NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

[eyer]

Thanks to bb for posting this nugget in another thread...

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants

National Security Agency discloses in secret Capitol Hill briefing that thousands of analysts can listen to domestic phone calls. That authorization appears to extend to e-mail and text messages too.

...Rep. Nadler's disclosure that NSA analysts can listen to calls without court orders came during a House Judiciary hearing on Thursday that included FBI director Robert Mueller as a witness.

Mueller initially sought to downplay concerns about NSA surveillance by claiming that, to listen to a phone call, the government would need to seek "a special, a particularized order from the FISA court directed at that particular phone of that particular individual."

Is information about that procedure "classified in any way?" Nadler asked.

"I don't think so," Mueller replied.

"Then I can say the following," Nadler said. "We heard precisely the opposite at the briefing the other day. We heard precisely that you could get the specific information from that telephone simply based on an analyst deciding that...In other words, what you just said is incorrect. So there's a conflict."

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), the head of the Senate Intelligence committee, separately acknowledged this week that the agency's analysts have the ability to access the "content of a call."

...anyone who still fantasizes that the Executive branch of the United Socialist State of America is not totally trampling over the inherent 4th Amendment rights of every citizen should stfu, take an extra gulp of collective cud, and just keep meandering silently along with the rest of the apathetic heard until the edge of the cliff thankfully greets them.

Former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente told CNN last month that, in national security investigations, the bureau can access records of a previously made telephone call. "All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not," he said. Clemente added in an appearance the next day that, thanks to the "intelligence community" -- an apparent reference to the NSA -- "there's a way to look at digital communications in the past."

Be clear: practically every significant exchange of information in the world today is conducted digitally, and the USSA's NSA (National Security Agency) is charged by the Executive branch to collect every bit of that data it can - whether domestic or foreign...

...the USSA tyrants have long had this collection ambition and have been continually building toward it through all the past years when such mass data retrieval and storage longings were ideals more than practicalities. But, today, those technical limitations have been overcome and collecting, recording, cataloging, and analyzing all the world's digital events - every single one of them - is well underway. The USSA has even covertly committed billions of American taxpayer dollars to completely fund NSA's next step in totally commanding digital surveillance of every American's life:

A portion of the NSA's mammoth data center in Bluffdale, Utah, scheduled to open this fall. (Credit: Getty Images)

How can this happen?

When those who swear to protect and defend the 4th are the very same ones who deem to work around it to pursue whatever objectives they hold dearer, the 4th - obviously - losses its inherent superiority as the law of the land and simply becomes just another consideration of man...

...read these words carefully:

AT&T and other telecommunications companies that allow the NSA to tap into their fiber links receive absolute immunity from civil liability or criminal prosecution, thanks to a law that Congress enacted in 2008 and renewed in 2012. It's a series of amendments to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, also known as the FISA Amendments Act.

That law says surveillance may be authorized by the attorney general and director of national intelligence without prior approval by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, as long as minimization requirements and general procedures blessed by the court are followed.

A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA "may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States." A possible interpretation of that language, some legal experts said, is that the agency may vacuum up everything it can domestically -- on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to "target" a specific American citizen.

...[former Director of National Intelligence Michael] McConnell said during a separate congressional appearance around the same time [2007] that he believed the president had the constitutional authority, no matter what the law actually says, to order domestic spying without warrants.

What's not so surprising is hearing/reading so many lemming Americans who don't seem bothered at all when presented the "news" that their USSA government has every citizen under 24/7/365 digital surveillance. Either is it that surprising reading all the statists on LIT who continue to maintain that USSA government goons don't have content-access to every American's digital life...

...because when the concrete proof is presented completely disproving their erroneous position, they still defend their statist government's ability to fully violate the constitutional rights of all Americans.

Statists are simply those who champion a nation of men...

...rather than revere a nation of law.

What's going to be interesting is experiencing the developments as the world comes to realize/understand that the USSA isn't just accessing all the digital events of Americans' lives, but also of all of theirs...

...sorry America, but the statist government you've allowed to prevail is taking you down to the level all statist governments command their subjects to exist at.

We the People doesn't mean squat...

...unless the people actually uphold their inherent charge to be the master of all government.

 

[Squibbs]

Is this breaking news or something?

Are you that dumb that you thought you weren't being listened to?

Oh wait, you did start this thread...

 

[imalickin]

There are 8,736 hours in a year. (24/7/52)

Not 61,320 hours. (24/7/365)

The correct extension of the 24/7 idiom would be 1 of the following....

1. 24/7/52
2. 24/365

24/7/365 is just hideously wrong, it make absolutely no sense.

 

[Beco]

After much thought, yes, I think from time to time, I don't think this is that big a deal...Im guessing the govt isnt listening to you talk about your kids, how you hate your job or that you banged your sister-in-law....

If they were really listening, they would have caught those jerks who set off the Boston bombs...

 

[mercury14]

Eyer, this isn't news. We already knew that the NSA can intercept communications from foreign suspects. This is the law that allows us to listen to Al Qaeda operatives overseas. To be clear, the law says that:

1) The target has to be outside of the United States. But if they're doing something like spoofing their IP address to make it look like they're in Seattle instead of Riyadh then the NSA isn't af fault.

2) The surveillance must be compliant with the 4th Amendment of the Constitution.

3) Ordering an electronic communication provider to permit the NSA listening in on calls must go through the FISA court. If it's deemed an emergency by the Attorney General then the surveillance can proceed with his order but the case has 7 days to retroactively go to the court for review.

4) The AG and Director of National Intelligence must submit a report of their targeting to Congress for oversight.

5) The Inspector General also checks their activity for compliance to the law.


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR06304:@@@D&summ2=m&

 

[mercury14]

After much thought, yes, I think from time to time, I don't think this is that big a deal...Im guessing the govt isnt listening to you talk about your kids, how you hate your job or that you banged your sister-in-law....

If they were really listening, they would have caught those jerks who set off the Boston bombs...

The Boston bombers were not overseas, therefore they could not be targeted by this program. Basically you and Eyer don't know what you're talking about. If you'd like to become informed on the topic then you can read the law I linked.

 

[imalickin]

The Boston bombers were not overseas, therefore they could not be targeted by this program. Basically you and Eyer don't know what you're talking about. If you'd like to become informed on the topic then you can read the law I linked.

By you...that's a laugh.

 

[kbate]

The Boston bombers were not overseas, therefore they could not be targeted by this program. Basically you and Eyer don't know what you're talking about. If you'd like to become informed on the topic then you can read the law I linked.

Because it is impossible for a law to be ignored or broken. It says so in the law, so it must be exactly that way.

There's no such thing as drunk driving - there's a law against it.
nobody has ever used or sold drugs, never a murder, no fraud, no assaults, no rapes, the prisons stand empty waiting for well - nothing because laws prevent crime.

 

[mercury14]

Because it is impossible for a law to be ignored or broken. It says so in the law, so it must be exactly that way.

There's no such thing as drunk driving - there's a law against it.
nobody has ever used or sold drugs, never a murder, no fraud, no assaults, no rapes, the prisons stand empty waiting for well - nothing because laws prevent crime.

Got any evidence that the NSA ignored the law? Congressional oversight evidence? Inspector General evidence?

No?

There's always the potential for abuse when human beings are involved but that doesn't make a program bad.

 

[kbate]

Got any evidence that the NSA ignored the law? Congressional oversight evidence? Inspector General evidence?

No?

There's always the potential for abuse when human beings are involved but that doesn't make a program bad.

Got any evidence that they didn't? Quoting the law is a pointless exercise in saying, "Government is perfect".

 

[Liar]

Got any evidence that the NSA ignored the law? Congressional oversight evidence? Inspector General evidence?

No?

There's always the potential for abuse when human beings are involved but that doesn't make a program bad.

Isolated cases of abuse is one concern, but is pretty clear cut. There are legal things people can do with the data, and illegal things. Do the illegal things and you're a criminal. The problem there is lack of sunshine. What is a citizen's recourse if he/she is a victim of said abuse? What are the consequenses?

The other concern is feature creep. Which current practice frankly seems to be a result of. Programs like this (and programs in general), do as a general rule expand in scope over time, little by little, with the best of intentions. A nudge here, a more liberal interpretation there, a temporary 'emergency exception' that becomes a normative praxis, and so on. "Hey, we already do X, how much worse would it be if we also did a little Y?"

 

[mercury14]

Isolated cases of abuse is one concern, but is pretty clear cut. There are legal things people can do with the data, and illegal things. Do the illegal things and you're a criminal. The problem there is lack of sunshine. What is a citizen's recourse if he/she is a victim of said abuse? What are the consequenses?

The other concern is feature creep. Which current practice frankly seems to be a result of. Programs like this (and programs in general), do as a general rule expand in scope over time, little by little, with the best of intentions. A nudge here, a more liberal interpretation there, a temporary 'emergency exception' that becomes a normative praxis, and so on. "Hey, we already do X, how much worse would it be if we also did a little Y?"

A valid concern but the Patriot Act has seen a net shrinkage since its inception with the areas of expansion being mostly just realms where clarification was necessary.

 

[mercury14]

Got any evidence that they didn't? Quoting the law is a pointless exercise in saying, "Government is perfect".

Perfect? There you go with that hyperbole again.

And yes I think there's some evidence to suggest that the NSA hasn't abused its powers. They've been through a dozen years of IG inspections and dozens of bipartisan Congressional reviews, court reviews, and nothing has come up. Of course I can't prove that someone didn't do something that they successfully hid from inspectors and both their internal and external review processes... If this evidence doesn't satisfy you then what would?

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Got any evidence that the NSA ignored the law? Congressional oversight evidence? Inspector General evidence?

No?

There's always the potential for abuse when human beings are involved but that doesn't make a program bad.

You're wasting your time. 9/11 was an "inside job," JFK was assassinated by the CIA and every GS-9 analyst within the NSA would rather listen to high school girls gossiping about whether or not they intend to give up their virginity on prom night BECAUSE there's an extra thrill for civil servants in blatantly disregarding the very laws that Congress established prohibiting that specific illegal surveillance.

Compared to chasing potential terrorists planning to inflict mass casualties on American citizens, such lascivious temptation is simply too strong to resist.

Any evidence that illegal eavesdropping ever occurred ONCE is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT HAPPENS CONSTANTLY.

Any evidence that illegal eavesdropping ever occurred in ERROR is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT HAPPENS INTENTIONALLY.

Get with the program. You're falling behind.

 

[Liar]

You're wasting your time. 9/11 was an "inside job," JFK was assassinated by the CIA and every GS-9 analyst within the NSA would rather listen to high school girls gossiping about whether or not they intend to give up their virginity on prom night BECAUSE there's an extra thrill for civil servants in blatantly disregarding the very laws that Congress established prohibiting that specific illegal surveillance.

Compared to chasing potential terrorists planning to inflict mass casualties on American citizens, such lascivious temptation is simply to strong to resist.

Any evidence that illegal eavesdropping ever occurred ONCE is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT HAPPENS CONSTANTLY.

Any evidence that illegal eavesdropping ever occurred in ERROR is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT HAPPENS INTENTIONALLY.

Get with the program. You're falling behind.

What the balls?

 

[Sean Renaud]

What the balls?

Yeah, this subject pisses Hogan off, I already noticed it before. I'm not sure if I'm happy to know he's a real person with real emotions or if I'm terrified that he's pissed off and might simply decide he's been nice to all of us for more than long enough and it's time really rip our hearts out through our assholes.

 

[Liar]

A valid concern but the Patriot Act has seen a net shrinkage since its inception with the areas of expansion being mostly just realms where clarification was necessary.

Wasn't really talking about the Patriot Act, but about the NSA's telecommunication survillance efforts, which experienced a feature boom with the Patriot Act, but was a thing long prior to that. From what I can wean out of the news, it was at least once after the original Patriot Act expanded to authorize practices that were illegal - some of the stuff the Bush admin got in trouble for.

Also, I'm not all that read up on the Patriot Act. Care to name any examples of authorizations and practices in it's execution that has been scaled back?

 

[eyer]

RAF Menwith Hill in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, Great Britain

Menwith Hill was the birthplace of the USSA's Echelon project...

...which has turned into the worldwide surveillance operation the entire world is coming to know more of each passing day.

The 560-acre site was leased to the Americans in 1954 and the NSA has had a large presence there since 1966.

It has often been described as the biggest surveillance and interception facility in the world, and has 33 distinct white "radomes" that house satellite dishes. A US base in all but name, it has British intelligence analysts seconded to work alongside NSA colleagues, though it is unclear how the two agencies obtain and share intelligence – and under whose legal authority they are working under.

NSA targeted Dmitry Medvedev at London G20 summit
Leaked documents reveal Russian president was spied on during visit, as questions are raised over use of US base in Britain
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/16/nsa-dmitry-medvedev-g20-summit

Echelon was built by the NSA (read: political correct facade for CIA plausible deniability in re: to it being legally prohibited to operate domestically); Echelon's purpose was/is to capture all international digital transactions...

...at the same time, the FBI unleashed Carnivore to capture as much domestic digital activity as they possibly could at that technically-limited time. As was mentioned earlier, Carnivore was specifically ordered by Congress to be shut down; John Poindexter complied by shutting the name down and introducing us to what they decided to call it next: Total Information Awareness.

The statists in this thread don't quite seem to understand that the Spirit of '76 was envisioned eventually not only for all American individuals, but for all individuals the world over, too...

...individual liberty - of which individual privacy is a fundamental part of - is an inalienable gift of God and any man who denies a law-abiding individual that natural right in any way is a criminal to truth, justice, and the American way.

[Go see Man of Steel, now playing in theaters everywhere...]

The 4th Amendment of the Constitution for the United States of America:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Those who swear an oath to defend the 4th and then infringe upon it in any way are traitors...

...and those who support them are enemies, too, of individual liberty.

 

[Liar]

RAF Menwith Hill in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, Great Britain

In other news, unnamed sources say Russia is working on giant golf club wielding mechs.

 

[eyer]

With "allies" like these...

Britain's GCHC (Government Communications Headquarters) is the NSA's partner in international surveillance crime...

GCHQ intercepted foreign politicians' communications at G20 summits

Exclusive: phones were monitored and fake internet cafes set up to gather information from allies in London in 2009

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

...alas, the limey lemmings have long past submitted to their Leviathan's total surveillance of all things digital in Eric Arthur Blair's home country.

 

[KingOrfeo]

"You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

-- Scott McNealy

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Statists are simply those who champion a nation of men...

...rather than revere a nation of law.

Speaking of which, maybe you could start "revering" Fourth Amendment law as upheld by the Supreme Court in the cases of Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), Smith v. Maryland, 442 U. S. 735 (1979) and United States v. Miller, 425 U.S. 435 (1976).

Naaawwww, that would require you to honor and submit yourself to the authority of judicial review by the judiciary branch as held in Marbury vs. Madison, and all you liberty loving libertarians probably reserve the right of each individual to obey only those laws with which you personally agree.

Anything other than the anarchy of the individual would be too "statist" for you, right chief? You have about as much respect for the law as a serial rapist.

 

[mercury14]

RAF Menwith Hill in Harrogate, North Yorkshire, Great Britain

Menwith Hill was the birthplace of the USSA's Echelon project...

...which has turned into the worldwide surveillance operation the entire world is coming to know more of each passing day.

Oooh radomes! Scaaaary!

I used to work around these things and much, much more every day. I used to work in sight things that would make you forget all about the field of radomes right next to you. Don't worry bro, they won't hurt you.

I could point you to some things using Google Earth that would kick your paranoia meter up three or four notches.