Mixing categories

[ShelbyDawn57]

I've been thinking about this for a while. How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

A couple of examples...
One of my stories is a cornucopia. Posted as CD/Trans since the MC does full transition, but there are significant themes of NC to the point of sex slavery, BDSM, Fetish, and group sex. It's pretty dark but does manage a happy ending. No really, it does...
While I think it's a good overall story, and it has some very favorable comments, it has been rated pretty low for me. ( I am seriously considering having it moved to NC)

The other is a framed story with two friends rehashing the last ten years, specifically what happened to their marriages. It has a significant section that takes place on a swinger's cruise, so, yeah, group stuff. It was also posted in CD/Trans as the MC does transition. I think it's one of my better stories from a technical perspective. Again, it got good comments, but is rated below what I expected.

I don't want to mention the specific stories or go into details about ratings and expectations. I'd just like to have a more general discussion of the why's and why not's of crossing category boundaries and your experiences on the same.

 

[samhasstories]

I'm not particularly adventurous when it comes to category - I've mostly stayed in my Exhibitionist/Voyeur bubble. I would suspect, though, that some categories (E/V included) are more fluid than others. They center around themes that readers of a separate category aren't likely to be bothered by - i.e. a Romance story that includes some public (E/V) stuff probably won't trouble too many people, or vice versa.

I think other categories contain themes that readers in other areas may be less amenable to. If there's incest, it should probably be in the Incest/Taboo category, even if there's also romance and exhibitionism and BDSM and anal etc. etc. Unfortunately, that's probably true of CD/Trans as well - some readers, if they're not actively looking for that, might not want to see it. I would guess that applies to NC as well - people who like NC will look for it in that category, and people elsewhere might just not be into that.

Your first example might be a doomed either way kind of scenario. Doomed, that is, to maybe not garner a great rating. Not to say it shouldn't be done - it absolutely should be done if that's the story you want to tell. If you put it in NC, you may get some readers who don't want to read about CD/Trans. If you put it in CD/Trans, you might get readers put off by NC.

I guess that's where the tags come in, and the hope that people will look at them. And it's a good example of the limitations of the category system.

The second example is more surprising to me. If it's not in Romance, I would've guessed group stuff would be an okay-anywhere sort of theme. Just about all of my stories end up having group stuff, but I've never posted them in Group. But maybe the E/V readership is more amenable to that? It does imply an audience, which can lead to groupiness.

 

[karina_jayde]

I generally write in sci-fi fantasy, and my stories (even within a single series) can contain tons of different elements. Intense romance, BDSM, group sex, anal, anilingus, exhibitionism, etc. Never had any issues, but I do try to be as thorough with my tags as I can, so people know what they're getting into.

Speaking as a reader, I always check the tags. So I think if you're worried about stuff fitting into multiple categories I'd just try to be as thorough as you can with your tags, or maybe even include a further explanation of the themes/elements in an intro at the start of the story.

 

[AG31]

I've been thinking about this for a while. How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

I don't see how you can help mixing categories, given the logical overlap everywhere. And I really question whether readers stick to only one category. That would be nuts.

 

[SimonDoom]

I assume when you mean "risky" you mean "likely to result in some negative reader comments." The problem with focusing too much on this is that it fosters safe writing. Writing SHOULD be risky and fun and adventurous, not safe.

The short answer is yes, if you mix content from different categories, you may rouse the ire of the easily squicked. So what? I've written incest stories where I've had readers tell me thinks like "I hated the anal activity" or "I wasn't interested in all the exhibitionist stuff." But I also have readers who like it.

I'm a big believer in the concept of "erotic focus" -- the idea that an erotic story should have a clear erotic focus rather than trying to embrace too many kinks, but the reason for that is artistic and erotic rather than for the sake of avoiding reader criticism. That's the way I like stories. But maybe you don't.

Unfortunately, if you are writing stories about LGBTQ characters, and those stories delve into other kinks, some people who like those kinks will not like the LGBTQ themes. And vice versa. There's not much you can do about that. Like, for instance, gay incest. If you have a story about how son gets it on with mom, and then gets it on with dad, you're probably going to get some nastiness. But that doesn't mean it won't be a good story.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I assume when you mean "risky" you mean "likely to result in some negative reader comments." The problem with focusing too much on this is that it fosters safe writing. Writing SHOULD be risky and fun and adventurous, not safe.

The short answer is yes, if you mix content from different categories, you may rouse the ire of the easily squicked. So what? I've written incest stories where I've had readers tell me thinks like "I hated the anal activity" or "I wasn't interested in all the exhibitionist stuff." But I also have readers who like it.

I'm a big believer in the concept of "erotic focus" -- the idea that an erotic story should have a clear erotic focus rather than trying to embrace too many kinks, but the reason for that is artistic and erotic rather than for the sake of avoiding reader criticism. That's the way I like stories. But maybe you don't.

Unfortunately, if you are writing stories about LGBTQ characters, and those stories delve into other kinks, some people who like those kinks will not like the LGBTQ themes. And vice versa. There's not much you can do about that. Like, for instance, gay incest. If you have a story about how son gets it on with mom, and then gets it on with dad, you're probably going to get some nastiness. But that doesn't mean it won't be a good story.

Thanks. I definitely write for the story. I just happened to notice that the more egregious the category crossing, the more intense the response. Either in comments and messages, or in scores. Thought it would make for good discussion, and so far, it has...

 

[Cagivagurl]

I've been thinking about this for a while. How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

A couple of examples...
One of my stories is a cornucopia. Posted as CD/Trans since the MC does full transition, but there are significant themes of NC to the point of sex slavery, BDSM, Fetish, and group sex. It's pretty dark but does manage a happy ending. No really, it does...
While I think it's a good overall story, and it has some very favorable comments, it has been rated pretty low for me. ( I am seriously considering having it moved to NC)

The other is a framed story with two friends rehashing the last ten years, specifically what happened to their marriages. It has a significant section that takes place on a swinger's cruise, so, yeah, group stuff. It was also posted in CD/Trans as the MC does transition. I think it's one of my better stories from a technical perspective. Again, it got good comments, but is rated below what I expected.

I don't want to mention the specific stories or go into details about ratings and expectations. I'd just like to have a more general discussion of the why's and why not's of crossing category boundaries and your experiences on the same.

Let me say firstly. I am not an expert, and this is only my opinion.

It can create confusion in the readers.
I wrote a 17 chapter story, which was primarily posted in TG. I did however post two chapters in lesbian. That create some confusion, with emails and comments asking what happened too the missing chapters.

Some readers, only read one category. If you post over different categories, you run the risk of losing some readers.
Now, regardless of the content, I stick to one category. Readers do understand that stories flow, and might cover a lot of ground.
By and large, the TG readership are very understanding.

Cagivagurl

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Let me say firstly. I am not an expert, and this is only my opinion.

It can create confusion in the readers.
I wrote a 17 chapter story, which was primarily posted in TG. I did however post two chapters in lesbian. That create some confusion, with emails and comments asking what happened too the missing chapters.

Some readers, only read one category. If you post over different categories, you run the risk of losing some readers.
Now, regardless of the content, I stick to one category. Readers do understand that stories flow, and might cover a lot of ground.
By and large, the TG readership are very understanding.

Cagivagurl

And very supporting and appreciative.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Never had any issues, but I do try to be as thorough with my tags as I can, so people know what they're getting into.

That's the key as I see it. Certain categories are sort of mandatory. If it takes place in space, it's sci-fi/fantasy, if there's incest, it goes in I/T, same with cross/trans, non-con, gay male, and a couple of others. The reason I say mandatory is because you want to put the story where the target audience would go to look for it.

Then it's up to you to tag it well. Your sci-fi story might include cheating, which as we know, not every reader is down for. I also include a heads-up in my opening author's note, encouraging the reader to check the tags.

Mixing categories is gonna happen, sure as shootin'. Do the best you can when choosing where to put it, and tag well. You could also ask Laurel in the notes section of the submission form if she has an opinion on which category would be the best fit.

 

[BgDaddy33]

but I do try to be as thorough with my tags as I can, so people know what they're getting into.

Speaking as a reader, I always check the tags. So I think if you're worried about stuff fitting into multiple categories I'd just try to be as thorough as you can with your tags, or maybe even include a further explanation of the themes/elements in an intro at the start of the story.

This is good advice and a best practice

 

[Rob_Royale]

Some readers, only read one category. If you post over different categories, you run the risk of losing some readers.
Now, regardless of the content, I stick to one category.

Well yes and no. If your Ch. 1 is a lesbian story and Ch. 2 is a group sex story or romance, then yes, keep them in Lesbian if they remain lesbian stories. But if they do not, then changing categories is best. Spreading your work into other categories will only help you develop a wider readership. I think a reader who is not smart enough to look in your bio to find Ch. 2 because it's in another category would a small minority. Hopefully.

 

[Devinter]

And I really question whether readers stick to only one category. That would be nuts.

... Pretty sure you've said that all of your work revolves around one singular theme of 'male surrender'? How is reading one single category any worse than writing one single category? I'd argue it ought to be the other way around, if anything!

How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

Quite risky at times. I think I mentioned this before, but I wrote a story with a very clear Mature theme, between two women (and as such, a Lesbian relationship), revolving around a niche Fetish. I stuck it in Mature, and I probably shouldn't have. It would have done better in the Fetish category, I'm quite sure.

A little bit of overlap is normal. But some categories hold a stronger gravitational pull than others. And Non-Con is one of those for sure. If your story could fit well in there, then it probably belongs there, regardless of also fitting into another category or two as well. The only exception being Incest which seems to trump all else, for some reason.

 

[8letters]

Pick a category for your story and then write it to appeal to the readers of that category. You can include other kinks as long as you work them in in a way that appeals to the category readers.

One of my stories I haven't republished yet is a BDSM story for people who don't like BDSM stories (I/T readers typically don't like BDSM). It was a very well-liked story.

For grins, once I read a bunch of I/T stories with the "Group Sex" tag and a bunch of Group Sex stories with the "Incest" tag. There was one Group Sex story that would have fit perfectly in I/T. In many of the Group Sex stories, as soon as the characters got introduced, the clothes came off and the sex started. The incest was more a curiosity - would it actually happen? The I/T stories were slower to get to the sex and had more character development. The incest was front and center with the group sex something that added to the fun.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I've been thinking about this for a while. How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

A couple of examples...
One of my stories is a cornucopia. Posted as CD/Trans since the MC does full transition, but there are significant themes of NC to the point of sex slavery, BDSM, Fetish, and group sex. It's pretty dark but does manage a happy ending. No really, it does...
While I think it's a good overall story, and it has some very favorable comments, it has been rated pretty low for me. ( I am seriously considering having it moved to NC)

The other is a framed story with two friends rehashing the last ten years, specifically what happened to their marriages. It has a significant section that takes place on a swinger's cruise, so, yeah, group stuff. It was also posted in CD/Trans as the MC does transition. I think it's one of my better stories from a technical perspective. Again, it got good comments, but is rated below what I expected.

I don't want to mention the specific stories or go into details about ratings and expectations. I'd just like to have a more general discussion of the why's and why not's of crossing category boundaries and your experiences on the same.

Virtually everything I write crosses categories; even my early stories. I might have been a little more successful if I stuck to formulas, but I didn’t really want to.

Em

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Virtually everything I write crosses categories; even my early stories. I might have been a little more successful if I stuck to formulas, but I didn’t really want to.

Em

Please take this a the compliment it is intended to be, but since I met you on here, I've never gotten idea that you felt rules were more than guidelines. The whole Pirate Code and all that...

 

[Bamagan]

I've been thinking about this for a while. How common is it to blend or mix categories within a story, and from your experience, how risky is it?

That's pretty much all I do. My principal series involves mind control, incest (mother-daughter and sister-sister), pet play and some related BDSM, sex work (camming and escorting), permanent nudity, animal transformation (both partial and full, permanent and cyclical, i.e., full moon), lactation and adult nursing, public sex, and probably some others I'm forgetting. I have no idea how risky it was. I don't get a lot of comments, positive or negative, and I really don't know what appropriate comps for readership would be.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Well yes and no. If your Ch. 1 is a lesbian story and Ch. 2 is a group sex story or romance, then yes, keep them in Lesbian if they remain lesbian stories. But if they do not, then changing categories is best. Spreading your work into other categories will only help you develop a wider readership. I think a reader who is not smart enough to look in your bio to find Ch. 2 because it's in another category would a small minority. Hopefully.

I am not suggesting you write in only one category.
I write stories across several different categories. Romance, Lesbian, Mature, TG, LW. By all means stretch your wings and try them all. If that's your thing.
What I was trying to explain is.
If you have a multi chapter story that crosses several boundaries. it should stay in one category to save confusing readers.
Not everybody reads all categories.
In my case, the first 11 chapters posted in TG, I then posted 2 in Lesbian... Of course the readers who do not usually read lesbian stories missed the posting. It meant that they missed two chapters which were relevant to the story line. When The newer chapters appeared in TG again. It created confusion for them.
In my opinion. Let the story run in the category it mostly fits.

If it is a good story, and readers are expectantly waiting for chapter 12, and they miss it. You run the risk of losing them for the rest of the story...

My experience tells me. Make it easy for the people who are following your story.

Cagivagurl

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't want to mention the specific stories or go into details about ratings and expectations. I'd just like to have a more general discussion of the why's and why not's of crossing category boundaries and your experiences on the same.

I've just said in another thread that my gut feel is that the majority of readers are very category specific, and don't often wander outside their park. Which is one reason not to category jump - you'll get people reading one chapter, who don't give a fuck about the rest. They're not really interested in your story, only interested in how you satisfy them.

The problem with smorgasbord stories, which so many writers feel they must write, is that the wide range of kinks is invariably going to upset someone, and leave others dissatisfied because you've gone straight onto the next kink.

I reckon it's better to give readers a substantial meal in one category, and write a separate story for the next. You can't please everybody all the time, so you might as well make a smaller group deliriously happy every time.

TLDR: don't jump categories in the one story. Write different stories.

 

[AG31]

... Pretty sure you've said that all of your work revolves around one singular theme of 'male surrender'? How is reading one single category any worse than writing one single category? I'd argue it ought to be the other way around, if anything!

Sure. And I look for male surrender in BDSM, Fetish and NC/R when I'm looking for stories.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That's pretty much all I do. My principal series involves mind control, incest (mother-daughter and sister-sister), pet play and some related BDSM, sex work (camming and escorting), permanent nudity, animal transformation (both partial and full, permanent and cyclical, i.e., full moon), lactation and adult nursing, public sex, and probably some others I'm forgetting. I have no idea how risky it was. I don't get a lot of comments, positive or negative, and I really don't know what appropriate comps for readership would be.

I’m so fucking vanilla

Em

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I’m so fucking vanilla

Em

The emoticon for how funny that is hasn’t been designed yet…

 

[EmilyMiller]

The emoticon for how funny that is hasn’t been designed yet…

——

 

[Kelliezgirl]

As mentioned, I think some of the categories are a bit more rigid than others, and it depends on how far you go with the kink. I'm not really into BDSM, but several of my stories (in I/T, Romance, and EC) have had a light bondage element and they've gotten good scores and no complaints in the comments. Part of that is the whole "What's the difference between kinky and perverted?" Kinky is when you use a feather, perverted is when the whole chicken is involved.
My bondage is definitely of the feather variety.

 

[RejectReality]

Can't recommend category hopping. Look for an overarching theme and put it there. If there's absolutely nothing that ties everything together, I'd still go for a generic category ( EC, N&N ) and put it all there.

Some stories are going to range too far in too many directions to ever get what you may consider a "good" response. You're not going to ever have enough of the content group A is looking for, and far too much of what group B is looking for, which makes A gag. But there's still not enough of B to satisfy Group B, and A bores them. It's a no "win" situation.

You're still going to have readers who enjoy it. They're probably not going to outnumber the people who abandon it or slam it, but it's more or less inevitable on a site with this much traffic that you're going to find an appreciative audience.

As far as the examples above go ( from the text here, anyway ) they sound like they were categorized correctly in T&CD. I'm getting the impression it was a journey, and the pay off was the transition. If that journey was playing out through the whole story and not just footnotes between sex scenes, then it's right where it belongs. That doesn't mean it's going to do well. People are easily turned off by non-con of any kind. Fetish is always a narrow focus. You're going to lose people along the way in a story like that.

Obviously what you want to write, so write it for those readers who enjoy it, and curb your expectations. That's what you have to do when you're writing on the edges. Get your smiles from those few kinky souls who share your wonderful little perversions and come along on the journey with you.

Write it first, determine the best possible venue once it's done, and then adjust your expectations accordingly.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

——

K. Been trying. I got nothing. I submit…