Super Hero Parallels with Erotica

[EroticCupcake]

I think of Good (and Bad) super hero stories as having the same structural issues as erotica. Action movies where characters punch each other until someone wins are arbitrary and boring. I think of erotica as the same. A super hot sex scene can play the same role as a big set piece in an action movie, but fundamentally what matters for story is how sex impacts relationships.

The best (for example) Spiderman stories are tragedies, where he defeats some supervillain but the cost is paid in his damaged relationships. All the stakes are in the relationships between characters. Ideally, the sex itself (i.e. action / fight scenes) should be impacting character or relationships.

When I look at some of my writing that I like but don't love, it is where character / relationships are being advanced, but the sex itself is not driving it. If I look harder and find writing I don't even like, it is probably where no character / relationship is being advanced.

I also think about how "character" is separate from sex (i.e. super powers in this metaphor). The best super hero movies find their resolution in something specific to the character, outside of their super power. The Rocketeer is my go to example of this (using gum to sabotage the jetpack).

As I keep writing, I'm generally heading toward one of two resolutions:
A) Character explores some new aspect of sex life. The super power (i.e. sex) is integrated with character, allowing conflict to be resolved.
B) Rejecting the new aspect of the character's sex life. Conflict is resolved by rediscovering their true character and rejecting the crazy sex.

As I type this, I realize this may be "Story 101" stuff. But going through this exercise helped me find a problem in something I'm writing. I'm writing a Husband / Wife story. Husband is exploring some part of his sexuality, and wife is generally supportive. Husband's emotional stakes are between himself and his wife.

I realized the wife doesn't have enough going on. If she's generally supportive from the get go, there is no tension / arc for her. I don't want her arc to be accept or reject husband. I need to add another relationship for her in the story. Even if she absolutely supports her husband, there has to be some cost to pay or impact somewhere else in her life.

 

[mpeters]

Ok, I’m going to be “that guy” and point out there’s a hyphen in Spider-Man.

But I see what you’re trying to say, but as I write my stories here I do what I can to keep all of it interesting.

 

[Euphony]

As I type this, I realize this may be "Story 101" stuff. But going through this exercise helped me find a problem in something I'm writing.

It is but so what?

Learning is as much or more about framing than it is the material or a natural understanding of the concepts.

So much of what we "learn" in story craft is modernized, repackaged lessons from drier predecessor books or just a novel way to spark curiosity (depending on how back you go, text can be almost anti-curiorisity, as if once you crack open a book, willpower your way through or F off, you don't deserve the knowledge)

Go easy on yourself. Frame things how best works for you. If that's superheros, sports, anime, or Housewives of Beverly Hills, go fucking nuts.

This hobby is especially fraught with doubters, downers, and overall miserable to interact with people (think of how much we are sold misery is the only way to good art) don't add your own inner voice to the chorus.

Be kind to yourself, always.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I realized the wife doesn't have enough going on. If she's generally supportive from the get go, there is no tension / arc for her. I don't want her arc to be accept or reject husband. I need to add another relationship for her in the story. Even if she absolutory support her husband, there has to be some cost to pay or impact somewhere else in her life.

Maybe, but there's more than one way to skin a cat (get skin to skin with Catwoman...no, I'm reaching with that pun)

One thing I've realized here is that some stories set out with catharsis in mind. It's perfectly okay to have a story where the MC admits to a fetish, the wife listens, they do it and nothing bad happens. There's nothing wrong with a story where honesty ends up with the relationship becoming stronger.

Boring? Not if done right and some people really benefit from reading stories with that approach.

 

[HeyAll]

Overall I agree. I've always thought that one of the most underrated aspects of great erotica is that the main character must have a goal outside of the sex. If i'm working on a story and i like the idea but it doesn't feel hot enough, i remind myself of this rule and give the character a goal, it always helps fix the problem.

 

[AchtungNight]

Can’t ignore the fact that erotica and comics have a lot in common as far as people in skintight clothing showing off their bodies and chasing each other through crazy situations. There’s also people wondering about the sexual habits of superheroes (“Can _every_ part of Mr. Fantastic’s body stretch? Does Kitty Pryde phase out of her clothing before shagging Colossus?” Etc) and trivia like the fact that Wonder Woman was created by a polyamorous trio into bondage games.

 

[alohadave]

The problem with most comics and comic movies is that there is no consequences from fights. Hero and Villain fight, there is no clear winner and there are no injuries, they go about their day and fight again at some point in the future.

There is no point to the fights other than to quip at each other or to monologue their plans at each other. There are no stakes to the fights, so they are pointless. If you remove the fight and nothing is really changed, then it serves no purpose narratively.

You can say the same for many sex scenes. Plot stuff happens, sex happens, plot stuff resumes. If removing the sex scene doesn't affect the story, then it's superfluous, and is just for titillation.

If you want a cohesive story, the fight/sex scenes should have consequences to the story that make them essential. If you just want a stroker/fight porn, toss in sex/fight scenes that are simple inserts.

 

[KachinaDoll]

You may think that I'm odd, hubby certainly thinks I am, but I just don't 'get' superhero films and I've never read a comic book. For me, a film or story has to have a degree of believability. Even sci-fi and space stuff could happen somewhere out there, but a guy with an office job who puts on a tight costume and can leap buildings or shoot spiderwebs from his fingers? Nah, sorry.

 

[EroticCupcake]

The problem with most comics and comic movies is that there is no consequences from fights. Hero and Villain fight, there is no clear winner and there are no injuries, they go about their day and fight again at some point in the future.

There is no point to the fights other than to quip at each other or to monologue their plans at each other. There are no stakes to the fights, so they are pointless. If you remove the fight and nothing is really changed, then it serves no purpose narratively.

You can say the same for many sex scenes. Plot stuff happens, sex happens, plot stuff resumes. If removing the sex scene doesn't affect the story, then it's superfluous, and is just for titillation.

If you want a cohesive story, the fight/sex scenes should have consequences to the story that make them essential. If you just want a stroker/fight porn, toss in sex/fight scenes that are simple inserts.

Yeah, you got to the point I was looking for. Stroker versus not-Stroker is a choice, but I should challenge myself to know the difference and not do something on accident.

One correct choice I made (maybe by accident) in a long dub-con story was give my FMC a roommate. The roommate genuinely cared for FMC. As the story got darker, the emotional impact for FMC was to second guess her roommate and push her away. This was much more effective than emotional development between FMC and the antagonist, and ended up being the emotional core of the story.

@TheRedChamber I also agree with your point, and the key difference is the intended length of the story.

Because I've been thinking about erotica in these terms (and trying to write longer stories), I find myself focusing on conflict and tension. I also half joke with myself that in real life, sex is mostly just good stuff and the stakes are "wow life is great."

I remember a time when a very attractive woman was driving me through the mountains on a rocky road. We weren't quite a thing yet, but we were super close. She was balancing her phone on her leg, trying to read the map while also not have it bounce on the floor. There was plenty of tension for me, trying to figure out exactly when I would be grabbing her phone / leg. A version of this would make an OK story, but it would probably be <5k words.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think of Good (and Bad) super hero stories as having the same structural issues as erotica. Action movies where characters punch each other until someone wins are arbitrary and boring. I think of erotica as the same. A super hot sex scene can play the same role as a big set piece in an action movie, but fundamentally what matters for story is how sex impacts relationships.

I like this framing, though I'd maybe broaden that to "people" instead of "relationships". Sometimes it's more about self-discovery than changing a relationship, especially in "brief encounter" kinds of stories.

I realized the wife doesn't have enough going on. If she's generally supportive from the get go, there is no tension / arc for her. I don't want her arc to be accept or reject husband. I need to add another relationship for her in the story. Even if she absolutely supports her husband, there has to be some cost to pay or impact somewhere else in her life.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship though - it could be something else that matters to her.

 

[Altissimus]

I love this analogy.

Everyone talks about the need for 'emotion' in stories, and that's absolutely right (barring robots and trips to the doctor's office... yet I'm sure there's no lack of either on Lit) but the how and why of the emotion are, at core, driven either by a) conflict, b) character progression, or - secret option c) - character progression catalysed by conflict. That's where stuff becomes 'hot', in my mind.

I always seem to pause in the middle of my sex scenes to relate some moment of angst, realisation, or awakening of my MC(s). Without this, the sex hasn't had an impact. Oh, sure, they could (and sometimes do) reflect back on it afterwards, and that's one option I suppose - but really good sex is an intensely emotional experience, and for me at least, it's difficult to envisage all those emotions being experienced without them provoking deeper feelings and epiphanies. That's what emotions are designed to do, innit?

 

[alohadave]

I love this analogy.

Everyone talks about the need for 'emotion' in stories, and that's absolutely right (barring robots and trips to the doctor's office... yet I'm sure there's no lack of either on Lit) but the how and why of the emotion are, at core, driven either by a) conflict, b) character progression, or - secret option c) - character progression catalysed by conflict. That's where stuff becomes 'hot', in my mind.

I always seem to pause in the middle of my sex scenes to relate some moment of angst, realisation, or awakening of my MC(s). Without this, the sex hasn't had an impact. Oh, sure, they could (and sometimes do) reflect back on it afterwards, and that's one option I suppose - but really good sex is an intensely emotional experience, and for me at least, it's difficult to envisage all those emotions being experienced without them provoking deeper feelings and epiphanies. That's what emotions are designed to do, innit?

I found this recently, and now I try to think about how conflict can amplify a story and give it real stakes for the characters.

https://johnaugust.com/2019/scriptnotes-ep-403-how-to-write-a-movie-transcript

I read another author a while back that made a comment that basically said, that without someone or something to push back against the main character, there isn't much of a story. The character needs a reason to fight for what they want, and there needs to be some threat of not achieving what they are trying to do. Even if you know that the protagonist 'wins' in the end, having a cost to the struggle makes the victory that much better.

 

[NoTalentHack]

You may think that I'm odd, hubby certainly thinks I am, but I just don't 'get' superhero films and I've never read a comic book. For me, a film or story has to have a degree of believability. Even sci-fi and space stuff could happen somewhere out there, but a guy with an office job who puts on a tight costume and can leap buildings or shoot spiderwebs from his fingers? Nah, sorry.

I don't wanna sit here and mansplain shit to you, especially if you don't want to hear it. However, if you do want more insight about it as both a cultural thing and a "why should I (maybe) give a fuck," I used to write for a comic book blog. I'm a huge fan of the genre, but I also get why some folks don't immediately connect with it.

I also wrote a fun superhero-themed teammates-to-lovers story for the most recent Geek Pride, if anyone wants to read it. Overcoming Burnout

 

[Altissimus]

I don't wanna sit here and mansplain shit to you, especially if you don't want to hear it. However, if you do want more insight about it as both a cultural thing and a "why should I (maybe) give a fuck," I used to write for a comic book blog. I'm a huge fan of the genre, but I also get why some folks don't immediately connect with it.

I also wrote a fun superhero-themed teammates-to-lovers story for the most recent Geek Pride, if anyone wants to read it. Overcoming Burnout

I don't like Horror. I just don't see the point. If I wanted horror, I'd have a two-year-old.

It's ok to skip on a genre, isn't it?

 

[NoTalentHack]

I don't like Horror. I just don't see the point. If I wanted horror, I'd have a two-year-old.

It's ok to skip on a genre, isn't it?

Of course! Not everything is for everyone. I sure as hell didn’t get the attraction of Harry Potter, for example. I do now, even if it’s never going to be a thing I seek out, because it doesn’t resonate with me. Just offering if she did want to “get it,” at least on an intellectual level.

 

[Altissimus]

Of course! Not everything is for everyone. I sure as hell didn’t get the attraction of Harry Potter, for example. I do now, even if it’s never going to be a thing I seek out, because it doesn’t resonate with me. Just offering if she did want to “get it,” at least on an intellectual level.

You... you... don't like Harry Potter...?

You're dead to me.

Clicks ignore.

Actually, to be fair I appreciated HP when it first came out, but now I'm only really interested in Hermione.

 

[TheRedChamber]

You... you... don't like Harry Potter...?

You're dead to me.

Clicks ignore.

Actually, to be fair I appreciated HP when it first came out, but now I'm only really interested in Hermione.

For what it's worth, I'll go further than NTH and state that I actively dislike Harry Potter - at least the books.

People say they're not just for kids, but also for adults, but then when you say things like 'So the new Professor is called Lupine and there's a were-wolf running around' - they go 'Oh, give it a break, it's just for kids'. Still, I was hoping that as the books got longer, they'd get more mature - unfortunately, it just turned out there were more words in them. When I ended Goblet of Fire, I just looked at the width of it, thinking you wasted that many words for that ending? And don't get me started on her world-building or prose...

Then there was that infamous interview where the author of the world's best-selling fantasy books said something like 'Yeah, I don't really think of myself as writing fantasy' and all the nerds (the original nerds not the HP nerds) went 'Phew, neither do we, luv.' It's been quite nice these past couple of years when suddenly everyone else hates her as well.

Sorry about that. Anyway, it's probably better than the hundreth discussion of why the Last Jedi sucks.

 

[Altissimus]

For what it's worth, I'll go further than NTH and state that I actively dislike Harry Potter - at least the books.

And I didn't like the films - they left out so much. I think there's quite a lot to not like about HP, but on balance, I like it.

Sorry about that. Anyway, it's probably better than the hundreth discussion of why the Last Jedi sucks.

Star Wars, on the other hand, left me cold - original trilogy aside.

 

[SimonDoom]

Overall I agree. I've always thought that one of the most underrated aspects of great erotica is that the main character must have a goal outside of the sex. If i'm working on a story and i like the idea but it doesn't feel hot enough, i remind myself of this rule and give the character a goal, it always helps fix the problem.

This is great advice. I should try to follow it more. The secret spice to a great story is the secondary goal/plot. It works in movies and books and it can work in erotica.

To tie this in to the OP's theme, consider the superheroes Spiderman, or Superman, or Batman. They all have love interests of one kind or another. Romance gives the character more depth, more vulnerability, and also complicates the hero's task of saving the world.

Even in a silly mom-son incest story, if you give one or more of the characters a little more motivation than "I saw my son's big cock and couldn't help myself" it enriches the story. It makes it more interesting, and it makes it more erotic, too.

 

[Bamagan]

This is great advice. I should try to follow it more. The secret spice to a great story is the secondary goal/plot. It works in movies and books and it can work in erotica.

To tie this in to the OP's theme, consider the superheroes Spiderman, or Superman, or Batman. They all have love interests of one kind or another. Romance gives the character more depth, more vulnerability, and also complicates the hero's task of saving the world.

Even in a silly mom-son incest story, if you give one or more of the characters a little more motivation than "I saw my son's big cock and couldn't help myself" it enriches the story. It makes it more interesting, and it makes it more erotic, too.

For example, the mom in question could be a farmer or biologist or something, and be thrilled at the idea of having a son-and-grandson by her first son, who, thanks to selective in-breeding, will have an even bigger cock for her to enjoy.

 

[alohadave]

And I like Miles more than Peter.

The Miles Morales movies have been bangers. Probably the best Spider-Man movies. And Spider Gwen...

 

[Cali_Love]

Paint the background a million different ways, it’s all the same to some degree. Grandpa gifted me Hero With a Thousand Faces when I was knee high. Star Wars, Marvel, Tolkien, Pixar, Jane Austen, yeah. You can see it, right? With my creative outlet de jour being sort of storytelling, it’s almost a reflex.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

 

[Altissimus]

Even in a silly mom-son incest story, if you give one or more of the characters a little more motivation than "I saw my son's big cock and couldn't help myself" it enriches the story. It makes it more interesting, and it makes it more erotic, too.

It's not a genre I ever read, but I'd be amazed if more than 1% of such stories incorporated 'a little more motivation'.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Wow. You guys think a LOT into this. I just write fun, sexy stories. Anything deeper that happens during the story just seems to happen. I don't actually plan it out.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's not a genre I ever read, but I'd be amazed if more than 1% of such stories incorporated 'a little more motivation'.

No, you would be surprised. It's a lot more than that. Often the secondary goal isn't that well developed, but it's still something. For instance, Mom is dissatisfied with husband, and son steps in and fulfills her. Or Mom has some sort of project to do, and enlists son's help, and somehow it becomes sexual.