, but I never acted on it, one of my might-have-been relationships. Writing it has been healing, I'm working through childhood trauma at 66. I'd like to see it published. Comments and advice, please?

I understand your intent here and it seems innocent enough.

That said, you will need to tread VERY lightly.

The child can't be in the same room during a sex experience. Can't actually witness anything.

As for hearing "noises?" Questionable.

So is seeing "lots and lots of kisses." Is that ALL their seeing? Kisses?

You're tip toeing along a fine line as far as the rules go.

Just be prepared to edit.

 

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

I can edit around her hearing as required, it's not plot-critical. She always is in another room or another location. I can stress the adequacy of the sound proofing, and that she is a sound sleeper. All she ever sees is kissing--nothing whatever else. It will affect the plot negatively if the only expression of love she is aware of is loving words. All kissing in her presence is chaste to the outward appearance, though surely not in intent. The cental idea is that she is aware in a very general sense that something special is happening between adults who love each other that doesn't happen between random adults (as far as she knows), with no inkling what it is.

I can do some rewrites before I submit, I not going to waste a 20,000-word story. This story is particularly important to me. The earlier parts are a highly fictionalized autobiography, the rest is an alternate history--how life could have unfolded had I acted on the possibly mutual attraction I had towards a younger woman at computer school. Her 2-year-old daughter was scary smart. By the way, in the author's notes, I express my opinion that Viking's blood eagle execution method is too merciful for pedos.

Thank you djmac1031 for your very helpful feedback.

 

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

Are you saying there is a six year old pregnant in your story? That sounds like a physical impossibility. Maybe I’m just confused.

Forgive my lack of clarity. The child was six when her mother was pregnant with the child's younger brother.

 

[LegendInMyOwnMind]

I toned it down so the child never hears anything and only sees chaste kissing between adults who are in relationships. Lip to lip but no tongue, not touching erotic body parts, no moaning, and so on. The little she does see is somewhat important to her character development--it gives her assurance beyond words of her mother's and stepfather's deep romantic relationship so that she need not fear losing her new family. A major worry as her bio-dad left before she was born. The rather intense eroticism underneath the romance escapes her notice. She has no understanding of what goes on in adult "alone time" beyond "lots and lots of kisses", not recognizing how different it is from the child-like kisses she's familiar with.

I have submitted, writing a note to Laurel similar to the above. Hopefully, Laurel does not require me to cut these scenes, though I can if I must. I will not lose a 20,000-word story that had me nearly frying my keyboard five or six times with tears. BTW, in the author's notes, I state my opinion that the Vikings' perhaps legendary execution method the blood eagle is too merciful for pedos. I told the story that inspiration gave me, without giving those damnable sub-humans inspiration. As MC says, "I would kill any man who hurts her, including myself."

IMHO, the non-erotic relationships between the various characters are the best I've written.