Underage incest fantasys

[tickledkitty]

I am still going to claim devil's advocacy here, I can think of a hundred story lines where it is beneficial for an abused teen girl to be disabused, in a sense by a gentle experienced older man.

ami

And not a bit self-serving. For the gentle, experienced, older man, I mean.

 

[slyc_willie]

I am still going to claim devil's advocacy here, I can think of a hundred story lines where it is beneficial for an abused teen girl to be disabused, in a sense by a gentle experienced older man.

ami

I'm not going to call you a dirty old man. You know I wouldn't do that.

I can absolutely agree that a positive sexual experience can be had between a minor and an adult. Suppose someone wrote a story about nice Mr. Johnson across the hall seducing (or being seduced by) cute little Nikki. The problem I would have with a story like that is that there are quite a few men out there who fantasize about such loving and consensual experiences with a minor girl. Such a story could make those men think that seducing the underaged girl next door is all right.

 

[amicus]

ms.read...that is a lovely photo of snow on the roof, just lovely, thank you.

However...I think your own words define you as both a zealot and an ostrich, regardless of your disclaimers.

There are, no doubt, people who abuse children and I do not condone that in the least and feel as you do, that they should be punished to the full extent.

But I am not blind to the facts that human sexuality begins long before the magical 18th birthday.

Since I think you are well read then I will not posit ignorance of history but a choice to ignore that very young girls have always been given in marriage to older, sometimes very old men, or instructed in sexual activities by a family member while still very young. These things were not just perversions or abuse or cruelty and your indignation and revulsion has, I would suggest other, deeper roots than an intellectual conclusion.

Again, as a devil's advocate, (you should see the fur fly when I pretend to be a socialist or a modern liberal on other forums), I suggest an entire realm of fiction writing about introducing young girls to sexual delights is totally ignored, in part, because of the new womens liberation movement that classifies all men as evil animals, with only one thing on their minds.

Food for thought perhaps?

ami

 

[slyc_willie]

Again, as a devil's advocate, (you should see the fur fly when I pretend to be a socialist or a modern liberal on other forums), I suggest an entire realm of fiction writing about introducing young girls to sexual delights is totally ignored, in part, because of the new womens liberation movement that classifies all men as evil animals, with only one thing on their minds.

Food for thought perhaps?

ami

Getting a little hasty with the generalizations, there, ami.

What, exactly, is the point of a story about a young girl being introduced to 'sexual delights?' If not to sexualize a girl who is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old, then what? To prove that older men can be the best sexual instructors? That sounds a tad like rationalization to me.

 

[amicus]

TK, slyc...let us just suppose...for the sake of conversation...that through experiences, an older man is surprised at the number of adult women who have been traumatized by underage sex from boys their own age.

Since statistics indicate that about one in four girls underwent non consensual sex before age 18, it follows that many adult women carry with them the inhibitions of a bad early experience.

I think this is an area worth exploring for a writer attempting to understand human sexual nature and events that shape a persons life.

Even though I continue to claim devil's advocacy here, I sense you are attempt to impute a motive to my thoughts and I suppose that is only natural, you want to attack the person, not the issue, which is common fare on this forum.

I suggest that the history of what you call under age sex, is so vast disproving your stance that you either ignore the past or are not aware of it.

Amicus....

 

[slyc_willie]

TK, slyc...let us just suppose...for the sake of conversation...that through experiences, an older man is surprised at the number of adult women who have been traumatized by underage sex from boys their own age.

Since statistics indicate that about one in four girls underwent non consential sex before age 18, it follows that many adult women carry with them the inhibitions of a bad early experience.

I think this is an area worth exploring for a writer attempting to understand human sexual nature and events that shape a persons life.

Even though I continue to claim devil's advocacy here, I sense you are attempt to impute a motive to my thoughts and I suppose that is only natural, you want to attack the person, not the issue, which is common fare on this forum.

I suggest that the history of what you call under age sex, is so vast disproving your stance that you either ignore the past or are not aware of it.

Amicus....

Not attacking you, ami. Just having a conversation. I want to know what you think.

So . . . one in four women have undergone a traumatic sexual experience before the age of eighteen. Personally, I think it's actually closer to one in three. But again, what's the point of writing a story about an older man and an underaged girl?

Type in the name "Lolita" on Google and see what kind of responses you get. Nabokov wrote a very interesting and enlightening novel, but his work unintentionally created a new designation for sexualizing young girls.

 

[amicus]

Getting a little hasty with the generalizations, there, ami.

What, exactly, is the point of a story about a young girl being introduced to 'sexual delights?' If not to sexualize a girl who is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old, then what? To prove that older men can be the best sexual instructors? That sounds a tad like rationalization to me.

~~~

Of course it is a generalization, slyc, I fully acknowledge that, but hasty? No, not at all, a long held opinion.

Rather than argue with my presentation of that side of the issue, why not take on past societies in which it was a normal practice for very young girls to be introduced to sex by older male members of the community.

It was also standard practice to take the young healthy girls from orphanages on the wagon trains across the west to become wives for the male settlers and trappers that were without women on the frontier. Young and healthy survived the journey and could even help along the way.

Girls used to become women and mothers long before age fifteen in much of rural america and other parts of the world and were even considered spinsters at age eighteen if not already married.

ami

 

[slyc_willie]

~~~

Of course it is a generalization, slyc, I fully acknowledge that, but hasty? No, not at all, a long held opinion.

Rather than argue with my presentation of that side of the issue, why not take on past societies in which it was a normal practice for very young girls to be introduced to sex by older male members of the community.

It was also standard practice to take the young healthy girls from orphanages on the wagon trains across the west to become wives for the male settlers and trappers that were without women on the frontier. Young and healthy survived the journey and could even help along the way.

Girls used to become women and mothers long before age fifteen in much of rural america and other parts of the world and were even considered spinsters at age eighteen if not already married.

ami

Which does nothing to say that they were emotionally prepared for those roles, or to understand the stress and distress associated with sex. Just because it was done, and still is in some societies, does not make it morally right.

In most such situations, girls were married off soon after menstruation began, because it meant they could have children. During such times, it was known and accepted that not every child survived to adulthood. To insure the continuation of the family line, and to make sure there were enough hands to till the fields and such, girls were encouraged to be wed and bred. I doubt little attention was given to whether or not they actually enjoyed the sex.

 

[amicus]

slyc...good points, I too think it is more than one in four, but I didn't have the research and hand and was generous to a fault in not sledgehammering my point that millions of girl are raped every year in the US, many very young, not even close to that magical eighteen.

And for writer's not to write about it, I think, is a travesty.

Since much of that is within the family, then the thread title, including, incestial, also plays a very large role and should be explored, so many girls are molested if not raped, by fathers and grandfathers and brothers and uncles and mothers boyfriends, it is a wonder to me they ever regain the ability to enjoy a pleasurable sexual life. I have a series of stories along those lines.

I also wish Nobakov (sp) and Lolita, had not been mentioned, the film was awful the book not much better, the girl was a slut, so was her mother and the perp, hell, who knows what he was supposed to represent.

I just truly hate censorship of any kind and to listen to my righteous colleagues on the forum decry even the thought, disturbs me.

amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

slyc...good points, I too think it is more than one in four, but I didn't have the research and hand and was generous to a fault in not sledgehammering my point that millions of girl are raped every year in the US, many very young, not even close to that magical eighteen.

And for writer's not to write about it, I think, is a travesty.

Since much of that is within the family, then the thread title, including, incestial, also plays a very large role and should be explored, so many girls are molested if not raped, by fathers and grandfathers and brothers and uncles and mothers boyfriends, it is a wonder to me they ever regain the ability to enjoy a pleasurable sexual life. I have a series of stories along those lines.

I also wish Nobakov (sp) and Lolita, had not been mentioned, the film was awful the book not much better, the girl was a slut, so was her mother and the perp, hell, who knows what he was supposed to represent.

I just truly hate censorship of any kind and to listen to my righteous colleagues on the forum decry even the thought, disturbs me.

amicus...

I've known more than a few women who, as girls, were abused by male family members. Not once had I heard from a woman that she enjoyed a consensual sexual relationship with her father, brother, uncle, whatever. Given the vast amounts of such stories and cases in the world, I can't help but think that any sexual encounter between an older man and a minor girl to whom he is related would be emotionally harmful, and not at all enjoyable for the young lady.

I am not advocating censorship. Rather, shall we say, a 'tasteful differentiation.' Someone wants to write about daddy popping his little girl's cherry? Go right ahead. But I won't be reading it, and I'm glad it won't be posted on Lit.

Regarding 'Lolita,' I'll admit that I only read half of it, and never saw either of the movies.

 

[amicus]

Which does nothing to say that they were emotionally prepared for those roles, or to understand the stress and distress associated with sex. Just because it was done, and still is in some societies, does not make it morally right.

In most such situations, girls were married off soon after menstruation began, because it meant they could have children. During such times, it was known and accepted that not every child survived to adulthood. To insure the continuation of the family line, and to make sure there were enough hands to till the fields and such, girls were encouraged to be wed and bred. I doubt little attention was given to whether or not they actually enjoyed the sex.

~~~

At the risk of offending, slyc, I suggest perhaps a little feminization of thought has entered your repertoire.

That women were even capable of enjoying sex is a rather recent proposition, note I chose that word carefully.

I hesitate to even suggest this as the suggestion will imply knowledge and thus personal experience and I am trying to avoid that and remain in my role of devil's advocate to elicit thoughts.

Let us note instead that much of the anecdotal research documented by Freud, Kinsey and others, suggested that women do not enjoy sexual intercourse to the degree that men do. That they achieve fulfillment not by orgasm but by completion, by giving, by taking, by feeling wanted and desired and that is sufficient for many.

Perhaps this belated concern concerning the pleasure a woman experiences from sexual intercourse, overlooks the basic evolutionary reason for the activity, that of procreation and nature does not require pleasure from the female, just sufficient lubrication for penetration.

Now one might full well enjoy making a lady squeal amd sqeak in sexual pleasure but in the scheme of things, it is not a necessary ingredient.

But, sighs, I digress, but only to illustrate that perhaps pleasure to the underage female means more than sexual pleasure, being pregnant, being desired and wanted is a social status perhaps only earned in that manner, young or old.

amicus...

 

[amicus]

slyc...seems like we are the only ones pursuing this and that was not my intent.

Not to push my own stories, but I am about to publish my "Billy" series of stories, all about young girls, currently posted on Lit. before I remove the novel, perhaps you might peruse and perhaps change your mind about my intentions in writing of such things.

Of course to suit the site, all the girls are eighteen or older, but many issues that I have listened to from internet friends all over the world are discussed and presented in fictional form and you may find it interesting.

Or you may think I am just an old pervert, your choice.

amicus...

 

[slyc_willie]

~~~

At the risk of offending, slyc, I suggest perhaps a little feminization of thought has entered your repertoire.

That women were even capable of enjoying sex is a rather recent proposition, note I chose that word carefully.

I hesitate to even suggest this as the suggestion will imply knowledge and thus personal experience and I am trying to avoid that and remain in my role of devil's advocate to elicit thoughts.

Let us note instead that much of the anecdotal research documented by Freud, Kinsey and others, suggested that women do not enjoy sexual intercourse to the degree that men do. That they achieve fulfillment not by orgasm but by completion, by giving, by taking, by feeling wanted and desired and that is sufficient for many.

Perhaps this belated concern concerning the pleasure a woman experiences from sexual intercourse, overlooks the basic evolutionary reason for the activity, that of procreation and nature does not require pleasure from the female, just sufficient lubrication for penetration.

Now one might full well enjoy making a lady squeal amd sqeak in sexual pleasure but in the scheme of things, it is not a necessary ingredient.

But, sighs, I digress, but only to illustrate that perhaps pleasure to the underage female means more than sexual pleasure, being pregnant, being desired and wanted is a social status perhaps only earned in that manner, young or old.

amicus...

I concede that you have a good point. And I am not the least bit insulted that some of my thinking is, indeed, 'feminized.'

In a broad stroke, men and women do see sex differently. In general terms, men concentrate on the orgasm, women on the coupling, the closeness. But I still cannot accept that as a reason or rationale to introduce sex to girls.

When I was growing up, like every other boy I knew, I was curious about sex. I remember kissing my first girlfriend when I was seven years old. And not just little pecks. We explored the different ways to kiss. By the time I was eleven, I had seen a girl's breasts. By fourteen, I had gone as far as a boy and girl could go without actually losing my virginity.

The difference between my experiences -- which, I believe, were more or less typical for my generation -- and the experience of a young girl and an older man is that there was always this idea of nervous anticipation, of only going as far as we were willing to go. Peer pressure only went so far; when it was me and her, alone, we were ruled by what I believe to be the standards and mores we had been taught by our parents. If we went further than one of us was willing to go, we stopped. Period.

And older man who desires a young girl, I feel, would be more persuasive, perhaps even coercive, and induce the girl into going further than she was ready to go.

 

[slyc_willie]

slyc...seems like we are the only ones pursuing this and that was not my intent.

Not to push my own stories, but I am about to publish my "Billy" series of stories, all about young girls, currently posted on Lit. before I remove the novel, perhaps you might peruse and perhaps change your mind about my intentions in writing of such things.

Of course to suit the site, all the girls are eighteen or older, but many issues that I have listened to from internet friends all over the world are discussed and presented in fictional form and you may find it interesting.

Or you may think I am just an old pervert, your choice.

amicus...

I think I may just do that.

Old? Definitely.

"Pervert" is subjective.

 

[keeblercrumb]

I am still going to claim devil's advocacy here, I can think of a hundred story lines where it is beneficial for an abused teen girl to be disabused, in a sense by a gentle experienced older man.

ami

And the devil I may be as well......

So let us define the discussion.....

If we are discussing a rational legal "age" of consent, I would suggest that it correspond a hell of a lot closer to puberty than current law. We have seen and continue to see at an increasing rate of absurd prosecutions for consensual sex between those over and under the magical, mystical age of 18....

We have 14 y/o's being criminalized for having sex with 13 y/yo's.... we have 22 y/o's criminalized for sex with 17 y/o's ad nauseum....

This, in my opinion, flies in the face of reality and nature. And anytime we have laws which do so, it is an automatic prescription for arbitrary and selective persecutions...

I encourage parents and teachers and clergy and anyone involved in adolescent education and interaction to communicate with their charges about the dangers and problems with relationships (emotional OR sexual) with older individuals... But guess what? You will be ignored.....

Adolescents will do it anyway, just like you and I did..... If you don't think so, you have not had a 14 y/yo child yet.....

The current laws and cultural opinions on this subject are the vestiges of our puritanical past..... And our culturally imposed "guilt" over our own adolescent behavior…

And that is my opinion....



-KC

 

[amicus]

Well, I oughta leave the young girl alone, but ain't no sunshine when she's gone..." sighs...

Your personal remembrances are precious indeed and I respect them as such but I wish to add something because it came to mind after I read what you wrote.

I, ahm, surmise, yes, surmise, that passion and lust raise their lovely heads in both boy and girl under those circumstances. Since we all write about sex on this forum I will assume that everyone knows the mechanics of blood flow from the cognitive areas to the erogenous zones when foreplay begins.

I wouldn't begin to surmise at what approximate age the female body begins to fantasize lust and passion to the extent of losing mental focus on the rights and wrongs of actions but simply seeks satisfaction or release, perhaps a female lurker would venture an opinion.

I mean to suggest by that, that when ever two humans, attracted to each other find themselves in close proximity and hearts are pounding and pulses racing, I wonder if 'age' of either even enters into what is left of the thought process at that moment?

While your personal revelations indicated a degree of control and thought and choice as to proceed or not, I suggest some do not possess that degree of control when passions rise.

I wrote a rape story that turned into an incest story, that I have not as yet published anywhere that explored the idea that the female, by nature, does not have the option of responding when aroused. I extended that to the taboo of brother /'sister incest, to explore how a loving brother might provide solace to an abused sister, in ways that surprised both of them, and even the author as the story took on a life of its own in the writing.

And, devil's advocate or not, I sincerely doubt that passion awaits that magical date of eighteen years of age. Although I cannot attest as to just how early it does occur, I am open to suggestions...



amicus..

 

[starrkers]

Coming in late here. I haven't read Ms Read's comments - her sig pic is screwing with the screen width to the point of annoyance for me.
Disclaimer, I was abused (but not raped) by an older family member as a child.

In some ways I agree with Amicus - underage sex should be discussed, it should even be discussed as to why older men might like the idea of "teaching" a girl. My problem comes in here - sorry Ami, but I highly doubt the vast majority of men interested in underage girls have an ultruistic motive. They are not interested in the girl's development or future comfort with her sexuality.

It is because of these men that the topic is so taboo. And I for one would rather it remain so than these perverse old bastards be given a chance to get their jollies, however vicariously. Because of them, this topic needs to remain clinical and dispassionate in the extreme, and therefore has absolutely no place on a site that exists totally for sexual titillation and gratification.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Children who are having sex between themselves, should NOT BE HAVING SEX AT ALL. It is the Gaurdian's responsibility to make sure that this does not occur. There should not be any ACCIDENTAL PREGNANCIES OR BIRTHS. to people under the age of consent. ITS DISGUSTING.

I think that chastity belts should be used on minors that have reached puberty, until they have reached thier eighteenth birthday.

Good lord! I would have had to kill you if you'd come at me with one, back when I was sixteen. You might as well have whistled for the moon as to try to stop me from having sex.

I agree with you, ms.read, about preventing accidental pregnancies-- but I advocate doing that by teaching teens about birth control and safe sex, and making sure those options are available to those that wish them. Chastity belts? Stupid. Period.

...her sig pic is screwing with the screen width to the point of annoyance for me.

Starrkers, I had a couple people on ignore because their sigs were so huge and annoying. Finally, I gave up-- I went into options and chose not to view sigs at all... I can see them by clicking on the username if i want. Just a suggestion, you understand

 

[amicus]

KC...an interesting and thoughtful post...can't much disagree with anything you said.

But the unspoken conclusion does leave room for inquiry and demands a reply, in kind, if I may.

In the US at least, it is indeed a 'puritanical' background, but I sense a pejorative use of the word and I do mildly object to that.

This three hundred year old democracy has always been fraught with peril, resting as it does upon the will of the people and the ballot box.

A messy affair at best.

My conflict, with almost everyone on this forum, is basically that all wish to challenge and destroy the status quo of, "of, by and for the people" with a more rigid set of rules, or even worse, no moral or ethical principles at all.

When prohibition was chosen through the democratic process, it was an error that took a long time to address; but, eventually, it was, in varying degrees.

Quite so, with almost every moral and ethical tenet of this republic/democracy, the people, in their wisdom, or lack of it, do in fact, decide.

There has always been a huge moral and ethical battle ongoing in America; that is the nature of our government, of the people who are citizens here and participate in such things and only about half do.

28 states have now outlawed same sex marriage, 36 states authorized capital punishment, the death penalty, both are continually in contention and controversial.

That is how our moral decisions are made, by the will of the people.

The pendulum swings periodically and so it always will as long as people have the freedom to express and realize their freedoms.

Such a deal, eh?

amicus...

 

[emap]

I am going to agree with Starrkers, sorry I wasn't around, spent the last five hours waiting for the virus checker to go through a scan in safe mode. Didn't work either dangit, I shall have to do a search for a specific remover.

Anyway, I have no problem in younger than 18 women or men sleeping with each other or slightly older lovers. When I lost my virginity we all went to school together, I did enjoy myself mind. I was pressured of course, they were right there waiting for me to say yes, though I have to admit the actual notion was very appealing.

I have a problem with much older lovers taking a young person under their wing as the saying goes and supposedly teaching them about sex. Which honestly men usually don't do, I had to alot of trial and error to get good, every guy I slept with, while at least partially sober learned a few things.

So while I have no problem discussing a 14-18 year old having sex, younger with a hand over my face so I don't puke. I do have a very big problem discussing sex with a 14-18 year old and a much older person. I have to admit older men more than older women.

Oh yeah, part of the problem we are having with underage pregnancy is the simple fact of the hormones that end up in the milk. They are used to age beef faster along with live longer in the case of the milk cows which all ends up in the milk that we are drinking. I can't tell you how many times I have to do a double take when I see a young lady who I think is 14-15 only to realize that she is actually 11 or 10. I'm not sure if it is true, but I recall hearing about the average age of puberty lowering to 11 and some as young as 7 I think it was going into puberty. If that keeps up we are not only going to have to lower the age of consent we are going to have to look at what we are giving the cows and find a new way of doing it that does not end up affecting people.

Oh yeah, I feel old compared to the new kids going into puberty but I was 13 when it started. I started having sexual thoughts and fantasies at 14, along with some play. Not easy to do in a little house with thin walls but I did manage many times before I had sex the first time. I was never actually caught, well i was interupted several times, but I was always careful to get under the covers when I was going to do that. Managed to pass it off as wanting a nap or a cold breeze.

 

[amicus]

Coming in late here. I haven't read Ms Read's comments - her sig pic is screwing with the screen width to the point of annoyance for me.
Disclaimer, I was abused (but not raped) by an older family member as a child.

In some ways I agree with Amicus - underage sex should be discussed, it should even be discussed as to why older men might like the idea of "teaching" a girl. My problem comes in here - sorry Ami, but I highly doubt the vast majority of men interested in underage girls have an ultruistic motive. They are not interested in the girl's development or future comfort with her sexuality.

It is because of these men that the topic is so taboo. And I for one would rather it remain so than these perverse old bastards be given a chance to get their jollies, however vicariously. Because of them, this topic needs to remain clinical and dispassionate in the extreme, and therefore has absolutely no place on a site that exists totally for sexual titillation and gratification.

~~~

Hello staarkers...nice of you to contribute...

As an aside, I noted that there are over 800 visits but only about 40 comments, usually the ratio is about six or seven to one, so unless the 'visits' are remnants of the earlier thread, (this was started back in 2000), then a lot are following the conversation but not joining...dunno...

Staarkers...I don't question your perspective and even mostly agree with your conclusion, but not to the extent of banning, prohibiting or making taboo, discussions and even stories on the issue.

Romance novels in general are almost all total fantasies, not related to real life at all, but dreams that keep bored housewives dreaming of a Knight on White Horse, taking them away from the drudgery of a mundane life. (not my conclusion, but a general one)

I won't nickle and dime anyone to death as those like Pure do, by asking what about seventeen years, eleven months and thirty days...being still a minor and illegal, except to emphasize that age eighteen is an arbitrary age, a political decision that does not take the individual human into consideration.

I have met and known fourteen year old girls who are already more woman and more mature than some thirty year old women I have bedded.

I was seventeen years old,in the navy and off to war and still a minor too young to drink or fuck, imagine that?

Not regarding your thoughts about men in general who lust after young girls, I think most men, of any age, are putty in the hands of a female, at any age, who knows how to manipulate a man or a boy.

geez this devil's advocacy is kinda fun, no one really knows what the hell I think, I am a fiction writer after all...(insert smiley here, it ain't workin)

amicus...

 

[starrkers]

Not regarding your thoughts about men in general who lust after young girls, I think most men, of any age, are putty in the hands of a female, at any age, who knows how to manipulate a man or a boy.

Therein lies the problem of older men and girls - young teen girls may be able to manipulate young teen boys (in fact I have exactly no doubt that they do!) but that does not work in the young teen girl/older man equation. The relative sexual maturity and knowledge of each is too disparate for it ever to be a fair fight.

But perhaps that's what you are saying - girls have the upper hand in same age manipulation, so the older man/younger girl scenario is just evening up the score? Ooh, but that is seeping into the "sick" category. I certainly hope that's not your intended path.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...and supposedly teaching them about sex.Which honestly men usually don't do, I had to alot of trial and error to get good, every guy I slept with, ...learned a few things.

*applauds* YES! And it's funny, emap, I don't think I've ever heard that said in such plain language.

Yep, no one man can teach a woman all about sex, any more than one coach can teach a man all about tennis.

What one man can do, is teach a woman all about the sex that pleases him-- which is nice for him, of course, but may or may not please her.

If your woman feels that the best thing about sex is That they achieve fulfillment not by orgasm but by completion, by giving, by taking, by feeling wanted and desired and that is sufficient for many.... I'm afraid that bodes not well for you, gentlemen. Because those things might be nice, but an orgasm trumps them all. As you well know, after all. And when by some accident she actually experiences the whole-hog real thing, well-- remember how that felt to you, buddy? Like the answer to the Kozmik Kwestion. Buh-bye giving- gimme!

And Freud went to his grave still wondering what women really want...

 

[emap]

Well you never know, ami is weird after all.

 

[starrkers]

Not running away - dammit, I gotta cook for the tribe. I'll be back later.