Song lyrics in stories

[ShelbyDawn57]

Thanks for all who have offered a voice in this.

After significant research, I have discovered that while it may be admissible by the admins of this site, the use of copyrighted song lyrics in fiction falls outside 'fair use' as what we do is not educational(I know, I know, we can debate this, but seriously).

As for transformative, the legal opinion I found states that because song lyrics are so short, the percentage of usage is burdensome and while it might be found acceptable in court, that would be an expensive way to find out.

Options are to find a song that is public domain, to get permission, which since we are writing erotica might be problematic, or to just use the song as a reference without quoting lyrics.

Thanks again. Continue discussing if you wish. I have my plan of action. Thanks again.


EDIT:

MC has been asked to sing the song with a small group performing traditional folk music.

---

“Just relax and listen to the music.” Cloe smiled and put her fiddle to her chin. Iain started beating a rhythm with his drum. Sean joined in on his concertina. That’s what the small accordion was called. Cloe joined on her fiddle and started humming the melody in an ethereal soprano, floating lightly above the sound of her fiddle.

I scanned the lyrics. It was called ‘My Mother’s Savage Daughter’ and spoke of a daughter that was outside the lines, rebellious, a girl with her own distinctive voice. It was an anthem to being oneself.

I could do this. Cloe was looking at me with anticipation in her eyes. I nodded.

She sang a verse and nodded at me. I joined her for the chorus. Cloe and I had a natural harmony. My lower notes added an almost angry feeling to the words.

Two more verses. I could feel our words getting stronger and fiercer. I was the savage daughter. Outside the norm, beyond what anybody expected a girl to be. The challenges I was facing were the sharp stones I cursed. The words filled me with a feeling of power, almost rage.

We sang the last chorus three times, except it was “We” not “I.” This was a song for all women, even women like me. Maybe especially women like me. Iain’s drum got louder and louder as he fed on our voices, as if he were driving us to go further.

As Cloe and I sang the last chorus again and again, I felt this surge of confidence coursing through me. That last line was so ironic in its symbolism. No, I would not cut my hair. I would not be quiet. I would be me.

They played another chorus with just the instruments while I caught my breath and laughed.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

What exactly do you think I'm wrong about?

the copyright holder outranks Laurel every time

Not where the contents of this site are concerned. In a court of law, maybe.

Laurel could violate the law if she chose to. She is the one that would face the consequences, but the choice is still only hers (and Manu's?) to make.

 

[jhealy55]

I've used song references and snippets of lyric in one of my stories, but its always in someone listening to or having the named song playing in the background to evoke a mood.

Didn't really think it through as a copyright issue as much as a pop culture reference where I'm saying they were listening to Lana Del Rey In the same way they were drinking Coca Cola from glass bottles on a hot day. No intent/effort to pass off their song or product as my own invention.

Curiously the chapter where I did this most is also the highest rated submission I have. Several readers made the effort to tell me how much the reference to the songs enhanced their appreciation for the scene.

Think you can also allude to specific songs, like Iggy Azalea rapping about, 'first things first.'. you won't need a lot of lyrics spelled out for those who recognize the song or can Google it pretty easily.

I have thought about a series of short stories, focused on a sexual encounter tied to a specific song in each. A lot of my memories of erotic encounters are interlaced with the music that was playing in the run up or during those encounters.

Love the idea of a period vignette tied to a song that really evokes the era when occurred. The early 70's were well before my time, but "go all the way" by the raspberries feels ripe for building a sort of one hit wonder encounter where tube tops and cut off shorts get flung aside in the heat of the moment.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I've used song references and snippets of lyric in one of my stories, but its always in someone listening to or having the named song playing in the background to evoke a mood.

Didn't really think it through as a copyright issue as much as a pop culture reference where I'm saying they were listening to Lana Del Rey In the same way they were drinking Coca Cola from glass bottles on a hot day. No intent/effort to pass off their song or product as my own invention.

Curiously the chapter where I did this most is also the highest rated submission I have. Several readers made the effort to tell me how much the reference to the songs enhanced their appreciation for the scene.

Think you can also allude to specific songs, like Iggy Azalea rapping about, 'first things first.'. you won't need a lot of lyrics spelled out for those who recognize the song or can Google it pretty easily.

I have thought about a series of short stories, focused on a sexual encounter tied to a specific song in each. A lot of my memories of erotic encounters are interlaced with the music that was playing in the run up or during those encounters.

Love the idea of a period vignette tied to a song that really evokes the era when occurred. The early 70's were well before my time, but "go all the way" by the raspberries feels ripe for building a sort of one hit wonder encounter where tube tops and cut off shorts get flung aside in the heat of the moment.

70's huh? How about some Aerosmith. maybe 'Walk this Way' or 'Big Ten Inch'?

 

[UnquietDreams]

(snip)
When I looked up the issue of copyright infringement and "fair use", I found the caveat: "It often involves transformative use, where the work is repurposed in a new context."

So, I think the fair use rule would apply for limited use of the written lyrics in an erotic story, since it's transformed from the artist's audio work.

Transformative use would be repurposing something completely, not using it in a different context. The primary use of that is when a work falls under parody. Weird Al, for example, would be covered in parodying song, even though he is meticulous about getting permission beforehand. A better example is when 2 Live Crew satirized Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman" in "Pretty Woman." The publishing company (not the artists who wrote it) took them to court. It went all the way to the Supremes in '94, who came down on the side of parody being protected. That is what transitive means in this case.

Quoting outright is defined as non-transitive, legally speaking. So changing the venue, as such, isn't enough to show a use is transitive.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Transformative use would be repurposing something completely, not using it in a different context. The primary use of that is when a work falls under parody. Weird Al, for example, would be covered in parodying song, even though he is meticulous about getting permission beforehand. A better example is when 2 Live Crew satirized Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman" in "Pretty Woman." The publishing company (not the artists who wrote it) took them to court. It went all the way to the Supremes in '94, who came down on the side of parody being protected. That is what transitive means in this case.

Quoting outright is defined as non-transitive, legally speaking. So changing the venue, as such, isn't enough to show a use is transitive.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation. AS for my case, I could ask for permission, but that puts me on the radar. better to just rewrite as I did above, referencing the song and describing the impact of singing it, but directly quoting the lyrics.

 

[KeithD]

Working on a story that has significant lyrics from two songs in one section. Is it sufficient to give credit to the song writers at the end of the story, or is it just not allowed, or does no one care?

It's not like I'm doing this for profit, so copyright violation is questionable

The violation is in using more than conventionally permitted (two lines). You don't have to give explicit credit for two lines (rendered between quote marks). Saying where you got the use of more than this from the origiinal is only helping the property owner highlight what you've stolen and reused and establishes that you knew you had done so.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The violation is in using more than conventionally permitted (two lines). You don't have to give explicit credit for two lines (rendered between quote marks). Saying where you got the use of more than this from the origiinal is only helping the property owner highlight what you've stolen and reused and establishes that you knew you had done so.

Yup. Already established. Thanks, though. Rewrote to remove direct quotes while still effectively referencing the impact of the song on the MC.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Transformative use would be repurposing something completely, not using it in a different context. The primary use of that is when a work falls under parody. Weird Al, for example, would be covered in parodying song, even though he is meticulous about getting permission beforehand. A better example is when 2 Live Crew satirized Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman" in "Pretty Woman." The publishing company (not the artists who wrote it) took them to court. It went all the way to the Supremes in '94, who came down on the side of parody being protected. That is what transitive means in this case.

Quoting outright is defined as non-transitive, legally speaking. So changing the venue, as such, isn't enough to show a use is transitive.

The way you are using transformative and repurposing uses the same venue, one song being transformed by parody into another song. But the examples you're using are taking the instrumentals and melody and changing the lyrics with different, but now new original parody lyrics.

Now if you're taking the entire song and writing the story with the exact lyrics, making it appear as if you wrote those lyrics, that would be going beyond refencing, and be considered stealing the author's work and original intent.

In the venue of writing, research papers or works of fiction, I would think the copyright protections of lyrics would be similar to quoting other reference materials. As long as you are footnoting the reference and attributing credit to the original author, it would be seen as a reference. And using a portion of the lyrics as I have in a prologue (with credit to the original) is more like advertising: "If you want the feel of the story, buy this song and play the instrumentals and melody, while focusing on these lines before continuing." But there are various websites which post song lyrics as their content, while listing the artists and dates of the song. And doing the same within a story is no more of a violation than that.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

The way you are using transformative and repurposing uses the same venue, one song being transformed by parody into another song. But the examples you're using are taking the instrumentals and melody and changing the lyrics with different, but now new original parody lyrics.

Now if you're taking the entire song and writing the story with the exact lyrics, making it appear as if you wrote those lyrics, that would be going beyond refencing, and be considered stealing the author's work and original intent.

In the venue of writing, research papers or works of fiction, I would think the copyright protections of lyrics would be similar to quoting other reference materials. As long as you are footnoting the reference and attributing credit to the original author, it would be seen as a reference. And using a portion of the lyrics as I have in a prologue (with credit to the original) is more like advertising: "If you want the feel of the story, buy this song and play the instrumentals and melody, while focusing on these lines before continuing." But there are various websites which post song lyrics as their content, while listing the artists and dates of the song. And doing the same within a story is no more of a violation than that.

And those sites are currently under attack by the NMPA, according to NPR...

 

[UnquietDreams]

The way you are using transformative and repurposing uses the same venue, one song being transformed by parody into another song. But the examples you're using are taking the instrumentals and melody and changing the lyrics with different, but now new original parody lyrics.

Now if you're taking the entire song and writing the story with the exact lyrics, making it appear as if you wrote those lyrics, that would be going beyond refencing, and be considered stealing the author's work and original intent.

In the venue of writing, research papers or works of fiction, I would think the copyright protections of lyrics would be similar to quoting other reference materials. As long as you are footnoting the reference and attributing credit to the original author, it would be seen as a reference. And using a portion of the lyrics as I have in a prologue (with credit to the original) is more like advertising: "If you want the feel of the story, buy this song and play the instrumentals and melody, while focusing on these lines before continuing." But there are various websites which post song lyrics as their content, while listing the artists and dates of the song. And doing the same within a story is no more of a violation than that.

It is more cut and dried in non-fiction, as the Copyright Act spells out a framework for research and review. Even then, it is still argued in court, though I think this has far more to do with the litigiousness of production companies who own the copyrights than with the artists themselves.

Fiction doesn't even have that framework, so it gets resolved on a case-by-case basis, from what I have seen. I think the OP's revised example works as well as quoting the lyrics themselves. (I actually wrote a whole response to that, but it seems to have gotten lost).

 

[UnquietDreams]

Thanks for all who have offered a voice in this.

After significant research, I have discovered that while it may be admissible by the admins of this site, the use of copyrighted song lyrics in fiction falls outside 'fair use' as what we do is not educational(I know, I know, we can debate this, but seriously).

As for transformative, the legal opinion I found states that because song lyrics are so short, the percentage of usage is burdensome and while it might be found acceptable in court, that would be an expensive way to find out.

Options are to find a song that is public domain, to get permission, which since we are writing erotica might be problematic, or to just use the song as a reference without quoting lyrics.

Thanks again. Continue discussing if you wish. I have my plan of action. Thanks again.


EDIT:

MC has been asked to sing the song with a small group performing traditional folk music.

---

“Just relax and listen to the music.” Cloe smiled and put her fiddle to her chin. Iain started beating a rhythm with his drum. Sean joined in on his concertina. That’s what the small accordion was called. Cloe joined on her fiddle and started humming the melody in an ethereal soprano, floating lightly above the sound of her fiddle.

I scanned the lyrics. It was called ‘My Mother’s Savage Daughter’ and spoke of a daughter that was outside the lines, rebellious, a girl with her own distinctive voice. It was an anthem to being oneself.

I could do this. Cloe was looking at me with anticipation in her eyes. I nodded.

She sang a verse and nodded at me. I joined her for the chorus. Cloe and I had a natural harmony. My lower notes added an almost angry feeling to the words.

Two more verses. I could feel our words getting stronger and fiercer. I was the savage daughter. Outside the norm, beyond what anybody expected a girl to be. The challenges I was facing were the sharp stones I cursed. The words filled me with a feeling of power, almost rage.

We sang the last chorus three times, except it was “We” not “I.” This was a song for all women, even women like me. Maybe especially women like me. Iain’s drum got louder and louder as he fed on our voices, as if he were driving us to go further.

As Cloe and I sang the last chorus again and again, I felt this surge of confidence coursing through me. That last line was so ironic in its symbolism. No, I would not cut my hair. I would not be quiet. I would be me.

They played another chorus with just the instruments while I caught my breath and laughed.

I wrote this out once, but it seems to have gotten lost, heh.

My favorite novel is an urban fantasy that involves a rock and roll singer and her band that get drafted into a war between two fairy courts in modern-day Minneapolis. The author uses titles (which cannot be copyrighted, per case law), and describes the songs in her own words, but only directly quotes lyrics she wrote specifically. And it works really well, and had me exploring artists that I hadn't heard before, expanding my own musical lexicon.

The snippet you provided works in the same way. I don't see that avoiding direct quotations weakens it in the slightest. It still invokes the power of the original while adding why as context through the main character, so you could argue it works better.

I look forward to reading the whole.

 

[Lifestyle66]

And those sites are currently under attack by the NMPA, according to NPR...

That article is over nine years old and it describes the fight against money-making website posting lyrics as content to attract views for their ads.

There is no repurposing there, merely using the written words of the artist to make money.

It is more cut and dried in non-fiction, as the Copyright Act spells out a framework for research and review. Even then, it is still argued in court, though I think this has far more to do with the litigiousness of production companies who own the copyrights than with the artists themselves.

Fiction doesn't even have that framework, so it gets resolved on a case-by-case basis, from what I have seen. I think the OP's revised example works as well as quoting the lyrics themselves. (I actually wrote a whole response to that, but it seems to have gotten lost).

In the case of production companies litigating, they're looking for "deep pockets", a way of making money from that other money-making website which posts the lyrics as content.

I would think the use of some song lyrics, when quoted and credited to the artist, is not a copyright violation, but more like writing the story as "When reading this, imagine you're hearing this song." It's like describing the taste of a meal or a good wine. It's used to contribute to the sensory background.

 

[UnquietDreams]

That article is over nine years old and it describes the fight against money-making website posting lyrics as content to attract views for their ads.

There is no repurposing there, merely using the written words of the artist to make money.

In the case of production companies litigating, they're looking for "deep pockets", a way of making money from that other money-making website which posts the lyrics as content.

I would think the use of some song lyrics, when quoted and credited to the artist, is not a copyright violation, but more like writing the story as "When reading this, imagine you're hearing this song." It's like describing the taste of a meal or a good wine. It's used to contribute to the sensory background.

I am a big fan of Rick Beato's YouTube page, where he breaks down songs to see why they work and sometimes don't. By the Copyright Act's framework, it falls pretty well into acceptable under fair use. But he also knows that there are artist's companies who are infamous for submitting DMCA complaints for even the smallest of snippets, forcing him to work around it, in one case playing a very small part of an Eagles riff in a different key, with a couple of wrong notes on purpose, and they still sent him a C&D.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I wrote this out once, but it seems to have gotten lost, heh.

My favorite novel is an urban fantasy that involves a rock and roll singer and her band that get drafted into a war between two fairy courts in modern-day Minneapolis. The author uses titles (which cannot be copyrighted, per case law), and describes the songs in her own words, but only directly quotes lyrics she wrote specifically. And it works really well, and had me exploring artists that I hadn't heard before, expanding my own musical lexicon.

The snippet you provided works in the same way. I don't see that avoiding direct quotations weakens it in the slightest. It still invokes the power of the original while adding why as context through the main character, so you could argue it works better.

I look forward to reading the whole.

Thanks. I think it's better without the lyrics. If I'd left them in, I'd be assuming the readers would react to them as my MC did. By rewriting, I get to describe exactly how she reacted and why. Much better. IMHO...

 

[Lifestyle66]

I am a big fan of Rick Beato's YouTube page, where he breaks down songs to see why they work and sometimes don't. By the Copyright Act's framework, it falls pretty well into acceptable under fair use. But he also knows that there are artist's companies who are infamous for submitting DMCA complaints for even the smallest of snippets, forcing him to work around it, in one case playing a very small part of an Eagles riff in a different key, with a couple of wrong notes on purpose, and they still sent him a C&D.

I agree that if he was playing the song, even in snippets, he's skirting the edge of infringement.

But that was an audio venue, playing the original song in its original format.

If I were to take one of my stories (listed below,) where I added some of the song lyrics with appropriate reference to the artist, and I made that into an audio book with the original song snippet as the intro, then that would be a similar copyright violation.

I think that quoting some lyrics as reference and crediting the artist is more like adding sensory data to a story background or setting the scene.

 

[UnquietDreams]

I agree that if he was playing the song, even in snippets, he's skirting the edge of infringement.

But that was an audio venue, playing the original song in its original format.

If I were to take one of my stories (listed below,) where I added some of the song lyrics with appropriate reference to the artist, and I made that into an audio book with the original song snippet as the intro, then that would be a similar copyright violation.

I think that quoting some lyrics as reference and crediting the artist is more like adding sensory data to a story background or setting the scene.

Oh, it is more than snippets. He is a professional producer, and uses his studio equipment and contacts (in some cases getting the original multi-track recording in raw form) to separate out, for example, a guitar line from the rest of the song. It is in - depth analysis from an industry professional on the technical and music theory portions of popular music. Most artists embrace it, even to the point of being interviewed as to why they did something. (The interview with Peter Frampton is a favorite.) It is a little "Inside Baseball" for a lot of people, but for viewers who are interested in the foundations of music, it is fantastic.

But regardless of it being proven to be an academic pursuit, and within legal standards, the "ban hammer" still exists and is wielded by certain companies. He just accepts that.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Oh, it is more than snippets. He is a professional producer, and uses his studio equipment and contacts (in some cases getting the original multi-track recording in raw form) to separate out, for example, a guitar line from the rest of the song. It is in - depth analysis from an industry professional on the technical and music theory portions of popular music. Most artists embrace it, even to the point of being interviewed as to why they did something. (The interview with Peter Frampton is a favorite.) It is a little "Inside Baseball" for a lot of people, but for viewers who are interested in the foundations of music, it is fantastic.

But regardless of it being proven to be an academic pursuit, and within legal standards, the "ban hammer" still exists and is wielded by certain companies. He just accepts that.

It sounds like a case of "If you get deep pockets, we want a piece of the action."

In my understanding of civil court actions, a judge would first ask "Did the copyright holder make any attempt to issue a "take down" request? If not, then what do they want the court to do? Order it taken down?

Civil courts don't look to provide punitive fines in individual cases but are more like "We're not sending him to prison for using your 'was' versus a generic 'were' word issue."

And frankly, if a copyright owner told me to take down my shitty writing, the world might be a better place.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Oh my god yes! Ellie's voice in their live "pool sessions" rendition of How can I make it OK sends shivers up my spine. Her song is balm for my soul She hits this note at 4:18 that, I swear to god, if it was the last thing I heard in life, then I'd die blessed.

I saw them in London (well Cambridge) with friends when I was studying there. Amazing presence. And my silly story is that Ellie bumped into me post gig route to the bar. Didn’t realize how tall she was. They opened with Your Love’s Whore.